============ OGREverse list, May 8th (Last: May 2nd) ============= ===== Strategic Rules From: Sethkimmel@aol.com ===== OGRE Miniatures From: "Garrett Briggs" ===== Map Symbols From: "William Spencer" ===== OGREs as three letter words From: Todd Zircher ===== Ogre Luna Rationalizations (LONG!) From: "Walter O'Hara" ===== Badlands map - anyone interested in a current version? From: Trey Palmer ===== Name an Ogre From: Steve Jackson ------------------------------ From: Sethkimmel@aol.com Subject: Strategic Rules In a message dated 5/3/00 6:48:32 AM !!!First Boot!!!, hcobb@io.com writes: << the only problem i am having is in terms of after battle reinforcements. should the companies get a percentage of their companies back as salvages or do they get assigned more forces from theatre reserve? >> How about this?: 1) Divide this into reinforcements and replacements. Reinforcements come from your theatre reserve, etc. Replacements are your battlefield salvages... 2) Base your salvages on who owns the battlefield. For example in the Napoleonic Miniature rules "Shako"; whoever holds the field at the end of the battle gets a much bigger percentage of casualty replacements (in this case representing stragglers, lightly wounded returning to the ranks, etc.; in your case representing salvaging and repairing AFVs...). I think the winner got 2/3 back, and the loser got back 1/2 or 1/3 (and NO artillery which were abandoned) depending on whether they were pursued by the winners' cavalry or not (determined by whether the loser had a "rear guard" or they just ran off the board...). This can also give LGEVs a new lease on life. I wouldn't commit them to battle, but hold them in reserve for a post battle "pursuit" (which affects your opponents ability to obtain replacements; see above). You might even add a rule saying that for each company or battalion of GEVs/LGEVs NOT used in battle, but used for either scouting or pursuit, you get (depending which role you assign them to...) either more destruction of the enemy (pusuit) or pre battle planning (ie advantages in how and where you set up your forces on the table) from scouting. Thus do you commint your hovers to battle (tactical numbers) or use them strategically (scouting and/or pusuit)? Hovers now have their traditional cavalry role... Seth ------------------------------ From: "Garrett Briggs" Subject: OGRE Miniatures >I hate to sound like sour grapes, but bi-decadely would be more >than enough -- it would just say "still looking, nobody good enough, >and don't violate our copyright (which we don't put to use) by making >some on your own... My sentiments exactly. To be honest, one can make incredible minis using posterboard, Elmers glue, and Rose Art paints. Steve, you should call them and talk about a deal! Anyone who is REALLY impatient about not enough minis, lets get some original works out there. Or if you want to work with me on a new future-combat game, where we can have our own "constructing minis" instructions and...? I have said it before, but this time, I am now adding... It's time for the new, and I'm going to make it! gcb garrett@hovercar.com ------------------------------ From: "William Spencer" Subject: Map Symbols I found an old (1960's) Army manual about map symbology - which symbols to use to represent units, emplacements, events, etc. on a map. Most of us are probably familiar with the basic symbols: an oval for "armor", an X for "infantry", a / for "cavalry", a dot for "artillery", etc. You can combine symbols, add modifiers, etc., for as much detail as you need. Anyway, I amused myself for a short time by creating symbols for Ogre-era units, using the examples given in Ogre Miniatures (Combine Fast Strike Battalion and so forth). Most of the units were easily adaptable - tanks and infantry and such are still the same. (I used cavalry to represent GEVs.) However, I had a few questions: There were symbols for individual units (like, a single tank instead of a squadron of them): are there symbols for singular GEVs? (Either today, or in someone's imagination.) Should there be a separate symbol for unarmored infantry ("militia")? If so, what should it be? And, of course, what should I use to represent OGREs? I used the armor symbol, but added a dot-in-a-triangle (looks like an eye-in-the-pyramid) symbol to stand for "artificial intelligence"; the same could be used to represent BOPPERs or other automated units. (Thus, three lances of AI tanks are probably a dozen Jack Boppers or Tiny Boppers and not a dozen Mark V's.) William Spencer williamspencer@hotmail.com ----- [My vote is that militia keep the standard infantry symbol and the armored grunts use a modifier. