============ OGREverse list, Dec 7th (Last: Dec 4th) ============= ===== Militia From: Steve Jackson From: Fish Flowers From: "Francisco J. Cestero" From: Stephan Beal From: VIPER394@aol.com From: "Duncan McEwen" From: "Hunt, Kirk (Tucson)" From: Todd Zircher From: "David R. Crowell" ===== Intersting article in The Economist on Land Warfare From: Trey Palmer ===== call for comments on Scramble! From: Dave Morse ===== Painting Deluxe OGRE From: "Steve" ===== Where are the mega factory complexes? From: Trey Palmer ===== Outdated Equipment From: Fish Flowers From: COkane8116@aol.com From: VIPER394@aol.com ===== strategy article (from an armchair general :) From: Dave Morse ------------------------------ From: Steve Jackson Subject: Militia dwtulloh@zianet.com writes: >What about having unready Militia pass a 'morale check' before they can become ready again? In all probability, many members of the militia have never undergone fire before and so they'd be scared stiff after having suffering the effects of their first micronuke attack. Have kicked that idea around. Neat . . . but bookkeeping. >You could also have two different 'grades' of militia - green and 'hardened'. Maybe for the minis game; maybe for a campaign game. But note that very few militia would SURVIVE to become hardened !!! David Morse sez: >Seriously, though, the irregulars you describe woudn't be part of the same army fielding, say, a lance of GEVs and a Mark III. Irregulars should be built into scenerios, (ala the train) That's what they are, most of the time. In some scenarios you have the option to trade INF for MIL if you want. I did a bit of that tonight in a game (and won). I wanted some real throwaway counters to seed one side of my map to make it look full of stuff. Only one of them ever got to attack, and its attack failed. They ran out there and shot at the Ogre and missed and it toasted them. This happens. Henry sez: >make them all gray Hmm! Let me sleep on that one!! >Militia have their own attacks doubled in overruns, just like normal infantry, but all attacks against them in overruns are also doubled. (So an Infantry squad or OGRE AP gun attacks with strength four against Militia in overruns). Interesting - but too complex? Would make them nastier but shorter-lived . . . and would mean that if they jump out and overrun YOU then you probably kill them all. I dunno about that. I'm still not SURE that they shouldn't just be doubled in overrun anyway for the same reason INF are; after all, MIL are wearing computer helmets too, and their guns are more likely to hit up close. Steve Jackson - yes, of SJ Games - yes, we won the Secret Service case Learn Web or die - http://www.sjgames.com/ - dinosaurs, Lego, Kahlua! The heck with PGP keys; finger for Geek Code. Fnord. ----- From: Fish Flowers Subject: Militia Henry wrote: > All normal attacks (not overrun) against a hex with a Militia squad have > full, not spillover effect against each Militia squad separately. (Just > like town hexes. So please watch your stacking of upto five platoons per > hex.) ... and ... > Scurrying Militia under cover flip over to Cowering Militia when they > receive a D result. Cowering Militia under cover ignore D results, > (they're hiding and you'll have to X them out.) Hm. Do you lose a platoon of militia to a D result, or do they merely cower? If you lose a platoon, the second rule is irrelevant, since all scurrying militia will be wiped out with the first D... Fish. ----- [They're dead in the open after a D, cowering if they've got cover to cower under and each platoon is rolled for separately, regardless of what in the hex was targeted (outside of an overrun). -HJC] ----- From: "Francisco J. Cestero" Subject: Militia Hello again all, Well, it appears I'm amongst the minority on the subject of militia here, so I will graciously concede after this final parting shot... First, Henry Cobb wrote: It's that triumph of man over machine that requires that unpowered infantry be allowed and the mental image I have is some twelve year old boy crouched by the side of the road with a one shot rocket, hardly daring to breathe while he waits for the metal beast that destroyed his world to turn the corner. -HJC Henry, I was with you the whole way -- right up the the "...unpowered infantry..." part. Part of the (dark) allure of Ogre is that a man can be armed with a flying battlesuit powerful enough to obliterate a current day tank platoon, and _STILL_ he has to cower in a ditch whenever an Ogre rolls around. And if suited infantry die like flies