============ OGREverse list, May 18th (Last: May 10th) ============= ===== Ogre Future History From: "Andrew Walters" ===== Ogre Tower = Polyphemus' Eye From: "Andrew Walters" ===== Fire-During-Move and "Realism" From: "Andrew Walters" ===== Ogre Minis Sizes From: "Andrew Walters" ===== New mechanic: playtest feedback appreciated From: Patrick Odonnell ===== Ogre Miniatures From: Tom Granvold ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: Ogre Future History > BTW Steve: could you add to the future history that the dividing point >between the Western Europeans and the Americans came about during a small >conflict in the Balkans? -HJC] Oh, come on, I just can't imagine a European war starting over some little event in the Balkans. Seriously, adding this thought to Steve's Illuminator post a couple days ago, how am I supposed to sleep? ----- [Relax, you're unlikely to live to see the Fall of Man. But, if you got any kids it might be a good thing to teach them proper respect for computers. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: Ogre Tower = Polyphemus' Eye Okay, Polyphemus wasn't an Ogre, but he was really close. I can't remember who brought this up (aplogies, I looked), but what he wants to do is precisely correct - attack the single point of failure. To quote Robert Leonhard's must-read Art Of Maneuver: "Fire ants have queens, men have groins, and armies have critical vulnerabilities like logistical trains, artillery groups, helicopter bases, comannd-and-control facilities, and morale. The existency of these Achilles' heels is undeniable and clearly points to the logic of maneuver-warfare theory." You should read the book to understand why the fire ants are in there, but its more than worth it. Simply put, you always, always want to attack the enemy where you can do the most damage with the least effort, that's why the Ogre is charging that command post in the first place. But. Since it is so obvious, one *has* to assume that even if the Ogre designers hadn't thought of it, some desperate defenders would have. But even though Ogre's had towers since the Mark I, the Mark V and VI still had them, so they could not have formed a critical weakness. Since the Fencer and Huscarl (PE Mk V) didn't have them, they aren't a necessity, probably just a convenient engineering compromise. While its obviously better to have the tower or it wouldn't have been built (they greatly increase visibility), I believe the Ogre can function without them. (I'm not sure if the Ninja, Mark IV, or Dopplesoldner had the tower.) I *love* the drama that comes from the unstoppability of the Ogre. You can take of the guns, maybe slow it down, but until you have defeated it in detail it still keeps moving torwards *your* critical vulnerability. So. An optional rule to blind the Ogre might be fun, but it will have to be an alternative way to reduce firepower, balanced against the option of eliminating all the weapons. The firepower/time required to blunt the Ogre's fire by blinding it should be equal, probabalistically, to that required to eliminate the weapons. Perhaps there could be more sensors than weapons, but with lower defense, creating a strategy for a GEV or even LGEV defender. Maybe there could be half as many sensors as weapons, with twice the defense, making the SHVY an attractive defender. ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: Fire-During-Move and "Realism" I was dismayed to see so many agree that allowing fire at any point during movement was more realistic than allowing it at only one arbitrary point, so I wanted to add a couple of thoughts to what I wrote earlier. I can't belive armor units of the 21st century follow a strict doctrine of moving for three minutes, then stopping to fire for a minute, way too predictable. If the fire truly occurs when the unit comes to rest, then I want my HVYs to have the option of moving two hexes, then firing twice, or not firing and moving four hexes. Tanks today can fire while moving, that ability is only going to improve. Remember tha the HWZ fires the same missles as the MSL, just more accurately, and more of them. GEVs, and LGEVs fire fully automatic weapons. Look at any of the artwork. All of these suggest to me that the one roll you make is resolving all the fire you had the opportunity to take in four minutes. This is why woods provide a defensive bonus: the trees won't stop tac-nukes or shield you from their explosions, they make you harder to locate and hit. So we want to resolve fire between two fast moving units taking place over four minutes as they approach and retreat, dodge in and out of towns and forrest, how do we allow for range and terrain effects? Doing it at the instant of fire is great if the fire takes place at a particular instance. Car Wars does this admirably with phased movement and call-out-when-you-want-to-fire. Wooden Ships and Iron Men does this great with plotted movement. Both of these are fun, but they take more work than Ogre, and there are fewer units involved, and most importantly, those games are simulating fire where a single shot is important. In Ogre we're simulating four minutes worth. So we've accepted a nasty compromise by evaluating range and fire at a single, arbitrary point. This is really, *really* good because the "design for effect" ideas was accomplished: HVYs work and feel like heavy tanks - you can charge in and fire because you can take the counterfire. GEVs work like GEVs - you can hit