============ OGREverse list, Aug 13th (Last: July 26th) ============= ===== Ogre at ShoreCon 2000 From: Pierre Adams ===== GURPS Ogre From: "Duncan McEwen" ===== Powered Armor, anyone? From: caliban@gate.net ===== A Militia Manifesto From: ckbryant@mindspring.com ===== Ammunition From: "William Spencer" ===== Scale of Combat, and others... From: "nvdoyle" ===== micronuke, drop the bomb on me From: dochtor@impop.bellatlantic.net ===== Conventional Wisdom From: Servitor@aol.com ===== Stealth in the 21st century From: "Hunt, Kirk (Tucson)" ------------------------------ From: Pierre Adams Subject: Ogre at ShoreCon 2000 Just got my pre-reg book for ShoreCon 2000, Sept 28th - Oct. 1, Cherry Hill, NJ. Two Ogre events are listed: a Mark V deathmatch and Raid on Strongpoint Omega. For more con info: http://gameconvention.com/shorecon/ ------------------------------ From: "Duncan McEwen" Subject: GURPS Ogre Hey Gang, I just wanted to step in and say Nice Job on GURPS Ogre. I just got it yesterday and have only looked throught and read selected areas. Even thought I don't play GURPS, the information on the background is awesome. Also, imagine my suprize when I found stats for Nihon cybertanks and the Ogre Mk. VII. That alone made the book well worht buying. I am definatly looking forward to the Factory States supplement and Battlefeilds. I hope we get some counters for the Nihon Steel Warrior tanks. Great stuff. BTW, still nothing on the different varients of the Mk II? GURPS Ogre does not mention reduced defense secondaries, nor does the reprint of reinforcements. I still like the idea of an early (weak) model and a later corrected model. Now we just need VP and Armor Unit equivelents for both. Thanks, Duncan McEwen ----- [Damn, I'd best drop by the SJG website and order my copy today before it goes out of print. -HJC ;-] ------------------------------ From: caliban@gate.net Subject: Powered Armor, anyone? On 1 Apr 00, on , wrote: > Yup, the spec is really there... > > ------- Forwarded message follows ------- > Subject: Powered Armor, anyone? > > I recall someone somewhere on this list mentioning ideas about how one > might build real powered armor. Well, I found a site from DARPA with a > long (and dull sounding) contract up for grabs. Suits must be militarily > applicable, have sufficient power and be relatively quiet, etc. etc. $50 > million has been allotted to the design of such a suit, and anyone who can > demonstrate a feasible concept plan could be awarded a chunk of that money > for development purposes. > > Anyone interested? :) > > http://www.darpa.mil/baa/baa00-34.htm John Fast "Never tease an enemy, save when he is stronger than you." --C.S.Lewis "Tomorrow at dawn, Kropotkins at fifty paces. Coffee for two . . . and tea for one." -- L. Neil Smith ----- [Oh yeah, they invent the Internet and now they think they can do anything. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: ckbryant@mindspring.com Subject: A Militia Manifesto Below, the draft of a broadside I have been composing on the nature of Militia in OGRE/GEV...I'm planning on sending it to Mr. Jackson if it ends up making any sense at all. I would be very eager to hear any comments on it. Craig Militia Manifesto Having just received OGRE Minis, I have set about converting new rules and units back to good old GEV hexes. What can I say? I'm a paper pusher, not a lead-banger. And the “militia”—infantry sans battlesuits—have got me in a rare tizzy. As presented, militia seem to upset the balance of OGRE greatly. (Especially if you belong to the school of thought that tends to break infantry down into one-squad units.) They're very cheap, and almost as capable in many, many ways, as infantry in battlesuits. In fact, my early experiments indicate that I'd almost always rather have six militia units (!) than one infantry squad. And that makes them something of a game-breaker. Or, at least, it alters the shape of the game beyond a level that seems reasonable. Therefore, I offer two modest suggestions, designed to bring these guys more in line with their 1/3 point cost: make them slower, and bigger. First: Movement Assume that militia move at ½ hex per turn. Since hexes are 1,500 meters, and turns are 4 minutes, these little fellows are hoofing along at 750 meters every 4 minutes, or 187.5 meters per minute, or 11,250 meters per hour. Or, to put it in terms that us unenlightened Americans can easily grasp, these infantry troops are doing 7 miles an hour—nine-minute miles! A nine-minute mile is, for me, a pretty decent jogging pace. And when I jog a nine-minute mile, I'm doing it along a well-paved road over familiar territory. Carrying nothing heavier than my tennis