in Ogre, what chance, if any, is there for the _unsuited_?!? There were a number of other points I wanted to cover -- such as my opinion that in a world where the big powers don't lack for will to crush the little powers, low-tech insurrectionist don't stand much of a chance against overwhealming fire-power. That sometimes it really does boil down to "Iron, cold iron, will master you all!". The Vietcong have been mentioned, but they had help -- and lots of it, as well as relatively secure bases and moral support from the enemy themselves. The little guys in the world of OGRE are more like the French Resistance, who, if it hadn't been for D-Day would still be under German control (or maybe Soviet...if they were REALLY unlucky). But I'm sure that has occured to others on the list and for a number of reasons, it has been decided against. If most people want militia in the game, that's cool (but at least change their name to "Riflemen", please!). But as it's been mentioned before, we're going to need a _lot_ of these militia counters, and every one of those is a counter we can't use for something else. Has anyone considered what else could be done with that time and money? Things like Sea-going Ogres, counters and rules for amphibious landings, logistical support vehicles (for eventual inclusion in an operations level version of OGRE), mecha, variant infantry, bunkers, aerodynes, etc? I just don't want to lose sight of our "costs of opportunity" here. So if Riflemen are going to be included, I'll "shut up and soldier" and try to add something constructive to this debate... I haven't playtested Riflemen any, but my gut-check is pretty much along the lines being discussed. A Riflemen counter should be an entire platoon which can't be sub- divided. Personally, I don't think they should have the same firepower as normal Infantry (there is no way they could carry the same weapons or have the same mobility to put them to the same use), so give them an attack of 2/1 (per platoon). Move every other turn, and can't attack at range on the turn it moves (let's see you hit targets reliably from a mile away with a normal rifle while jogging along over terrain -- I don't care how good the gun or how powerful your scope, human arms just aren't that stable). The problem is that gives them a strike range of one hex, and that makes them about three times worse than if they had a strike range of two hexes, but face it: realistically, that's the best that nekid men can do. If you fudge the numbers, you run into issues of realism. With tanks, GEVs and Ogres we can do what we want, but everyone knows what men on two feet are capable of: and running at 15mph for half an hour while making mile long shots with their rifles isn't one of them. Now one possible fix for the mobility issue is to assume that Riflemen are really dirt-bikers (or something like that). They're still cheap, BMX's are still nowheres near the cost of Battlesuits. So give them a mobility of 2 instead of 1/2, but keep in consideration that their mobility will be somewhat restricted by terrain as they don't have the jump-jets of their battlesuited infantry brethren. Also, keep the "cannot shoot at range if they move" rule. For me that is the hallmark of Riflemen, and it models their lack of advanced fire-control stuff. This option would also allow them to be degraded by enemy fire, like other infantry. Basically, Riflemen should perform the same tactical role as caltrops. They keep those blasted GEVs from overunning the artillery but one lousy missile tank and they're all krispy-kritters. --Francisco ----- [How about Human mines? Range of zero and not revealed unless they move or are overrun. With very little metal and no active sensors it can be very difficult to detect flesh under cover several klicks away. -HJC] ----- From: Stephan Beal Subject: Militia > > What about having unready Militia pass a 'morale check' before they > > can become ready again? > > Eek. Far too complicated for Ogre/GEV. If I'm looking for morale rules, I > play ASL. Aaaaaamen, brutha! "Beer and pretzels" game, remember? "Keeps you looking at the board instead of the rulebook" (don't know who originally said that). > Seriously, though, the irregulars you describe woudn't be part of the same > army fielding, say, a lance of GEVs and a Mark III. Irregulars should be > built into scenerios, (ala the train), not be something that you can buy > instead of that superheavy tank. If they simply _must_ be included, then there's a nice way to do it without overcomplicating the