============ OGREverse list, July 8th (Last: July 5th) ============= ===== Ogres in Role-Playing Games From: "Todd A. Zircher" From: Thomas_Jones-Low@idx.com From: Warloc@webtv.net (G C) ===== OGRE: the musical From: "William Spencer" ===== A couple short FO comments From: daniel@jaws.greatwhite.com (Dan Tulloh) From: "Andrew Walters" ===== Does cheap AI kill Ogres? From: "Andrew Walters" ===== Ogre Scenerio From: largecardriver5@webtv.net (edward markle) From: largecardriver5@webtv.net (edward markle) ===== Fencer Scenario From: largecardriver5@webtv.net (edward markle) ------------------------------ From: "Todd A. Zircher" Subject: Ogres in Role-Playing Games Pat O'Hara and Henry said: > > The problem I see with an Ogre first person shooter is that > your couldn't control all the weapons! To much to keep track > of in real time. > > PatO >---- > [That depends on the cycle time of the weapons, no? -HJC] True. In the true soulless flavor of the Cybertank, I foresee that the anti-personnel weapons would be automated. That way you would only have to worry about the mains, secondaries and the missiles. Heart of Steel barely noticed the infantry that died as it drove on by. Reflexively, it opened up on them with 30mm depleted uranium rounds and chewed up armor and dirt alike. It might be good to include a switch to turn that on or off. :-) -- TAZ PS. Just for fun, I downloaded the Quake demo, a QuakeC compiler and some source code. Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to play with them. From the partial and total conversions that I saw on ftp://ftp.cdrom.com, there is a remote possibility to it. Of course, it would have to get the Steve Jackson seal of approval before it even saw the light of day. ----- From: Thomas_Jones-Low@idx.com Subject: Ogres in Role-Playing Games I have not played Quake (I or II), but my favorite Descent, the craft accumulates 11 weapon systems which you can switch between depending upon the situation. So controling 9 weapons (2 Main, 6 Secondary, the missles) over a wider area than just plain line of sight should be a breeze. Thomas Jones-Low ----- From: Warloc@webtv.net (G C) Subject: Ogres in Role-Playing Games Hi Henry, This is for submission on te OgreVerse list: Chris Camfield wrote: >I think that roleplaying in the Ogreverse makes a lot more sense when >the players are human, not Ogres (like in the first few suggestions); >re-reading the Ogre fiction that has been written should produce a >number of roleplaying situations. The alternative(?) history where the >Ogres start taking control of Europe themselves seems like a great >campaign setting to me. The human factor is definately the way to go with RPG Ogre. If Ogres were ever to come into play, it would be best to let the GM run them as NPCs. Now, if SJ Games would set us up with a GURPS sourcebook for the Ogre universe, we would be set. How 'bout it, Steve? Glen Cote ------------------------------ From: "William Spencer" Subject: OGRE: the musical Hey, I like those role-playing scenario ideas. And, they can be converted into "regular" board/mini scenarios with little trouble. Cool. I thought the Forward Observor article was posted on the Steve Jackson Games boards...I'll have to go look... All right, here's ideas for running a role-playing game where you play the humans: For one thing, you'd need it to be cinematic in style (like anime)... in a realistic game, at least half the players would have to create new characters every adventure (smart-guided tacnukes don't leave much room for error, I'm afraid...) Of course "cinematic" has a range: the game could be semi-serious (with the brave men in white helmets against the evil jackbooted nazi thugs), deadly serious (War is Hell, after all), or silly (OGRE/TOON anyone?) The players could be a special ops team of some kind: they would be a highly-trained squad, able to use battlesuits or armor units, used when no one else would do. They'd see both battlefield duty and covert operations (In Ogre Minis, it says that England repelled two Paneuropean invasions, but finally fell to infiltrators.), and would get to be sent all over the world. An Ogre's gone rogue? Need to find the enemy supply depot hidden in the jungle/tundra/wasteland? Need someone to take out that KillSat? Send in Black Ops! Of course, there's also the personal side of things. I'd play as Paneuropeans myself - player characters could be from any of the former European nations (the French GEV pilot, the German demolitions specialist, the Finnish ground-trooper...), and you're fighting on the side of the "good guys", defending your home against the evil Combine invaders. Yes, it's all cliched, but it's fun. On the other hand, the Combine offers pathos in scads: since the Combine's a totalitarian state, you have the classic plotline in which the previously-loyal soldiers discover that their country is mean and nasty. Do you go along with it, or rebel? For information on running a SILLY Combine campaign, check out West End Games' PARANOIA... ("I'm sorry citizen. Information on how to fire the air-defense lasers is not available at your security clearance. Enemy cruise missile will impact in 23 seconds. Have a nice day.") Or you could play the Japanese empire. This gives a chance for political intrigue between clans...yes, the ninja are still around in the 21st century, and they carry laser rifles... -William One last thing: have you listened to HOLZT's "The Planets" lately? "MARS" sounds a lot like an Ogre attack set to music, in my humble opinion... ----- [Well, OGRE Squash has already been done. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: daniel@jaws.greatwhite.com (Dan Tulloh) Subject: A couple short FO comments I wrote: > > [ large snip ] > >Note that no-one else may benefit from an FO, only howitzers >and other "long-range artillery". (ie, weapons firing non-missile >munitions at ranges greater than 4 hexes) Ogre's cannot use >FO's because they fire missiles, which would probably have >some sort of seeking ability. > and Henry asks: > [Seeking for what? > > Thats as daft as the suggestion on the naval newsgroup that Pershing >missiles would use their radar guidance to hunt for ships. The problem is >that the area searched is very small in relation to the size of the >ocean. -HJC] > Seeking for what? Targets, of course. Duh. I think you are proceeding from the incorrect assumption that a missile must have a lock-on to a single target or is aimed at a particular set of coordinates prior to launch. Lock-On-Before Launch systems behave in this fashion, but not Lock-On-After-Launch systems. LOAL systems can scan a prescribed target area, discriminate the targets appearing within that area, and guide themselves in to the kill. (Before someone squawks, I know that beamrider systems dont work this way - an FO must lase the target and the missile homes in on the reflected laserbeam.) So, if you are suggesting that it's a daft idea to have a seeker on a missile - uh, we have those already. The question is how it is employed. And if you are thinking that we wouldn't fire a missile at a location which may or may not have targets, wrong again. In this case, missiles are fired over an area that we expect targets to be (most likely because they were spotted some time earlier and the missiles are tossed at their expected location. Yes, we do lose a few missiles this way) Missiles used in this fashion often have to employ some kind of AI ability to discriminate the presented targets or indeed determine if targets are presented at all. In the argument I made earlier, I was assuming that non-missile weapons were essentially ballistic, or "dumb" rounds. Using an FO as a "spotter" for these kinds of rounds may serve to increase their lethality, as the FO doesnt have to give away his position to zero the artillery on the target. Actually, its not that daft an idea to throw a round out there to gather intel - the Army has a system which can be used in a similiar way. Its just usually cheaper to do the job with an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV). As a method of last resort, however ... well ... people have been known to do some pretty wierd things. Dan ----- From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: A couple short FO comments HWZs shoot missles, not non-missles. Check the introductory vignette, among other places. This same story mentions cameras and sensors pre-positioned all around the CP, which the Ogre eliminates as it advances. I hate it when that happens. Since HWZs are high-value, non-mobile units, we can assume that when they are set up a large number of sensors are set up are emplaced out to their effective range. If these are passive devices, camouflaged and armoured, they'd survive as long as necessary. Secondly, the way US Navy ships are interlinked today, the datalink shares sensor data between all the platforms. I don't understand this much better than is necessary to play Harpoon II badly, and though it will undoubtedly become much more difficult to communicate across a future, nuclear battlefield, I would assume that if two units could *talk* they could share other data as well. So the exclusive designation of spotters and shooters seems ackward. But again, I would argue that anything can be justified. I'm looking for game effect. My idea of a forward observer situation in the OGREverse is Operation Newspaper. Anybody know of LGEVs have ejection seats? They should. ----- [What good would it do? They don't face much threat from heat-seakers with small conventional warheads. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: Does cheap AI kill Ogres? Ogre, and its accompanying rationale and future history, was written in 1979, before computers started doubling in power every eighteen months and became cheaper than TVs. The original designer's notes describe the size of the Ogre stemming from the desire to protect the expensive investment in the computer, and give it as many weapons as it can handle. Maybe Steve could update this aspect of the rationale. It would be darned pricey to develop the Ogre's brain and software, but the unit cost would not be the most expensive thing on the Ogre. The biggest investment now becomes either the sensors (range is limited by sensors) or the nuclear power plant that drives the thing. I'm assuming the BPC armor is not extremely expensive or I don't think you'd have both infantry *and* Ogres. (I've always assumed that Ogres are nuclear powered, but I suppose they might have really big diesel fuel