============ OGREverse list, Dec 4th (Last: Nov 29th) ============= ===== Where are the mega factory complexes? From: Sethkimmel@aol.com ===== Minis delayed, all rejoice. From: Sethkimmel@aol.com ===== Infantry and Archaic Weapons From: "William Spencer" ===== Militia From: Stephan Beal From: "Hunt, Kirk (Tucson)" From: Fish Flowers From: David Morse From: Steve Jackson ------------------------------ From: Sethkimmel@aol.com Subject: Where are the mega factory complexes? << Biloxi, MS with Ingalls and Freda Goldman Halter >> I know Ingalls, but what the heck is a "Freda Goldman Halter"? ------------------------------ From: Sethkimmel@aol.com Subject: Minis delayed, all rejoice. In a message dated 11/28/00 4:16:39 PM !!!First Boot!!!, hcobb@io.com writes: << BTW, the miniatures are going to be delayed and it's a good thing. >> I don't know about that...We now have the giant 3'x2' Ogre map. I can't wait for the giant GEV and Shockwave maps. That'll REALLY make playing the boardgame versions fun...:-) (I get my cake and eat it too; I get minis and can play them using the original rules...). ----- [Yeah, but it means that this time things are going to go with a certain amount of deliberation, rather than rushing off a cliff on an unproven business model. If you want a cake to eat and a cake to have, you gotta wait till they bake two cakes. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: "William Spencer" Subject: Infantry and Archaic Weapons Regarding Militia: I kinda like the concept - I don't know what rules you'd use, but I think the idea of unarmored infantry fits well in the Ogre world. Yes, the big nations can build and maintain powered armor, but many of the small nations can't afford it en masse, and neither can the big nations near the end of the war! (I recall reading about how the Nazis, near the end of WWII, were pressing old men and the Hitler Youth into service...desperation leads to strange tactics.) Militia aren't necessarily poorly trained, just poorly equipped. I always figured power armor to be high-maintenance, anyway - militia are good for representing City Defense Forces, guerilla revolutionaries, or just the best that poor nations could come up with. Ditto for the archaic armor. Yes, no one used WWI tanks in WWII, but they did use WWII tanks in Korea...and many of those old tanks are STILL in service in some third world countries. I could see a scenario where two modern armies clash, while the woefully-underequipped "neutral" city in the middle tries to defend its borders with retrofitted tanks and unarmored infantry... Regarding the Symbols: I don't recall where the "infantry" symbol (the big X) comes from - I know NATO used it – but I do remember what those old symbols mean. (Or at least, the mnemonic used to remember 'em.) Infantry get an "X" - it represents the crossed straps of those old uniforms. Cavalry get a "/" - it represents the single strap. Artillery get a "bullet" - representing a cannon ball. Armor has an oval, representing tracks. I think the sideways "E" of Combat Engineers represents a bridge, but I'm not sure. ------------------------------ From: Stephan Beal Subject: Militia On Wednesday 29 November 2000 16:15, you wrote: > From: "Andrew Walters" > I'd love to see a description of their loadout for GURPS Ogre. Do > they wear BPC flack vests? NBC suits? What's a man-portable, BPC vest sounds cool, but, realistically, anything which the soldiers are up against is so likely to cause huge amounts of flak/debris/concussion, that protecting only the torso wouldn't be likely to do much good ("Yeah, that's Dawson's torso, all right - we could tell by the dog tag, which was buried safely in his vest. But where are his arms, legs, and head?"). The concussive force alone of a 21st-century-battlefield's weapon would be likely to blow the guy apart unless his whole body is "stuck together", as is the case with a battlesuit. > From: dwtulloh@zianet.com > Subject: Special infantry > What about having unready Militia pass a 'morale check' before they > can become ready again? In all probability, many members of the That's an interesting idea - just like a GEV becoming unstuck from a swamp or forest. > militia have never undergone fire before and so they'd be scared > stiff after having suffering the effects of their first micronuke > attack. You could also have two different 'grades' of militia - > green and 'hardened'. Green militia would have to perform the morale > check while hardened militia would not. Or perhaps grades: grade 1 must roll a 1 to recover. Grade 3 must role a 3 or less to recover. In a campaign game, perhaps specific units could even raise their Grade between battles, as a reward for valor. > From: "Hunt, Kirk (Tucson)" > Subject: Special Infantry > > Militia also become unready if they undergo a D result. A D removes > >one strength point from a militia stack, and leaves the others unready. > > Agreed The only problem with this is that it means a D against (effectively) unarmored troops is the same as against armored troops - not at all realistic, as it implies that the unarmored guys are hardier than the ones wearing BPC suitcases. This could be rationalized by saying that militia come in larger clumps of humans, I guess (with each D simply wiping out a bigger number of people). Of course, this need not be represented on the counters (sizes 1-3 is still good), but only in the rationalization. > *** An alternative to half strength accounting is to allow each unready > stack to have ONE shot, reflecting the likelihood of SOMEBODY (probably the > one Gung Ho, Rambo type) in the outfit pointing the right way at the right > time... I think all of them would _have_ to be Rambos to go out there without armor in the first place ;). > From: "Francisco J. Cestero" > Subject: Special Infantry > As