core rules. > Maybe they should not even be part of the player's command structure, but > move and fire by a random table based on what's around them. This seems quite realistic in a situation of unarmored men in combat with machines covered in BPC and armed with railguns and such (the armor, not the militia). I can see myself saying, "dammit! Why did I even bother placing them on the board!" just after the blow up one of my LGEVs when "something over there moved!" After all, realistically, they might not be carrying the comm equipment which would allow them to know whether that dust cloud over yonder is one of Us or one of Them. > From: Steve Jackson > In most scenarios, I would expect only one side to have militia, > and they might have a lot. > Maybe instead of putting (for example) a 1 on the back of a 2 > counter, I should put the exact same thing on both sides, but make one side > black and one side white. That way all the militia counters are available > to whichever player needs them. Comments? This sounds like a really good idea. I think I like this other option better, though: > HJC: > [OK, mixing up Steve's and my ideas, here goes nothing. > All Militia counters are grey, they'll all be assigned to one side or > the other, they're all single platoon counters (no breakdown to squads) > and the two sides of the counter indicate two seperate states (for the > half-a-hex move each turn) If people really want to put militia on both sides, they can highlighter-pen a few of them to change the shade of grey. I've noticed through this thread that more "rules" have been presented for militia than for infantry, marines, GEVs and SuperHeavies _combined_ (only counting the "classic" games, since I don't have minis). That should come as a warning sign as to the possible complexity they'll add. I've got to vote for adding (leaving?) them in the minis game, but not in the classics. The classics are classics for a reason (AGTFOS hasn't changed in over years, has it?), and I'd hate to see them get the "WordPerfect syndrome", where they are added onto and added onto, ad infinatum, to the extent that it's design parameters are overstepped and it becomes too cumbersome to be useful. It is, and (IMHO) should stay, a Beer and Pretzels game (and oh, what beer and pretzels we get here in Germany! ;). I'm all for optional rules and such, but let's keep them out of the mainstream rules (lest my oponents claim a right to use them ;). GEVs simplicity has been at the center of appeal, and rarely a point of criticism, as far as I'm seen. Another topic: play tip o' the day: Put your maps under a piece of glass (I use a picture frame) and write the SP of your buildings, and mark your artillery ranges, on the glass with dry-erase markers. Draw out your Ogre records on the glass, too, or place paper copies under the glass and mark on top of it. Be sure to slide a copy of the CRT or terrain chart under the glass it as well, should you need one of those. I stick a generic Ogre record sheet under there as well, and fill it out before the game. The blank form looks something like: -------- Ogre Name: # MB 4/3 D4: # SB: 3/2 D3: # Missiles 6/5 D3: # Racks D4: # AP 1/1 D1: MP4: XX: MP3: XX: MP2: XX: MP1: XX: -------- Where: #: the number of each of those items XX: filled in to equal Ogre's treads per MP. So, a Mark III would be written like: MP4 : (blank) MP3 : 15: (hash marks go here) MP2 : 15: (hash marks go here) MP1 : 15: (hash marks go here) ----- Stephan Beal ----- From: VIPER394@aol.com Subject: Militia In adendum I realy should had read the whole list before repsonding Ok where do you guys get off saying that Millita are all teenagers and vetrans from two wars ago rember that An army With Several Regiments of Regulars Was soundly defeated buy an army comprized solely of millita on a small patch of the Virgina countryside in June of 1861 Millita are just the "weekend warriors" shure they don't have the latest gear But they do have some . and since it's in their own back yards they'll know the terrain better they should be weeker than regular troops but they shouldn't be useless ----- From: "Duncan McEwen" Subject: Militia Hey folks, here are my comments. (I have done some editing for shortness) Bigger counters would mean the maps would need to be re-scaled, though, which would break "backwards compatibility." I'd be depressed if all these maps I've collected from the various reprints were suddenly useless. It's be almost as bad as if Wizards of the Coast changed the backing on Magic cards (err... what