============ OGREverse list, June 17th (Last: June 13th) ============= ===== Picturing the Mark One From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller) ===== Campaign Rules/Guidelines From: "Stephen Said" ===== Brotherhood of metal From: "Pat O'Hara" ===== More Copyright From: "S. Keith Graham" From: Steve Jackson ===== Robot Warriors From: "Todd A. Zircher" ------------------------------ From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller) Subject: Picturing the Mark One Forwarded as a courtesy to a member of SFCONSIM-L. Replies can be = made to the OGREverse list or to me: I'll make sure he gets the = replies! -j --- Forwarded Message from shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) = --- >Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:14:20 -0700 >To: sfconsim-l@usra.edu >From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) >Subject: sorta SF content >Sender: owner-sfconsim-l@usra.edu >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: sfconsim-l@usra.edu=20 I was just discussing OGRE and then flipping through the = miniatures rulebook; it says (p. 9) that the Ogre Mk. I was based on a Combine heavy battle tank. I was wondering if any veteran boardgame players had ever seen an official illo of one? Steven Hudson ------------------------------ From: "Stephen Said" Subject: Campaign Rules/Guidelines This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Hi Henry This is for the mailing list... *** Campaign Rules/Guidelines After job changes, school changes, and all the other things life throws at you, I have finally been able to complete a first draft of my Campaign Guidelines. They are attached in Word 97 and .txt format. I would be really interested in suggestions, comments and thoughts. A couple of points though... (i)If anyone is dead keen to get into play testing contributing etc to campaign guidelines, let me know as I can set up a web site to co-ordinate efforts. (I work for an ISP in Melbourne, Australia now so I can get free disk space etc...). Also, I can set up a mailing list for die hard campaigners rather than clag the Ogre Mailing list with this stuff. If you are keen, please reply privately. I did this once before but I trashed my address book. (Very sorry - Thanks very much Microsloth...) (ii) First Scenario I am working on one, but it is going to be one where I almost have to act as a GM. Any suggestions on tools (especially mapping...) that can keep track of battalion level units etc. (iii) TOE In the attached document, I suggested the task force as the most effective way to handle management of a campaign. I am tending to a spreadsheet that can handle the recording of Battalion Level groups. As a matter of fact, I have a number spreadsheets designed to keep track of the whole mess. Any suggestions here would be fantastic. If I can get your feedback on this (or any other aspect...) I would really appreciate it. Regards, Stephen A. Said - Technical Manager Impaq Pty Ltd | phone +61 3 9841-6477 Melbourne, Australia | email sas@impaq.net.au Network Access Providers | www http://www.impaq.net.au ----- [Sorry, the attachment was WAY too big to send out over the mailing list. Could you please send this to the webpeon? (mailto:awflower@midway.uchicago.edu) -HJC] ------------------------------ From: "Pat O'Hara" Subject: Brotherhood of metal Here is an interesting question. Is artificial Intelligence desirable in a battlefield automiton? Would self aware machines be more likely or less likely to "kill" other self aware machines? For background consider that only about 30% of combat troops actually try to kill the enemy. PatO Tanks for your support. ----- [People are the product of a society in which killing is unnatural. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: "S. Keith Graham" Subject: More Copyright Note that this article doesn't cover the trademark issue at all; I really don't understand trademark law as it relates to using other people's property (i.e. "Compatible with Windows95") so I'm not commenting on that at all. But as far as copyright is concerned (see _Nimmer_On_Copyright_, the definitive lawyer's text about copyright), games can't be copyrighted. Well, you can copyright the fiction up front. You can copyright any artwork and the "art" portion of the maps. And you can copyright your explanation of the rules. But the actual game mechanics aren't copyrightable. The game rules are considered a "process" independant of anyone's text describing them. The process of moving counters around on a board, and the effects of this hex here, and what you roll when you want to blow someone up are considered "facts" of the game, and aren't copyrightable. Specifically, Parker Brothers lost a case in reference to Monopoly, where someone created a game that was "topologically equivilant" to Monopoly so that the game play was identical, but with different names, counters, etc. (And the copyright on Monopoly has since expired, but that's another issue.) There's also a principle in copyright law called the "Merger Doctrine" which states that the expression of a non-copyrighted work may not itself be copyrighted if that's the only way to express it. My reading of this is that the actual text of really complicated wargames may actually not be copyrightable because how they are phrased is critical to the