============ OGREverse list, Jan 17th (Last: Jan 14th) ============= ===== Ogre Construction designer notes From: Thomas_Jones-Low@idx.com ===== Caught on the jump From: Chris Camfield ===== BPC Armor From: "Garth L. Getgen" ------------------------------ From: Thomas_Jones-Low@idx.com Subject: Ogre Construction designer notes I promised to publish these notes this week, so here they are. There are two source of "official" values for Ogres. The Ogre Reinforcement Pack (Section 5.00), and the Ogre Minis rules. Actually these values are not far apart if you mulitply the armor unit values by six (VP for an armor unit). Reinforcment Pack Minis Formula Ogre AU Points Points AU Points Mark I 5 30 25 5 30 Mark II 9 54 50 9 54 Mark III 17 102 100 17 102 Fencer 24 144 140 23 138 Mark IV 25 150 150 25 150 Mark V 25 150 150 25 150 Mark VI 35 210 210 35 210 Doppelsolner 210 34 204 Ninja 150 25 150 I wanted a formula to produce the AU values for the main units, or at least close to be able to add the new Ogres posted with some idea of how the related to the "real" ogres. I did not spend a lot of time analysizing what each of the numbers meant. The 5% cost increase for the Move 4 Ogres seems off, but given that there are only two Move 4 Ogres in the list above, the lack of datapoints makes judgements hard. Garth Getgen and I had a similar discussion about the cost of a Superheavy tank. I found a way to make Henry Cobbs unofficial unit cost formula make the Superheavy cost 12 points (the unmodified formula makes it cost 11 points). And Garth pointed out just because the formula says 12 points, it doesn't playtest to 12 points. I am relying upon the wisdom of Steve Jackson and his playtesters to determine the points as accurately as possible. The Main Battery, Secondary battery, AP, Missiles, and Missile Racks are all standard Ogre equipment. The Stealth gear is an abstraction of the gear mounted on the Ogre Ninja for building your own stealth Ogres. The Towing Gear is from the Ogre Reinforcement Pack (the reenforcement pack towing gear costs 9 points for Ogres, so the formula says towing gear is 7 points * 1.25 = 8.75, and Superheavy gear is only 3 points). The Mini-Missile launcher, PD Battery and LGAE's I originally saw posted by Henry Cobb in the archives. The Ogre launched Cruise Missile was posted by Garth Getgen (in the archive) and Tom Warner (On the SJGames Ogre page). I adopted a compromise between the two ideas. The cruise missile warhead/self destruct was a last minute addition, which probably should be removed. But I still need to be able to build the Goliath... ----- [But are the "standard costs" OK for a construction system or are they simply useful for tracking VPs for OGRE damage? -HJC] ------------------------------ From: Chris Camfield Subject: Caught on the jump > [Whoa! Don't wear out those neurons, go browse my web page for all of >that info and more. -HJC] Which information? I don't see anything about Ogre costs on your page. I don't see anything about SG 52 either. I like the Rangers (though I don't see the point in giving them marine capabilities or not having the infantry-combine-defence system), and don't like the Jump troops. My memory was shaky but I had seen them before. Chris Chris Camfield - ccamfield@cyberus.ca Big Rude Jake Fan Club President Visit the Big Rude Page at "http://www.bigrudejake.com"! "I've had dinner with the devil, and I know nice from right" (BRJ) ----- [Yeah, I haven't extended the newest formula to cover OGREs because I'm still having fits with Infantry with it. (It tracks the major armor units to within 1 percent and is then off by over a factor of two on Militia costs) I will pull some more junk out of the archives and out on the pages in the future. (I keep thinking about some super Java index to go searching through the archives.) -HJC] ------------------------------ From: "Garth L. Getgen" Subject: BPC Armor I just posted the following on the OGRE Message Board, but I thought I'd pass it along here for comment: On 12/12/97 10:20pm, Vex Nemesis wrote: > As I read through the many posts I wonder why people have forgotten the basic > facts about bi-phased carbide armor and how a few centimeters of it require > a direct hit from a tac-nuke to penetrate it. Well, I never really bought the idea of nukes being tossed around oh so casually. Nor did I buy the idea of Infantry carrying not just one such warhead but enough that they don't bother counting their ammo. The only way I, personally, can buy the idea of "tac-nukes" in every round is if they are more akin to shaped-charge HEAT rounds with a well-below-sub-critical-mass of highly radioactive material (more potent than what we use today in ICBMs). In my mind, the kinetic and thermal energy of the warhead impacting on a very hard substance ie, armor plating) would transfer to the radioactive element, forcing it momentarily to near-critical density and there would be a FLASH of energy directed (by means of the shaped-charge design of the warhead) into the target. I would further envision that there would be minimum blast/shockwave, and no significant crater, from such a warhead. Any collateral damage would be limited to between 100 and 1,000 meters from the point of impact; this is assumed by the spillover rules and the game scale of 1,500 meters per hex. Assuming such a warhead could be invented (and I have no idea whether or not it can!!), I see it as much safer for the user than standard nuclear devices because it can't be detonated (as a nuke) without a high volicity impact -- it can't go off in your hands! > Helicopters and planes would not do so well with an air burst nuke. True, they can't handle a Cruise Missile type blast; but in the theory presented above, the shockwave from a conventional OGREverse unit is not that big of deal. Nor would one expect today's UH-60s or AH-64s to be flying in OGREverse -- the choppers of the future will be designed with the combat environment in mind. I still believe that helicopters and/or VSTOL aircraft would have a valid place in the OGREverse (however, see below) and the only reason I didn't add fixed-wing fighters / ground attack aircraft in any of my suggestions is because I have yet to be able to make them balanced with the rest of the game. > I always accepted that as one of the many reasons why they weren't > included in the initial rules. $.02 As Steve Jackson so eloquently pointed out to me after I posted my set of helicopter rules, he intended to create a TANK game and that was that. I do believe that it was the primary, if not the only, reason there are no aircraft in the game. Garth L. Getgen ----- [For an interesting look at airpower, see the January 1998 Marine Corps Gazette for articles on Microflyers (Man portable flying robots). -HJC] Henry J. Cobb hcobb@io.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 1997, by Steve Jackson Games.