I meant to say, of course, was that if SJG changed the back of INWO cards). (OT: Actually this already happened with WOTC once, look at the card game Jyhad, now called Vampire: The Eternal Struggle. Backs changed after the first printing.) For those of you making a simplicity argument, let me merely point out that engineers require more bookkeeping than tiddlywink militia do -- they have their nuke satchel charges to keep track of, after all. Militia just flip over, something which we do anyway with Disabled units. Maybe we need a Nuke counter to show who has charges. That would reduce record keeping, which is good. Whatever the decision is on militia, it should be well-playtested first... Eek. Far too complicated for Ogre/GEV. If I'm looking for morale rules, I play ASL. Anyway, if militia become unready when moving, and then need to pass a morale check to ready themselves, this reduces their movement rate to something approaching nil. Agreed on both points. > From: Steve Jackson Here's a militia question - In most scenarios, I would expect only one side to have militia, and they might have a lot. Maybe instead of putting (for example) a 1 on the back of a 2 counter, I should put the exact same thing on both sides, but make one side black and one side white. That way all the militia counters are available to whichever player needs them. Comments? Hmmm. This doesn’t work with the Ready/Unready concept. I still favor flipping Militia to show differences in conditions. I also still favor militia being a choice for both sides. I could easily see it happening in a city environment. Gangs that have joined up with one force or another to try to take the city. Henry’s stuff isn’t bad. Still seems a bit complex, but maybe the best way overall. Probably deserves a more though review than I have time for. Thanks, Duncan McEwen NA Combine ----- From: "Hunt, Kirk (Tucson)" Subject: Militia Folks, The Militias MUST be in "Fighting Suits," which are little more than sealed coveralls which keep the soldiers from breathing in isotopes. Maybe, a knife can't puncture them. No more. Also, there MUST be some reasonable explanation for not radiation poisoning the whole planet (maybe: ultra-short half-life isotopes) in the first place, or the OGREverse ends real fast. Even poor nations would HAVE to find the money/resources for the "Coveralls" minimum, or die. (Consider: Somali street fighters carry AK's or M-16's and have RPG's. Very comparable to what US Rangers carry.) The Blackhawks the Somali's shot down in Mogadishu were effectively "over-running" their defensive positions. Militia aren't exactly butt-nekkid... Again, History bears this out: American Revolution, War of 1812, Korea (at first), Vietnam, Afghanistan. The side with the tech (and sometimes the numbers) does NOT always win. As other folks have pointed out: When the Last War started, everybody fielded their best. As the War drags on over the DECADES, the average combat soldier wore less and less. Armor/OGRE's became more rare. Finally, Militia become the rule, rather than the exception. Or you can simply decide not to use Militia and move on... Allow me to point out how that the militia gun men in Mogadishu shot down two Blackhawk helicopters and shot up a Delta Force team supported by Rangers. The militamen were wearing sneakers and fighting from the back of pick up trucks. The Rangers and Delta Force guys were good. So were the militia men. > [OK, mixing up Steve's and my ideas, here goes nothing. > All Militia counters are grey, they'll all be assigned to one side or >the other, they're all single platoon counters (no breakdown to squads) >and the two sides of the counter indicate two seperate states (for the >half-a-hex move each turn) I disagree. Militia should be available to either side who wants them. (Players can ALWAYS choose not to play with Militia...) If purchased, Militia MUST be taken in groups of three, but can be broken to squads in combat. > Each platoon counter costs one VP each, and the defending player >(these units are far to slow and bulky to make a strategic attack) chooses >the state of each of his Militia platoons as he places them: >Scurrying Militia: Attack 1/1, Defense 1, Move 1 >Cowering Militia: Attack 1/0, Defense 1, Move 0 Agreed. >Militia movement: Each turn each Scurrying Militia squad may remain in >Scurrying mode in its current hex or flip to Cowering mode in its current hex >or an adjacent non-water hex. (They get no road bonus) At the end of each fire phase, Scurrying Militia flip over to Cowering