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: Todd Zircher Subject: OGREs as three letter words > Somewhere I have seen a three letter designation for the Ogres, > either in the Ogre fiction there has been or BOLO or somewhere > I cannot recall. Bolos. OGRE has always been a four letter word. :-) | "The Compleat Bolo", Y1990, page 313. -Hull style 'H', power | unit 'J', main armament code 'C'] Yep, TAZ has always been difficult to deploy. Fire, run away and recharge. Repeat until enemy is destroyed. I think the difference is in the user interface. Bolos are sages of war and interface well with humanity. OGREs, even if human learned to care about them, would have names that are hard as steel. Like Bastion of Blood (aka BOB), Widowmaker, Sword of Vengence, Steel City Killer, etc. It entirely possible that they might give names to each other, Ninety Eight Percent Kill Ratio. -- TAZ (aka RYK-333) ------------------------------ From: "Walter O'Hara" Subject: Ogre Luna Rationalizations (LONG!) Many thanks for the feedback on Ogre Luna, it was all very constructive. Some points I've been pondering: 1) Why would units be fighting on the moon at all? Isn't it a whole lot cheaper to fight back on Earth? This seems to be a no-brainer at first, since the Moon (from what we know of it) seems to be a worthless hunk of rock. What if it wasn't so worthless after all? I've read about experiments with the creation of high-strength, low density alloys in near zero-g conditions since I first bought OMNI back in 82 or so. If there's some commodity that could profitably be created in zero-g, wouldn't the Moon be a better site for factories than a space station floating at the L-5 point? Transportation might be marginally more expensive, but Heinlein created a novel boosting method in THE MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS that could (theoretically) boost cargo modules into Lunar orbit cheaply, to link up with tugs that could make the Earth/Moon run in a few days (yes, they could be sitting ducks... which adds another wrinkle to the scenario). Extrapolate this milieu, and all of a sudden Combine and Pan-European Low-Gravity factory complexes don't seem so absurd in context.... and yes, they'd be worth fighting for! 2) How would all those ground units get there? No matter how many times you do the numbers, boosting a tank into space isn't an idea that makes sense. Maybe a LIGHT tank, or GEV like vehicle... but anything heavier would be patently absurd. The obvious answer, I think, is that units get made there, at the factories. This is an excellent segue into a campaign game, paranthetically (reinforcements roll off the assembly line... straight into battle... if you lose your factories you're screwed). OGRES would be possible in this climate, surely... but the larger models (Mk III and up) would break the bank. Fighting on the moon is like fighting in an economy of scale where EVERYTHING (including the air you breathe) is measurable against cost. Therefore, I don't think restricting OGREs to MK II and below to be THAT restrictive. 3) Why is everything so expensive? I'm no economist, and I don't play one on TV, so take this with a grain of salt. My vision of what a lunar economy would be like would fairly restrictive. There would have to be a lot of investment by parent corporations (or Governments, assuming the Combine is Socialist) to get factories of any type started on the moon. Factories on Luna couldn't make EVERYTHING the colony needs to survive (particularly some of the higher tech goods) so there would be a parasitic relationship with the mother corporation for a good long while before Lunar Colonies became self-sufficient. This entails a higher cost in ABSOLUTE terms for just about everything; if the chips in your lunar tanks' targeting computer were made in Malaysia, think of how many steps it had to take (and duties & baksheesh that had to be paid) to get that chip put into your tank. Since we are in the OGRE universe, I based my prices on that. 4) Specific Comments from the list | As for terrain, I like the idea of cliffs but my preference would be not | to include LOS rules for cliffs. Ease of play is one of the great things | about Ogre and also, I think technology would tend to defeat this | particular problem. True... thought after looking at a the NASA photographic record of the Apollo expeditions (on the NASA Website) it's hard to ignore the lunar cliffs. On the gripping hand, "no LOS probs on Earth, why have them on Luna?" | You moonbase structure is a neat idea but if its available on the moon, | why not also on earth? I could see the use for a structure like this. Also, | you did not mention the existing structures (which I think? would work just | fine...nuclear power plant, Laster, Laser tower, etc). The Moonbase is really a concept more than a brand new unit. I absolutely agree that units from the existing Shockwave/GEV mix will be more than adequate for the Ogre Luna Variant, except in those cases where I invent a new unit. In fact, I've been contemplating expanding the notion a bit lately: "Moonbases: Use GEV/Shockwave HQs for these. Moonbases can be connected to other structures by underground railways. At least one structure in a series of connected structures (the railroad being the connection) must be adjacent to a nuclear power plant. Additional power plants can be purchased for other, non connected structures. A series of connected structures makes a power grid. If a unit fires on the railroad connection (see below), the defender rolls to see if the connection was maintained (1 or 2 on 1d6)." "When a moonbase is cut off from power, all militia and infantry units inside the structure are eliminated on a 1-2 on a 1d6, otherwise reduced by one. Space Marines are eliminated on 1 on a 1d6, reduced on a 2 or 3, otherwise they