============ OGREverse list, Sep 18th (Last: Sep 15th) ============= ===== SHVY enhancements From: "Andrew Walters" ===== Was that a challenge mister? From: Garrett Briggs ===== Nippon America From: Chris Camfield ===== Big Guns From: VIPER394@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: SHVY enhancements >From months past: >> FromSJ: >> I know that a few years ago, a proposed rules change was generated to make >> the Superheavy more powerful... >> Meantime, here are two alternative ideas... >> >> Option 1: Defense of 5. No other changes. SHVY is still disabled or killed >> as a unit. Advantage: Real simple. Disadvantages: Adds no interest, other >> than making the SHVY sail through a lot of shots; and do I really believe >> that anything has D5? >> >> Option 2: Partial Damage. Advantage: Neat ramifications. Disadvantage: you >> now need a record sheet for every SHVY. >> >> [First option: It's armor is thicker than an Ogre's? >> Second option: I hope that any X at least D's the sucker. -HJC] My two cents: I agree that SHVYs are very cool and add a signicant element - real punch that can move fast and take a beating. I also agree I would never take one. 12 Pts in one unit is too much, one GEV has a 16% chance of killing it unblooded, not good. Option 1: Defense of 5 would make it very interesting, but that's more than 25% stronger, when you consider other the other units' strengths and the CRT. D5 requires 50% more GEVs, or 100% more HVYs or Main Batteries to get a 1:1. That's pretty tough. I would take a lot of them, under those conditions. Can anything have D5? Well, kinda sorta. The reason we don't target an Ogre's powerplant or brain for an instant kill is that those components are behind *meters* of BPC, so their effective defense is probably D20 or much more. If it were only D12, wouldn't you get three HVYs to target it for a one in three instant kill? So D5 is physically possible for a large object, though not necessarily for a component. Thus at higher D values you quit trying to get through the armor and go for the component kills, as we do with Ogres. So thicker armor and a higher defense just means someone would develop targeting methods to attack guns and treads seperately. Then you have a manned Ogre-like thing, and having to destroy components seperately would increase its value. The Mark I at 25 points has one 4/3 attack and 4 APs, the SHVY has two 3/3 attacks and two APs, so they're approximately equal in attack capability. The 12-25 point difference is because the SHVY can be destroyed all at once while the Mark I cannot. So if you have to destroy the SHVY's components individually (which is *not* what Steve was suggesting previously) the SHVY is pretty close to the Mark I. But the SHVY is the same size (5) as a Mark I, and it has not only has two guns to the Mark I's one (and therefore two loading systems and two independently targeting weapnos mounts), but also a crew compartment, air handling, ameneties, etc. So its hard to imagine that its as tough as a Mark I. Much as I'd love to see D5, I don't think it would play well, or be defensible. On the other hand, I don't want to keep a record sheet for each SHVY. I think it actually detracts from the Ogre's specialness (personal feeling), and its a nuisance (probably general feeling). So here are my half-baked proposals. They're kinda weird, but maybe they can evolve... Another Option: D is a standard disable; XX is the usual hulkless elimination; X is a special D - when it should come back, roll on this table: 1 - Recovers! 2 - Recovers! 3 - Still disabled, roll again next turn 4 - Still disabled, roll again next turn 5 - Recovers with one gun 6 - Crew recovers, tank inoperative, crew forced to bail, leave a hulk This gives the SHVY a bit of an edge. If you make the X a D that's the equivelent of D6 (depending on what's attacking), since its kinda sorta the equivelent of a column shift. This turns the X into 1/3 of a D, 1/3 of a long D, and a chance of a half a unit coming back, or no unit at all. I can see a lot of SHVY drivers hoping for a 5 over a 3 or 4 so they can get the unit moving again. I can see SHVYs being disabled for three or four turns; this is the best time to kill them easily, since a second D or X will do it. I can see LTNKs coming in to get a 1-1 to finished off a SHVY, being surprised when it wakes up, and getting squished. And we still have the opportunity for an SHVY hulk, and refugees. On the down side, while this avoids a record sheet, it creates another table. Yet Another Option: D4, all the usual rules, no help there. But the circuitry that allows the two guns to fire together turns out to be particularly efficient, and extra circuitry is included to allow the guns to combine fire with other units, providing them targetting info on units whose ECM they might not otherwise be able to penetrate due to range. When the SHVY attacks a unit with both guns a HVY or LTNK may combine fire at range 6" (from the HVY/LTNK)! Cleverly used this would make the SHVY a valuable focus of a tank formation, without making it indesctructible. Without clever use, the SHVY would not be worth its points, kinda like a lot of the units. Final, and Most Boring Option: Make it worth 10 pts. ----- [The effective defense of a Mk-III power plant is... (Sound of nano-tech mechanical relays clacking over the odds from: http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/articles/goldbb.html ...) Well the answer is 42. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: Garrett Briggs Subject: Was that a challenge mister? Henry, In response to this comment you wrote in the last OGREverse List update, >[I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of a cybership design, but I >would suggest that it wouldn't make much sense to submit an orginal design >at this point. -HJC] Is that a challenge Mister? I'll have something for all to check out this Saturday! Of course, I will definitely leave the forum open for how to implement it within OGRE. Ship pilots are cheap, and the promise of good pay, adventure, ettc. will lure the grunts that didn't make the trooper squad. There will always be those guys that go "Huh?" when the land at a beach, and load up four GEV's when they suddenly realize that it is the wrong faction of GEV's and his faction is awaiting about 12km south. Maybe we should have a 'fall-through-the-cracks" roll modifier in some exotic cases because you never know how competent an officer can be sometimes. I'm finishing up a GEV in 3D and will also post a progress pic this SAturday for that too. Enjoy and THANKYOU Henry for _still_ keeping this forum up and running. I taped a $100.00 bill under your seat for your hard effort! Garrett Briggs Learn Play Live www.hovercar.com (New models every month!) ------------------------------ From: Chris Camfield Subject: Nippon America Regarding the Japanese invasion of North America... Considering the speed at which ships travel (comparable with land) I wonder if it wouldn't be practical to *DRIVE* Ogres across the ocean. Course it is a bit more bumpy down below. :-) Comments? CC Chris Camfield - ccamfield@cyberus.ca Big Rude Jake Fan Club President Visit the Big Rude Page at "http://www.bigrudejake.com"! "I've had dinner with the devil, and I know nice from right" (BRJ) ----- [Isn't the muck of the deep ocean a lot like a swamp? -HJC] ------------------------------ From: VIPER394@aol.com Subject: Big Guns I see the laser turet as the 2070s version of CWIS "Seawizz" or the british goal keeper ----- [I see it as the equivalent of the 54 caliber sixteen-inch gun. It has about the same range and is too and fragile to mount on most OGREs. I can justify a dedicated ship able to dedicate most of its volume to a single weapon system normally found only on permanent ground installations. After all, ships tend to ride smoother than tanks. The modern short-ranged self-defense missile systems might evolve into simply mounting a normally ground vehicle mounted weapon capable of stopping cruise missiles outside of shock range. (After all the navy considers 175mm Howitzers from time to time...) -HJC] Henry J. Cobb hcobb@io.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 1998, by Steve Jackson Games.