and run, and you *need* to. MSLs and HWZ have their unique and appropriately feel. The reason its a nasty compromise is that its an abstraction, with lots assumed to be "factored-in," and you live with the possibility somebody's going to come along and say, "Hey, there's no rules for smoke, temporary sensor-blindness from detonations, night-fighting, artillery spotting, or dud-amunition, so I wrote it all up, along with a fractional CRT, for y'all to play test." {The irony here is that the "somebody" is Steve, who's won piles of game design awards, and I'm just some guy who writes long emails during lunch.] *Not* that I'm against new rules. The Heavy Weapons Squads, Marines, Jam Screens, Cruise Missles, etc add new flavors, and I'm all for that. I'm just antipathetic toward changes which blur the existing flavors. I hope I'm not on anyone's black list. ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: Ogre Minis Sizes Could anyone tell me how long, inches or milimeters, the Mark III and Mark V miniatures are? I can't get anyone to tell me, and the prices on eBay are a smidge high. ------------------------------ From: Patrick Odonnell Subject: New mechanic: playtest feedback appreciated > From: Terry Overton > <...> > The idea is nice, but isn't this adding a bit too much complexity to a > game > whose charm is in its simplicity? > <...> Yes ... well kind of. Many people (at least this person)like(s) *OPTIONS.* I think that it is quite possible to leave the *Basic* game as-is and include an *Advanced* options section. At the beggining of this section one could include a brief *blurb* to the effect that many of these *Options* add more length-of-play and complexity to the game. That is the wonderful thing about games. Everybody can have their cake and eat it too. > From: Chris Camfield <...> > > 1. I want an option to allow for pre-emptive strikes (or at > >least the important after affects thereof) against Ogre's during their > >deployment phase. (read that before they arrive at the outer edge of the > >battle map.) > > Sounds a bit like the 'damaged Ogre' rule in the Reinforcement pack. <...> Is the above named *Pack* still in print? Or, do any of the list members know where I can find a copy? > From: Servitor@aol.com <...> > Even though I'm sure the traditional tower was included simply because it > looked cool on the Ogre,... My guess is you're right. But, in the Ogre Mini's, at least, it is written (and I para-phrase), "... the Coning-tower stands high above the Battlefield giving the Ogre a wide view..." This is very true. A coning tower would give an optimal view of the immiediate Battlefield. It would also give it a one of a kind profile. And, with the curviture of the Earth being what it is, it is not very hard to imagine which part of an Ogre is visible to the human and therefore LOS weapons first. ... it certainly screams "I'm a SENSOR tower!" Oh yeah. Big time. For this reason it would be the target that my Laser Tower would attack at the earliest possible oppurtunity, with incoming missles having priority of course. (In other words, BYE BYE OPTICS.) Of course, it could just be a *lure* to get the enemy to fire upon it but then that would be a serious waste of BPC. > Okay, try this out: > I will. THANKS. > From: Kerr Ballantyne <...> > Now if you take all the TOWER SENSORS out, then perhaps limit the OGRE to > nothing other than OVERRUNS... > > Just an idea! <...> And a great one it is. THANKS. I will probably be going with a mix of what you and Servitor wrote. I think limiting an Ogre to overruns after the tower has been destroyed, though, is a bit drastic. I think there would probably be a number of redundant sensors located lower on the hull that the Ogre would use as secondary *Tri-angulation* sensers with a fully operable tower and as the primary senser for each weapon once the tower is knocked out. This might have the effect that an Ogre with a destroyed tower might only be able to acquire targets at *Point-blank*/shorter ranges with Servitor's above named *Lock On* roll and fire blindly at the last *recorded* hexes of other targets at normal Ogre ranges. This will probably serve to lengthen required game time because the Ogre will have to move closer to a target to insure an abolute kill thereby effectively *lengthening* the board and giving the defense a little bit of breathing room to fight the good fight. > From: "Mike Alvarez" <...> > I think that a scenario involving a suprise strike against an Ogre in a > lightly defended maintenance facility would better fit the bill. <...> You mean a "Hunt the Ogre" Scenario? I think such a scenario would be FANTASTIC. I would play it over and over. > [I've always felt that when one is hemmed in it's best to outflank... Absolutely, I agree, 100%. That having been said however, I think it is even better not to allow oneself to get *hemmed in* in the first place. To do that one has to kill/severely damage an Ogre before it comes to within 16 miles. A fully functional Ogre is a success story waiting to happen. PJ ------------------------------ From: Tom Granvold Subject: Ogre Miniatures On rec.games.miniatures.misc newsgroup someone is selling Ogre miniatures. For those who may be interested here is the posting. Please contact BBradf3021@aol.com and not me about making bids. ----- [Sorry, can't repost without permission, because of the copyright. -HJC] Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 1999, by Steve Jackson Games.