shoes. And, generally, not being shot at. And militia are supposed to be able to do nine-minute miles, mile in, mile out, across semi-open countryside? In nuclear/biological/chemical suits? While carrying rifles and rocket launchers? On a nuclear battlefield? Compare the movement rules for Command Decision (why? Because it's a good, well-researched set of rules, and…I have it in front of me.) Infantry in that WWII minis game can move at a “full advance” or a “cautious advance.” Let's look at full advance. Infantry moving all out can do a whopping 600 yards in 15 minutes…or 36.5 meters in one minute. That's about one-fifth as much as the militia in OGRE. And it's very hard to believe that OGRE militia—N/B/C gear, tacnukes, et cetera, are five times as fast as G.I. Joe with his M-1 rifle. Command Decision Infantry, moving at “full advance,” would cover one OGRE hex in 41 minutes—ten turns. And “full advance” is probably not the smartest way to go: “making no effort to use cover or pause to deliver accurate fire.” “Cautious advance,” in which troopers move more carefully, hiding behind cover and taking the occasional aimed shot, is much more in line with the way any infantry squad that wanted to stay alive would move. (Also, it's much more in line with the way I understand what “movement” is in the world of OGRE.) That's half as fast as the full advance: 18 meters a minute, or twenty turns to the hex. To be fair, there is a “travel march” mode, only along roads, that doubles movement (five turns per hex), but precludes shooting—or, really, surviving being shot at. It's a full-out, non-combat road march. I don't see it having much place in OGRE. What to make of this? The obvious answer to “how fast should Militia move?” is: “Zero.” That is, in the context of an OGRE/Gev battle, Militia have no tactical movement ability. They dig in and stay dug in, point-defense units. Howitzers have no tactical movement ability (without being towed), and neither do lasers. Obviously, both of these units have strategic mobility (how else did they get there?), but, in the context of a GEV game, they sit where they are. So, if you want your infantry to move, buy them a truck. Their movement in game terms should be limited to getting on and off other vehicles. And, while we're on the topic, “mount” should probably be a full turn's worth of movement for both the squad and the truck. Or, okay, if you really want to spend the next twenty turns or so moving you militia up one hex, declare that your militia in hex 0101 are moving toward hex 0102, and get out a piece of paper. Make a tally mark every turn. After twenty tally marks—ten along a road—your militia move one hex. If you insist. Second: Size Henry Cobb argues that it is reasonable for point of militia to represent a Platoon of 18-24 men, not a Squad of 6-8. I agree--I'm not sure I buy, on the one hand, that every militiaman is lugging around just as much ammo, just as many weapons, as the guy in powered armor. But even if militia carries, man for man, the same guns and ammo as the big kids, they're bound to be short on a lot of other things that go into that “attack strength:” sighting drones, command and control gear, counter-counter-measures, and all the integrated “digital battlefield” stuff that goes into every battlesuit's helmet. And, as far as ranging and spotting goes, militia can't have one man “jump high” for a precious two seconds of spotting before they fire. All in all, I can't believe a single squad of militia will have the same striking power as a single squad of battlesuit troopers. Assuming that a “point” of militia represents a platoon would make a lot of sense to me. Of course, this introduces another logistical problem: transport. To transport militia, you would have to divide carrying capacity by three: One SP in a GEV-PC, one-third on a heavy tank. One third? Yeah, if you really want to move a point of militia on tanks, replace the 1 SP counter with three 1/3 SP counters: A0/0, D1, M0. They don't pack enough firepower to matter in combat UNLESS three of the 1/3 counters join up in the same hex to reconstitute a 1 SP militia counter. They can do this in overruns, if you overrun three tanks with the 1/3 counters on them, but not when three of the counters are riding individual tanks. If you lose one of the militia before dismounting and re-uniting them, tough beans—2 of the 1/3 “travel” counters do not make a combat-effective unit. This, by the way, eliminates the strategy of putting a squad of militia on every tank in your army as a matter of course—a practice which is, in OGRE Minis, cheap, destabilizing, and counter, in my very humble opinion, to the flavor of the game. I know the