survive power loss unscathed (i.e., they were already suited up). Non space marine infantry may only defend in place until power is restored (no movement on the raillines)" | You also had a bunch of cool ideas for units but the additional cost does | not seem necessary. I realize they would be more expensive but since Lunar | units would only be fighting Lunar units the additional costs would be | equalized. Well, I think in absolute terms, it would be pretty danged expensive, see my comments above. | I like the idea of Moon Buggy and Landers but I think that GEVs would be | workable on the moon. I don't think they would be traditional GEVs in the | sense that they 'ride on a cushion of air' like a Hovercraft but with | gravity being roughly 1/10th that of earth you could get the same effect by | using downward pointing thrusters. (this would be ineffcient in earths | gravity but with the 10 times multiplier of the moons gravity I think it | would work well). That seems a tad inefficient, fuel wise. Seems to me I've read more than one reference to a GEV "riding on a cushion of air" in more than one reference (jump in here, Henry?). The vertical retro rocket approach works, I suppose, but what is your motive (horizontal) power? What are those giant fans in the back going to push against? If you replace them with jets as well, is this a GEV now? Tell yer wot, though... this is science fiction after all, nyet? Let's replace the GEV with our own series of SF vehicles. Since I've not read any loony (pardon the pun) notions of "anti grav devices" in the OGRE milieu, I'll have to assume that's light years away. What do we use instead? Wheels, treads, articulated legs or rockets. My personal favorite notion is a kind of "hopper vehicle"... a wheeled vehicle that has the ability to fire retros in short bursts to propel it along... sort of like a Jeep hopping along the Lunar surface like the astronauts used to run... Should we call them LUVs? (Lunar Utility Vehicles?) | I loved the Landers concept but this is another idea I could see working | on Earth (albeit with different technology). Although, this would be more | of a scearnario rule (kind of like 'rolling for reinforcements'). You could certainly do away with Landers and call it "rolling for reinforcments" (personally, I've never bought into the justification for the lack of air units in OGRE/GEV, but that's me). You can assume that the Landers "make the drop" off map and have the new units enter on the map edge somewhere. I imagine that's what's going on in the conventional game when reinforcements are being cited. The only defense I have for the concept is I think it's cool! :-) | The rules changes to Missiles and Howitzers dont seem necessary (although | I can see the fun in them). If you are firing projectiles on the moon I | think you could take the environment into account and modify your ordinance | to suit the circumstance (actually it might be easier for missiles and such | to fire since there is virtually no humidity, wind or a lot of the other | variables that modern fire control takes into account). No atmosphere to cause friction on the ascent, but hardly any gravity to bring the shell back down, either. Both points could be encompassed in a single variant rule, I think. Perhaps adding Forward Observors to increase accuracy (I think Henry wrote this at one point?)? | You also mentioned lasers, overruns, spillover fire ... it would depend on | what kind of feel you want your Lunar Ogre to have but it seems to me that | all those thing would still apply. 5) General thoughts about the "feel" (see above) I've never fired a laser (or bullet) in a near-weightless vacumn for some odd reason. It's been on my list of things to do. So I'm really *guessing* what the effect of this environment would be on combat. I see Lasers as having unlimited range in the lunar environment (due to nearer horizon and no atmosphere). I think the Laser Tower would become the defensive weapon of choice (this led me to dabble in LOS obstructions). I don't see chemical charged weapons (which would require a great deal of modification to work in a vacumn) to be very effective. Why? Well, ballistics would be very different on small arms. I'm not a physicist, so this is a very general hand wave: Assume you have an Earth weapon that fires a chemical (gunpowder derivative) charge. The projectile ways, I dunno, 10 oz. The rifling and sights on the rifle are (I presume) set for a certain ballistic formula for bullet drop (there's that atmosphere and gravity thing again). Take that gun to the moon. First of all, you'd have to figure out a casing that has an O2 charge in it to make it fire, or encase the gun in an oxygen tank. Next, what happens to the bullet when it fires? Does it retain accuracy in a weightless environment and vacumn? ariant: | | All lunar stuff should definitely be created by self-sufficient lunar | factories - sending rockets to the moon would be prohibitively expensive. Absolutely agreed. | (Either you have LOTS of ECM and stealth, or send up LOTS of decoys to | confuse the anti-air lasers.) | | What about collapsing the railway tunnels? A big nuke at the right spot | could cut the line. I like this notion a lot. It could create a possible hull breach