this is my first post to this board I'd like to start by introducing > myself. Hi, I'm Francisco Cestero, an on-and-off-again OGRE player for > these past I-forget-how-many years. I started to receive posts from this Okay, everyone, this is the guy who's GEV graphics I keep plugging here. Don't let his humbleness fool you - he's actually done the math to find out how big an Ogre could feasibly be, based on some assumptions of the weight of BPC and some comments from the original Ogre/GEV texts. > Playing OGRE with > militia is like playing a game about the Gulf War with rules that make > allowances for units such as spearmen, lancers, and longbow men. Sure, > such units could have been deployed there, and I suppose they could be > modeled in game mechanics terms, but what's the point I wonder? Aye, aye. > either re-equip your forces, or you die. The battlefield has always been > cruel to those who keep trying to fight the last war with the last war's > equipment. I think it is worded in the GEV rulebook as "technology governs strategy." Absolutely. I picture my little paper miliaman being told (by his 1/2"x1/2" powered-armor sargeant), "Go out there and give 'em hell!" Well, as Fish Flowers put it in a response somewhere else in this thread, "Piss off!" > HJC: > The OGRE's objective is to disrupt the enemy planning directly by > assassinating the leader of the enemy force. OGREs are the villians of > the OGREverse and the heros are those puny humans who die screaming under > the treads, but collectively stop the beast. Eeek. I'd never really thought of it that way. I just tend to try to my my opponent feel guilty with comments like, "You just killed a man with a family!" > ... the mental image I have is some twelve year old > boy crouched by the side of the road with a one shot rocket, hardly daring > to breathe while he waits for the metal beast that destroyed his world to > turn the corner. -HJC] squish... > From: Fish Flowers > Subject: GEV Infantry Counters > > > Keeping three little sticks looking like little men of different > > types on those little counters is going to be real fun. > > ASL manages somehow... Still, you make a good point. It's easier to > represent differing kinds of infantry using standard military symbology > than it is to show slightly differing models of battlesuit. I've seen some people use the standard square-with-an-X, and then extend it a bit to show variant unit types: Assault Infantry (for example) adds a third slash through the square, and Heavy Infantry get a heavy black border for the square (these are all unofficial units, of course). > I think it ultimately comes down to a matter of taste. One possibility > might be to use depictions for standard INF, but keep the variant infantry > types as symbols; newbies will probably only be playing scenarios with > standard infantry anyway. Not if the variant infantry look cooler. ;) I think we can prove this by pointing to the iMac! (It can't do anything which a PC can't do, has about 0.1% of the software, and isn't appreciably cheaper, but people still eat it right up... because it looks good.) Of course, I'd love to play an opponent who based his unit choices off of this (I've played M:TG games where my opponents picked their cards "because they look so cool"). > From: "Duncan McEwen" > Subject: GEV Infantry Counters > On a related note, will new Combine counters have different silhouettes? > Although that would be cool, I think it could be confusing to new players. > “Why does your Hvy Tank look different from mine?” (Or different from last > print run.) Oooh, I hope not. I've always liked that they look the same :). I know it's not as realistic, but it's a heck of a lot easier to see while playing. > From: "Andrew Walters" > Subject: GEV Infantry Counters > If you think you can do interesting and serious in a 3/16" figure, > cool. But I think I lean toward the abstract symbol. Or maybe a single Battlesuit picture with a number on the chest (3,2,1). > I would mention that the counters could be larger, but that would > make it hard to deny that I need glasses. But its noticeably tougher > to play with very small counters. Bigger counters would mean the maps would need to be re-scaled, though, which would break "backwards compatibility." I'd be depressed if all these maps I've collected from the various reprints were suddenly useless. It's be almost as bad as if Wizards of the Coast changed the backing on Magic cards (err... what I meant to say, of course, was that if SJG changed the back of INWO cards). A tip for picking up the small counters in a "high counter density" area: lick the tip of your pinky, then just stick your finger on the unit. Works great. Take care, all! ----- Stephan Beal Generic Universal Computer Guy stephan.beal@einsurance.de http://www.einsurance.de ----- From: "Hunt, Kirk (Tucson)" Subject: Militia An additional response to Francisco: Francisco, your points are well taken. (HJC: My older son is 12. Your image really hit home with me.) The ascendant concept is that of necessity: British Biplanes attacked and hit the Bismarck in WW2. The Viet Cong knocked down all kinds of aircraft with Balistas. Afghanistan's Majahudin Kicked Russian/Soviet Air, Armor and Heavy Weapon superiority out of their country. Yes, they took casualties, but they won the war... You'd be surprised at what can be done with courage, determination and minimal technology... The primary problem of OGREverse Militia (maybe we should use the term Riflemen) is mobility, not combat power. They have to actually leg it, instead of powered leaping/running at a SUSTAINED 35 MPH. They'll NEVER charge an OGRE, but if they can hold the OGRE off for ENOUGH seconds... Modern assault (M-16, AK-47) weapons are VERY scary things. Boosted with rail technology, they will be that