rules, as written, allow more SP of militia than regulars to ride in a given space. I'm not sure this is a great rule…a guy in a suit is bigger and heavier, but also much better at locking on to a single, small hardpoint, and holding on as the transport bucks and swings around him. Give a suit trooper a stout piece of pipe to grab, and a few square inches to hold up his feet, and he's good to go. A militiaman needs a better purchase, and probably has less ability to hang on to both the transport and all of his gear. (Especially if we assume that some of their attack strength comes from “squad-portable” weapons that two or three guys carry.) Well, I guess this stuff is pretty hard on the militia. But that was the point of the exercise. Militia are, as written, very competitive with battlesuit troopers for a great many of their traditional missions. (Especially the “stand and die” kind of defensive work.) And, considering the cost of building battlesuits, training the troopers, and maintaining the damn things in the field, if militia were even remotely competitive, battlesuits would never have been developed. The militia need to be crummy in comparison. That's the only way that the suits make any sense. ----- [Put an OGRE on my tail and you will see me dash at a record breaking pace. Not sure if I'd carry my rifle very far though. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: "William Spencer" Subject: Ammunition >... I'm not sure what a "Micro Nuke" is in the context of thisdiscussion... This is where you'll get nothing but agreement from me. IMHO, OGREwould go from *UNREAL BUT FUN* to being MUCH more realistic if nuclear ammowas not a part of it. {But, just as a point of interest, what would you replace them with?} -----------end of snip------------------ This has all been repeated before, of course, but here 'tis again. :) The nukes in OGRE aren't supposed to be classical large scale nukes (-flash- BOOOOMMMM mushroom cloud), but nasty shaped-charge versions of modern depleted-uranium warheads. (Like those "milk-bottle sized" shells that the A-10 Thunderbolt's GAU "Avenger" autocannon fires.) The missile tanks, in particular, fire lots of "smart" projectiles that saturate an area with hell fire. Alternative ammunition? "Hiveloc" rounds - have your railgun accelerate a DPU shell to high-Mach speeds that'll punch through nearly anything. Of course, they probably still carry the old-style nukes for crowd control...er...terrorizing civilian populaces, getting rid of annoying forests, anti-aircraft bursts, etc. Just in smaller sizes...say, 0.1 kilotons, instead of 20 megatons... William Spencer williamspencer@hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "nvdoyle" Subject: Scale of Combat, and others... Murdoch writes... >It occoured to me that the GEV/Shockwave maps are about 4 km scale, does >anyone make maps of actual land areas, such as the town of Bastione in >(forgot country name, Belgum?) os Sheiffield, England, for a more real >feel to a battle. Ogre rules, 2.01 Mapsheet, General "The map is divided into hexagons...each of which represents and area 1500 meters across. Each turn represents 4 minutes." Ogre Miniatures, p. 4, Game Scale "The recommended ground scale...is 1/30,000, or 750 meters to the inch. This makes 2" equal to approximately 1 mile." Further down... "Each turn equals 4 minutes of time. Thus, each inch of Move represents a ground speed of about 7.5 mph." (11.25 kph, so each hex of Move is about 15 mph/22.5 kph) I've got a running list of wargame maps that are compatible, if not excellent for Ogre. If anyone's interested, email me. Sadly, many of them are out of print, though. As for the subject of using the other guy's materiel, I refer you to Ogre Miniatures Rules, p. 55. The text box titled, 'Captured Vehicles'. The gist of it is, when IFF is electronic, and hypno-training is readily available (is this really less plausible than Hot/Warm/Cold Fusion?), and robotic factories are expensive to retool yet very efficient in their processes, then you produce and use the opposite sides stuff. By the 2070s-90s, 'good enough' was the watchword. Noah ------------------------------ From: dochtor@impop.bellatlantic.net Subject: micronuke, drop the bomb on me >From two others > ... I'm not sure what a "Micro Nuke" is in the context of this discussion ... This is where you'll get nothing but agreement from me. IMHO, OGRE would go from *UNREAL BUT FUN* to being MUCH more realistic if nuclear ammo was not a part of it. {But, just as a point of interest, what would you replace them with?