tanks. Anyone?) With the continually plummeting price of computing power, I think we virtually have to assume cheap AI, or we have to pretend that our AIs are not computer-based, but come from some other technology. While that's a interesting direction to start thinking in, its not necessary to the OGREverse... The AI found in missles, first of all, would be an expert system-type AI, not heuristic, because, hey, how much learning is a missle going to do? As an expert system its going to be a very task-specific AI. It can pick its assigned target out of the noise, struggle against various jamming techniques, dodge anticipated counter-measures, and in short get to the target. Adding the ability to *locate* other targets adds significantly to the missle's cost, and adds gear that would either reduce warhead size or increase total mass, meaning its slower and easier to hit. Then it would need to be able to evaluate that data, and send some of it back, so that's two more capabilites to add to that compact package. So sure, AI in the missles could give every missle the "mental" capability to be an FO, but if its going to be a cheap and effective missle, its not going to turn out that way. The OGRE's value doesn't only from its brains, since the CP directing all the armor units is going to have computers making recommendations, and the individal tanks will have some automated fire control. The Ogre is also the most *survivable* thing out there. With *meters* of BPC instead of centimeters, it can penetrate an intense environment with a better chance of getting to its objective than the resource equivelent cost of HVYs. Well, that rambled all over the place, but I don't think assuming cheap AIs would rule out Ogres. And I think someone should rework his original rationale (maybe its already done in Ogre Minis, I should check). ----- [Wrong, Moore's Law predates OGRE, but I think we can forgive a law student for a little ignorance. (Please don't kill me! ;-) The choices are basically: Cheap AI or Cyborgs. Expensive, deployed AI only makes sense in a world of $500 toilet seat covers. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: largecardriver5@webtv.net (edward markle) Subject: Ogre Scenerio "Big Joe, Callies got it all figured out just listen to him". Big Joe looks at Callie " I told you ta stay away from these guys". "Yep you did Big Joe.But they're coming with me". "Big Joe we been dieing for a few lousey bucs a month.If I gotta go it might as well be this trip as the next". "Callies even got us tank support..." <<<<<*****>>>>> This was a fun diversion for us,maybe someone else would like to give it a try. >> Callies Heros. The object of the game is to knock off a bank of gold behind Paneuropean lines. The victory condictions:Get at least 1 load of gold and one vehicle off the north map edge. Special Rules.***** >At least 1 squad must be in the bank hex for 1 non moving turn.They may be fired on during any turn,but may not return fire, and still load gold. >One squad may move 1 load of gold per turn.There are 6 loads of gold. >Each vehicle may move 1 load of gold on it's hull,and 1 squad of inf. >GEVPC's may move 6 loads and 3 squads. Maps.***** >Shockwave.The bank is located in hex 711. >GEV.The bank is located in hex 1408. Forces.***** >Defender.Defence has 1 light tank and 1 squad of inf per city hex.It also gets 3 superheavies in the bank hex,and 3 Inf.squads <<<<<*****>>>>> "Wasted trip babe.Nobody said nuttin about no superheavies". <<<<<*****>>>>> >Attacker.Callie has 2 GEV's,2 GEVPC's, 3 Heavy tanks,3 squads of Inf. with one missle per squad and are transferable to other squads or to vehicles much like the Milan is.Callie also has 1 and only one MSL/GEV,from the short story "The Ninja and The Cub" by Michael Stackpole. Activation.***** >Alert.The defender goes on alert in 3 stages.The Inf. on the turn Callie enters the map.Light tanks on the 2ed turn and the SuperHeavies on turn 3. Varients.***** >Defender.Change the bank hex forces to Heavies,or to Lights,or to GEV's,or to Inf. >Callie.Change the Heavies to GEV's,or the 2 GEV's to MSL/GEV's or to all GEV/PC's and 8 squads of Inf. or give all vehicles a single milan missle. The variations are really just a way to give people their favorite toy. Entry.***** >Callie enters from the south edge and must exit off the north edge. *****Well I hope this is OK ?***** Edward W.Markle Ed ----- From: largecardriver5@webtv.net (edward markle) Subject: Ogre Scenerio >From GHBELLOWS@aol.com >Not bad, where the Light Tanks on the German side coming from or are >these add ons for play balance? Pay balance.I figured it would be to easy with only 3 superheavies.Did intertain the idea of 3 Mk ll 's and 4 squads of Inf. with a force of the same composition for Callie but with the 3 SHVY's on his side. Edward W.Markle Ed ------------------------------ From: largecardriver5@webtv.net (edward markle) Subject: Fencer Scenario Agreed the 2 secoundary is sufficent.Just curius which SJ was contemplating when he wrote the scenerio. Thanks for the reply. Edward W.Markle Ed ----- [AFAIK (Which isn't much) the four secondary Fencer was simply a misprint. -HJC] Henry J. Cobb hcobb@io.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 1998, by Steve Jackson Games.