mode. >Cowering Militia can remain Cowering where they are or flip over into >Scurrying mode in their current hex. (Note: Militia may move at most one >hex every other turn unless transported.) At the end of the next fire phase, Cowering Militia MAY flip over to Scurrying mode. >Cowering Militia may also be carried around inside but not on top of >certain armor units. Each Hovertruck, APC or Truck may carry one platoon >of Militia. On the turn they're dropped off the Militia are in Cowering >mode, but may flip over to Scurrying mode on their next movement phase. Militia are always dropped off of transport in Cowering mode. At the end of the next fire phase, Cowering Militia MAY flip over to Scurrying mode. >Militia have their own attacks doubled in overruns, just like normal >infantry, but all attacks against them in overruns are also doubled. (So >an Infantry squad or OGRE AP gun attacks with strength four against >Militia in overruns). Agreed. >Note that Cowering Militia have no ranged attack, but fire for full effect >in overruns. Agreed. >All normal attacks (not overrun) against a hex with a Militia squad have >full, not spillover effect against each Militia squad separately. (Just >like town hexes. So please watch your stacking of upto five platoons per >hex.) Agreed. >Militia out in the open are eliminated by D results on the CRT. I disagree. A Platoon of Infantry in the open are reduced one. Each full or partial Platoon of Militia are reduced one AND the rest are flipped to Cowering mode. >Scurrying Militia under cover flip over to Cowering Militia when they >receive a D result. Cowering Militia under cover ignore D results, >(they're hiding and you'll have to X them out.) I disagree. Infantry can be whittled, if nothing else. The same thing for Militia: Even hiding under a rock, that microtac nuke may STILL get them... >Militia get the same defensive bonus from terrain as infantry, but they >get no defensive benefit from stacking. (There's only so many rocks to >hide under in a given area.) Agreed. > Yes, one point each: >1 * (2" + (1" + 1" * 0.9)) + 2.0 * 1 * 1.5 * 2" = 3.9 + 6 = 9.9 * 1.2 / 12 >is about a single point each. >I.e., having about the same firepower and about the same defense as a >single squad of infantry, their limited mobility cuts their price in half. Agreed. Kirk ----- From: Todd Zircher Subject: Militia Kirk wrote: > Modern assault (M-16, AK-47) weapons are VERY scary things. Boosted with > rail technology, they will be that much worse. Part of the appeal of > Railgun Tech is that it boosts speed without a LOT of kickback. Technical Foul: 5 yard penalty Railguns do not violate the laws of physics. They kick like a mule and if not powered by a reactor require hard core batteries or capacitor-like ammo. Unlike gas operated weapons, you don't even have blow back to compensate for recoil. As a supersonic weapon, you never hear the slug with your name on it. > Hand held rocket launchers have been in use since WW2. In fact, the > Germany Infantry (WW2) were notoriously good at killing Armor. They > had the technology and they used it well. The march of technology that > creates OGRES and GEV's will put SOMETHING in the hands of the infantry. Given the incredible toughness of BPC, the Panzerfaust of the future might be a one-shot chemical laser (that can be refueled after a battle.) -- TAZ ----- [A faster slug has less recoil than a slower slug with the same amount of kinetic energy. -HJC] ----- From: "David R. Crowell" Subject: Militia I like Henry's final version at the way bottom of the last message. My own thinking was to have militia be able to move OR fire. M:1/0, D:1, 1/1 no multiple squad counters or combining strength for better defense or ofense the way infantry can. Double strength in overruns, terrain effects as infantry, 'D' results reduce by one point so 'D' in the open kills one squad. Spillover fire attacks at full strength (these guys don't have armour!) Simple, no book keeping and it captures the "feel" of militia, if not reflecting Ogre mini's particularly well. ------------------------------ From: Trey Palmer Subject: Intersting article in The Economist on Land Warfare In the November 18th - 24th 2000 issue of The Economist, there is a interestring article on the potential future of land warfare, something right up an OGRE fan's alley. If you subscribe you can access it at http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=423651 or your local library. The gist of it is that land warfare and armor are not going away, but there will be