} A micronuke is just that, a really small uncontrolled nuclear reaction device designed to knock a hole through thick, or hard armors, without the expense of using nothing but Hiroshima sized bombs to equip all of your troops. This is the fusion weapon idea too, and both would work not by the sheer force of their own blasts, but rather by the massive heating of air into plasma, the melting of the armor from said heating, and the air expansion of such plasma. Not to mention the proportionally samll EMP(electromagnetic pulse), which disrupts computers, and circutiry, and bursts of microwave energy which also waste computers but men too. Small arms would use depleted Uranium rounds more often, as the ready supply of such metal would increase as more of the superpowers turned to fusion and fission reactors as a source of energy to power their states. IMHO, the nuclear armed forces are perfectly reasonable, but it should be stated that the devices they use are on a smaller scale, still not friendly, but semi managable. Murdoch Use what thou will shall be the whole of the web. File under will, file is the web. ------------------------------ From: Servitor@aol.com Subject: Conventional Wisdom << So, the question "Why not ..." can be a little more complicated than what your reply makes it seem, Servitor. [Some of us only get to dream of playing with Macrotures. We'll probably never actually get to though.] >> Well, the "Why not..." was aimed specifically at Henry, not a gross statement of "If I can make it, so can all of you." Definitely not the way I intended it to be interpreted at all. But I hear you about conventions. If I ever win the lotto (momentarily interrupted as everyone laughs) after taking care of family, friends and doing the humanitarian things, I definitely would love to take all my "mega-games" (including OGRE Macrotures, of course) on a road trip. Sort of a traveling mini-con if you will. Overseas would be great too, if someone would translate for me. Hey, I can dream, can't I? But here's a little reality for you if you haven't already heard the news. Goto: http://www.armorcast.com/ and check out the News section. Who knows? Maybe someday I will visit Germany and beg you to play with your super-cool Macrotures collection. (You better believe that the Armorcast stuff is going to have better detail than our scratch-built/molded stuff.) best, flunky(Servitor@aol.com) ------------------------------ From: "Hunt, Kirk (Tucson)" Subject: Stealth in the 21st century Walters and O'Donnell you said what I *meant* to say, except... The current technology and tactics are VERY scary. Current US Marine POLICY is to adapt tactics and targets on the fly. A target is a good target if you think that will help kill the enemy will to fight, and you can get to it. Imagine a computer, a cubic meter in size, programed with THAT mindset. The laser combat thing (kill the other laser/sensor; kill human eyeballs) is currently talked about in a few odd technical magazines. Are we SURE this is sci-fi? > The only thing that's certain is that it will still come down to 19-year-olds with rifles. "And the need to take and hold ground." Of course, if you're willing to just glass everything... As far as reuse/recycle: In a long, grinding war like the OGREverse proposes, both sides may be forced to standardize their equipment and usage in order to take advantage of captured/available supplies and materials. Current procurement practices and the lessons of Grenada have forced the various US services to standardize their equipment. The commands were surprised at how much better and cheaper the stuff got. Modularity is a powerful multiplier... Did the US Army ever standardize loaders and tank recovery vehicles on the M-1? If they did, they got better support vehicles and EVERY vehicle based on the M-1 chasis got cheaper. Front-line soldiers are incredibly tough and adaptable creatures and can often find a way to improvise or jury-rig anything into something they need or want. (The WW2 PT boat used surplus aircraft engines, for size, speed and fuel economy reasons. The PT boats were very effective.) The "digital kids" of today and tomorrow are no less adaptable, and will be as tough once they shed those extra pounds... I assume that "micronukes" don't vaporize a target, instead they inflict "just enough" damage to render it inoperable. Couple that with hardened mechanics/electronics and salvaging looks reasonable. If nothing else, the "captured materials" are hauled back to a forge/smelter and made into a strictly new item. Wray is right: the war would end in the first year from global radiation poisoning, if the nukes are big and dirty... Kirk Hunt Purveyor of Pulse Rifles ------------------------------ Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2000, by Steve Jackson Games.