much worse. Part of the appeal of Railgun Tech is that it boosts speed without a LOT of kickback. Hand held rocket launchers have been in use since WW2. In fact, the Germany Infantry (WW2) were notoriously good at killing Armor. They had the technology and they used it well. The march of technology that creates OGRES and GEV's will put SOMETHING in the hands of the infantry. Riflemen are best used defensively against superior mobility. That's been true since the chariot was first invented. Sure the OGRE will clear the hex, but it WILL be badly battered in the process. Maybe too badly... Despite advances in technology, it still comes down to a combat soldier killing another combat soldier...or a tank...or a jet aircraft...or a Cybertank. Don't underestimate man's ability to kill things and each other. Kirk Hunt ----- From: Fish Flowers Subject: Militia For those of you making a simplicity argument, let me merely point out that engineers require more bookkeeping than tiddlywink militia do -- they have their nuke satchel charges to keep track of, after all. Militia just flip over, something which we do anyway with Disabled units. Whatever the decision is on militia, it should be well-playtested first... Dan wrote: > What about having unready Militia pass a 'morale check' before they > can become ready again? Eek. Far too complicated for Ogre/GEV. If I'm looking for morale rules, I play ASL. Anyway, if militia become unready when moving, and then need to pass a morale check to ready themselves, this reduces their movement rate to something approaching nil. Fish. ----- From: David Morse Subject: Militia "Henry J. Cobb" wrote: > It's that triumph of man over machine that requires that unpowered > infantry be allowed and the mental image I have is some twelve year old > boy crouched by the side of the road with a one shot rocket, hardly daring > to breathe while he waits for the metal beast that destroyed his world to > turn the corner. -HJC] Is it a triumph of man over machine if, two guys fight and the guy with the rock loses? Or is the other guy just a dumb, lucky sod who forgot to bring his own rock. I vote B. :) Seriously, though, the irregulars you describe woudn't be part of the same army fielding, say, a lance of GEVs and a Mark III. Irregulars should be built into scenerios, (ala the train), not be something that you can buy instead of that superheavy tank. Maybe they should not even be part of the player's command structure, but move and fire by a random table based on what's around them. ----- ["Paw, it says here we're a terrain feature." "Shuddup boy and pass the ammunition." -HJC] ----- From: Steve Jackson Subject: Re: Militia Here's a militia question - In most scenarios, I would expect only one side to have militia, and they might have a lot. Maybe instead of putting (for example) a 1 on the back of a 2 counter, I should put the exact same thing on both sides, but make one side black and one side white. That way all the militia counters are available to whichever player needs them. Comments? Steve Jackson - yes, of SJ Games - yes, we won the Secret Service case Learn Web or die - http://www.sjgames.com/ - dinosaurs, Lego, Kahlua! The heck with PGP keys; finger for Geek Code. Fnord. ----- [OK, mixing up Steve's and my ideas, here goes nothing. All Militia counters are grey, they'll all be assigned to one side or the other, they're all single platoon counters (no breakdown to squads) and the two sides of the counter indicate two seperate states (for the half-a-hex move each turn) Each platoon counter costs one VP each, and the defending player (these units are far to slow and bulky to make a strategic attack) chooses the state of each of his Militia platoons as he places them: Scurrying Militia: Attack 1/1, Defense 1, Move 1 Cowering Militia: Attack 1/0, Defense 1, Move 0 Militia movement: Each turn each Scurrying Militia squad may remain in Scurrying mode in its current hex or flip to Cowering mode in its current hex or an adjacent non-water hex. (They get no road bonus) Cowering Militia can remain Cowering where they are or flip over into Scurrying mode in their current hex. (Note: Militia may move at most one hex every other turn unless transported.) Cowering Militia may also be carried around inside but not on top of certain armor units. Each Hovertruck, APC or Truck may carry one platoon of Militia. On the turn they're dropped off the Militia are in Cowering mode, but may flip over to Scurrying mode on their next movement phase. Militia have their own attacks doubled in overruns, just like normal infantry, but all attacks against them in overruns are also doubled. (So an Infantry squad or OGRE AP gun attacks with strength four against Militia in overruns). Note that Cowering Militia have no ranged attack, but fire for full effect in overruns. All normal attacks (not overrun) against a hex with a Militia squad have full, not spillover effect against each Militia squad separately. (Just like town hexes. So please watch your stacking of upto five platoons per hex.) Militia out in the open are eliminated by D results on the CRT. Scurrying Militia under cover flip over to Cowering Militia when they receive a D result. Cowering Militia under cover ignore D results, (they're hiding and you'll have to X them out.) Militia get the same defensive bonus from terrain as infantry, but they get no defensive benefit from stacking. (There's only so many rocks to hide under in a given area.) Yes, one point each: 1 * (2" + (1" + 1" * 0.9)) + 2.0 * 1 * 1.5 * 2" = 3.9 + 6 = 9.9 * 1.2 / 12 is about a single point each. I.e., having about the same firepower and about the same defense as a single squad of infantry, their limited mobility cuts their price in half. -HJC] Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2000, by Steve Jackson Games.