gameplay. This is probably shakier, but that's what the lawyer I talked to said.. Your Milage May Vary, Consult A Lawyer, etc. etc. Given that SJG is really cool about giving out licenses, I would definately contact them for their license, and not worry about the grief a lawsuit could cause for everyone involved. And they will probably even let you legally use various parts of their game that are copyrighted, plus you don't have to worry about trademark issues. But the "facts" of the game aren't copyrightable, as far as everything I've read says, and I'm fairly positive that those facts are all that are required for a PBeM assistant. Keith Graham skg@sadr.com P.S. I have absolutely no clue how the copyright law handles rules for licensed games, such as a "Conan" game, or how the law handles Role Playing Games, which are bizarre amalgams of fiction (which is copyrightable) and games (which aren't.) There are all kinds of bizarre issues involving implied licenses, intent of the material, merger doctrine, derivitive works, etc. that won't be clarified, IMO, until a court looks at it and they haven't for RPGs. ----- From: Steve Jackson Subject: More Copyright >But as far as copyright is concerned (see _Nimmer_On_Copyright_, >the definitive lawyer's text about copyright), games can't be >copyrighted. That is a dangerously general statement to make to a layman, because: >Well, you can copyright the fiction up front. You can copyright >any artwork and the "art" portion of the maps. And you can >copyright your explanation of the rules. In other words, the map, the counters, the other printed components, and the exact wording of the text, including the way the tables are presented, WOULD be fully protected. >But the actual game mechanics aren't copyrightable. Just as the plot of a novel isn't protected by its copyright. But suits for plagiarism can still occur. >There's also a principle in copyright law called the "Merger Doctrine" which, as you say, is complex, and I cheerfully admit that it's beyond MY competence, but my understanding of it is that it probably does not provide a loophole relevant to the current discussion. >But the "facts" of the game aren't copyrightable, as far as >everything I've read says, and I'm fairly positive that those >facts are all that are required for a PBeM assistant. It might be possible to do a PBeM assistant that skirted all the creator's copyright and trademark protections, but nobody has even attempted that yet. A typical gamebox is based around more or less crude re-renderings (or actual scans) of the game map and counters. That's actionable, if, God forbid, the publisher were aggrieved enough to sue. The assistant would have to be very careful about how it used the name of the game, and would somehow have to avoid using maps and counters that were either identical to or derivative of the protected art. I don't know how to do that, and if I knew, I wouldn't tell, because my agenda is to get gamebox creators to ask for permission. > >P.S. I have absolutely no clue how the copyright law handles rules > for licensed games, such as a "Conan" game It's a trademark and "grand rights" issue. , or how the law > handles Role Playing Games, which are bizarre amalgams of > fiction (which is copyrightable) and games (which aren't.) > There are all kinds of bizarre issues involving implied licenses, > intent of the material, merger doctrine, derivitive works, etc. > that won't be clarified, IMO, until a court looks at it and they > haven't for RPGs. Right. And none of us wants to pay for that test. Steve Jackson - yes, of SJ Games - yes, we won the Secret Service case Learn Web or die - http://www.sjgames.com/ - dinosaurs, Lego, Kahlua! The heck with PGP keys; finger for Geek Code. Fnord. ----- [The problem with turning this into a legal column is that OGRE isn't even very good for rule lawyers, at least until somebody lost the rule numbers. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: "Todd A. Zircher" Subject: Robot Warriors > Sci-Fi's Sightings says that equivalency of processing power and > storage capacity with the brain will be reached in 15 years, plus or > minus 5 years. (Don't you feel as smart as a thousand supercomputers?) > But that full understanding of the brain will take 50 to 100 years. > (Software is always late and buggy, no?) Normally, I write off Sightings as the National Enquirer of cable TV, but I did catch that episode and found if quite amusing. Ever since Mary Shelly's Frankenstein, we have been writing stories about creations that turn against us. I think it's engrained into society deep enough that they we will never build a machine that can dislodge us from the top of the food chain. To keep this on topic, Ogres are perfect soldiers. Anything less would not have been built. (Of course, there was that little Descartes problem. I'll have to review my notes on that, it's been a while.) -- TAZ ----- [From the Marine's theories of "Maneuver Warfare", the perfect soldier understands their commander's intent and follows that, rather than the letter of their orders. Sightings suggested that machines reading brainwaves wasn't that far off. The only story that seems to hint in this direction is that first Bolo story. -HJC] Henry J. Cobb hcobb@io.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 1998, by Steve Jackson Games.