on connected moonbases, as well as possibly break the power grid (see above). Good idea. | Infantry should probably be allowed to make a "jump" move, due to the low | gravity - for one idea on how it should look, look at Mr. Cobb's website. Roger that... that makes perfect sense, remembering the old movies of astronauts bouncing around on the moon. | >Laser Towers are allowed (encouraged) | | Should probably have effectively infinite range, due to the lack of | atmosphere. Agreed, see above. | I think this rule should be ignored....the usual space combat weapon, if you | can't get a big laser, is the missile. Missile accuracy should be no | concern. (Also, they can't "fly off into the atmosphere" - there IS NO | atmosphere!) typo. I meant "fly off into the vacumn," not atmosphere. We have differing views on missiles.. | Ditto, here. In fact, howitzer range should probably be _increased_ due to | lack of atmospheric disturbance...on the other hand, the range of EW units | probably is also increased, reducing the howitzer accuracy...er, better | leave ranges as they are. The notion of a howitzer round (assuming it could fire at all) going on and on and on has a certain elegance. Alas, I doubt it's worth adding into the mix at this ground scale. | | Radiation? Units in this game | are pretty well shielded when it comes to that. On the other hand - you | might want to extend your "target acquisition rules" to include _all_ units, | and claim that this is the effect of increased solar radiation - sunspots - | cosmic rays - etc. And that's not a bad idea! Fighting on the moon is NOT a weightless carbon copy of earth. The "soft factors" make it interesting... wear and tear on vehicles, increased exposure of vehicles and targeting systems to radiation, etc. | | >Would Overruns still be possible? What about spillover fire in a vacumn? | | Since an overrun is combat at point-blank range, they are still entirely | possible. Presuming, of course, that the unit fired is a chemical weapon. Spillover fire: according to the rulebook, most units fire | multiple warhead independently-targeted submunitions (GURPS: Vehicles calls | it "SATNUC"), so the spillover is due to all the little submunitions which | missed the main target, but still hit the general area. And nukes will still | have a blast radius in vacuum (just mostly radiation, no atmospheric impact) | - so, yes, spillover fire will remain. A raditation suit on Earth = A radiation suit on the Moon, I guess? I've always read that these grandiose "space explosions" we've seen on Galactica and Star Wars, etc. are so much bunk. Things don't blow up that way in a vacumn. Does this effect "submunitions explosions"? I would consider this questionable. Anyway, thanks to the list, this is a very cool dialogue we have going. Email: Doktor_Rat@HumanoidLOATHESPAM.Net(remove the LOATHESPAM or it won't send) Voicemail: 1-888-Excite2, ext. 703-413-1000 Talking Email: http://vsnetcall.vstream.com/beep/beep_nonmemb.asp Homepage: waltohara.freeservers.com PBeM Emporium: pbem.brainiac.com ----- [A good reason to build a lunar base. Put a BIG laser down in the middle of a giant circle of solar cells and wait for the Earth's rotation to bring the enemy capital city into view. The only problem with this is that the Earth based lasers would win before the Lunies finished their project. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: Trey Palmer Subject: Badlands map - anyone interested in a current version? To the list, Hello all. This is my first post and I look forward to reading more as the Year of the Ogre heats up. Using the Battletech Map editor I've put together a updated map for Badlands in .bmp format (I can save to jpg if necessary), and was wondering if anyone would be interested in using it or putting it up in place of the existing map on the SJGames Ogre Scenarios page. As it stands it has glowing craters where the old blacked out hexes used to be. Also, from my best efforts it looks like the numbering is the same. Also, has anyone tried this map out using the Mecha and Cyberwalkers in Ogre rules? BTW, is there any chance that some version of the map will be reprinted in future Ogre products? Thanks for the forum, ===== Bowden "Trey" Palmer Sneering at something is an admission to failure. You are claiming superior talent or insight ... but declining to use it. The best way to "sneer" at something, if you must, is to improve or out do it. E-mail: trey_palmer@yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Steve Jackson Subject: Name an Ogre This should be fun. I just dropped two "Name an Ogre" items into the auction - people can bid on the chance to name an Ogre in GURPS OGRE. Jackie, we may need to have you make them "go" a little faster in order to get them finished in time for me to work with the winners to get the names into the book! Steve Jackson - yes, of SJ Games - yes, we won the Secret Service case Learn Web or die - http://www.sjgames.com/ - dinosaurs, Lego, Kahlua! The heck with PGP keys; finger for Geek Code. Fnord. ----- [Hmmm... When did I first ask for GURPS OGRE? Dang!, I wasn't the first, see: http://www.io.com/~hcobb/gev/1997/gevaug20.txt -HJC] Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2000, by Steve Jackson Games.