an increasing focus on fuel cell powered vehicles, research into railguns and other things that can lighten a tank and make it more deployable. It also suggests speed and ECM are going to be increasingly used to survive the field of battle. All in all a good article, easy to read and thought provoking. Hope you folks will enjoy it. ------------------------------ From: Dave Morse Subject: call for comments on Scramble! http://www.bomberlan.net/~dm/scramble.html has a new scenario for the shockwave map. The twist is the Paneuropean player controlls infinite armor units, IF he can defend his trains from the Combine raiders. The expertise on this list would be much appreciated, especially if you have input on the game balance. I have a hunch its massively pro-Combine, but don't trust the hunch till I hear it from someone else... ------------------------------ From: "Steve" Subject: Painting Deluxe OGRE I'm new to the whole OGRE game. Is there any where I can find a description of paint schemes or pics of painted minis so I can get some ideas for my own? Anyway, I'm glad the deluxe set is out, it's always more fun with minis. ----- [Look at the OGRE Minis book, chapter 12, Painting. Hopefully this will be updated someday with pics of the new minis. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: Trey Palmer Subject: Where are the mega factory complexes? > << Biloxi, MS with Ingalls and Freda Goldman Halter >> > > I know Ingalls, but what the heck is a "Freda Goldman Halter"? Another shipyard in the area. ------------------------------ From: Fish Flowers Subject: Outdated Equipment William Spencer wrote: > Ditto for the archaic armor. Yes, no one used WWI tanks in WWII, but they > did use WWII tanks in Korea...and many of those old tanks are STILL in > service in some third world countries. Actually, they did use WWI armor in WWII. Well, the French did. Then once the French turned belly-up and handed over all their Jews, the Germans took those old FT-17s and used them themselves. And there were plenty of WWI ships and artillery guns in use as well. Fish. ----- From: COkane8116@aol.com Subject: Outdated Equipment > Ditto for the archaic armor. Yes, no one used WWI tanks in WWII, but they > did use WWII tanks in Korea...and many of those old tanks are STILL in > service in some third world countries. > Just a historical note from a list lurker and a long time Ogre player. There was a WW1 tank used in ww2; the french FT tank was in widespread service. The french if I remember right had several thousand on hand when WW2 started. I do know the german wound up with many when France surrendered. I know a few smaller countries had them too like Greece. Christian O'kane ----- From: VIPER394@aol.com Subject: Outdated Equipment I know this nay be nit picking but yes the french had a few small Renault tanks left over from WWI in combat sevice in 1940 the germans took them and turned them into arillery tractors. Many countries still use WWII tanks In kosivo We were blowing up Tanks made in Detroit 55 years ago The russians still have T-34/85s and Js-2s stockpiled If it's a Choice between a tank 60 years old and no tank guess what the Answer Is? ------------------------------ Subject: strategy article (from an armchair general :) From: Dave Morse Here's another link for the list: http://www.bomberlan.net/~dm/gev.html I've only played 3 games of GEV in the last few years, so I hardly have the expertise of the average list member. However, I'm interested to see the responses I get. ............. Also, I've scoured your page on io, and I can't find a link to your forward observer rules. Are they in _Ogre Miniatures_, per chance? ----- [FOs are at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/gev/infantry.htm and updated in the new OGRE Book. I doubt they'll be included in new edition of OGRE Minis, as my view on the need to prop up Infantry and Howitzers is not generally accepted. Finally, in celebration of Pearl Harbor day, I'd like every American member of this list to write to their elected representatives (as soon as that may be resolved) and urge them to drop the silly US reservations about the formation of the Pan-European Army: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1055000/1055395.stm You might also mention that the Western European nations could overcome their lack of heavy lift capability by signing up the Russians. After all, there's no point to standing in the way of history. -HJC ;-] Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2000, by Steve Jackson Games.