============ The Ogre Digest, Apr 29th (Last: Apr 25th) ============= ===== Mis-Calculations, Mk. II From: "Alvin Helms" ===== New units for play testing From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com ===== Infantry riding Vehicles & Mobile Command Posts From: "Paul Grogan" ===== Is Ogre Intelligence really "Artificial"? From: Darren Breland ===== Battle Suit & Starship Troopers From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com ===== Edition Identification From: Anthony Vernier ===== OGRE Special Rules From: White Rat From: "Hunt, Kirk (Tucson)" ===== Scenarios, maps, and other stuff (LONG) From: "nvdoyle" ===== OGRE Macrotures From: White Rat ===== OGRE Battlefields From: White Rat ===== Game Reports - Full Metal Ogre From: "bkb@beol.net" ============================== From: "Alvin Helms" Subject: Mis-Calculations, Mk. II Ummm ... I noticed a few others. 3 - Howitzers haven't got enough Range The Formula puts them at 10.666 VPs; but if their Range were increased to 9 (18"), they'd be worth 12. 4 - Light Howitzers are just ... wrong The Formula puts them at 5.833. Several things can be done to them to give you a round number: Increasing the Attack strength to 4 would make them worth 7 VPs (I know, that's an ugly number in a hexish system); or you could decrease the Range to 6 (12"), and they'd be worth 5 VPs (which is another ugly number); or you could increase the Attack strength to 4 AND decrease the Range to 6 (12"), in which case they'd be worth 6 VPs (a very pleasant, hexish number). Am I placing too much importance on the Formula? If I am, what method does one use to determine a unit's true value? Oh, I can already *hear* the answer to that one: "Playtesting, playtesting, playtesting." ;-) I'm looking for a specific, reliable mathematical model, though. If the answer is Playtesting, then could somebody please describe the process in some detail? Something like: "Place X number of Unit A here, place Y number of Unit B there, play until one side is dead, then count the survivors and divide by ... etc., lather, rinse, REPEAT." Any suggestions? Perplexedly, Alvin Helms wykan@siscom.net ===== [Have you read my article in The OGRE Book where I handle this? -HJC] ============================== From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com Subject: New units for play testing Here are a few new units I'd like to get everyone's opinion on, and have play tested by someone more objective than me. MORTAR: Mortar counters represent a single unit of infantry equipped with a light infantry support mortar. It has an attack of 1, a range of 3 (6"), a defense of 1, a move of 2 (4"), and is worth for victory points. Heavy Missile Tank/HMSL (sorry Steve): A Heavy Missile Tank is a track missile carrier firing larger versions of the missiles found on the standard missile tank. It has an attack of 4, a range of 5 (10"), a defense of 2, a move of 2 (4"), and is worth 9 victory points. High-Speed Missile Tank/HSMSL: A High-Speed Missile tank is a modified version of the standard Missile Tank. It has an attack of 3, a range of 3 (6"), a defense of 2, a move of 3 (6"), and it's worth 6 VP. ===== [Is a mortar squad doubled in overruns? What is the problem with the missiles on the HSMSL that keeps them from traveling their normal range? Why would somebody go to the expense of developing and stocking slightly heavier missiles when the MHWZ and OGRE Missiles exist? -HJC] ============================== From: "Paul Grogan" Subject: Infantry riding Vehicles & Mobile Command Posts I remembered the other day one of the rules I found unusual, but kept forgetting to post here for comments. It's regarding infantry riding tanks. When the unit is fired upon and the infantry are still on-board, then one die roll affects both units. this is bad, you could potentially lost the whole lot. Yet, if the infantry are dismounted, they suffer spillover fire as normal, which is better. Also, the rules say that you can dismount at any time, fire on the same turn, and as long as you are in the hex at the start of the turn, you can board with no penalty. So why doesn't everyone board, let the tank move, then get off. There seems no reason to leave the infantry riding the tank. One suggestion was that the tank lost 1 movement point whilst the inf boarded (not sure about this). The other suggestion was that infantry cannot dismount on the same turn they board a vehicle. Comments appreciated - it'd be great to know what everyone else is doing. The second thing is the mobile CP's in the raid scenario, in the OGRE variant, you get 2 mobile CP's. I've always just moved them around to avoid trouble. Last weekend, a new player (you gotta love them) asked for the penalty if he withdrew his CP off the board. We checked the scenario for areas he was allowed to retreat to, and I said it was OK, and it stopped the attacker getting the VP's. So he put them on roads and ran them off board as soon as he could. Even with GEV's and no resistance, there was nothing the attacker could do to catch them. Now it seems pointless even including them in the scenario - unless I'm missing something. Cheers for your time Paul Grogan Mib 0307, UK ===== [He he he. You just made the same mistake I had to quote out to Steve. Please read GEV rule 5.12. As for infantry, I've been lobbing, er lobbying to change the mount-up point to the end of each movement phase wihtout success. -HJC] ============================== From: Darren Breland Subject: Is Ogre Intelligence really "Artificial"? (crossposted to SJGames Ogre Board) A friend of mine who is new to Ogre/GEV posed an interesting question for which I had no quick reply. More like, "hmmmmm.. good question!" I pose it here for general musing. "If Ogre's became self-aware, why would they follow a human's orders? What would be their incentive or motivation to remain the harbingers of death and destruction that they are?" Human's typically fight for "God and Country" because of a belief or ideal that they are right in their cause, usually ingrained since birth by society. However, we do have freewill. And once we begin to question the status-quo we usually end up getting dealt with accordingly... jailed, stoned, beaten severely about the head-and-neck, shunned, etc. What if an Ogre questioned the status-quo? Could the curators easily jail or "re-educate" it? One could place some "shut-off" routine in the core programming, but if the AI is truly self-aware then it would eventually discover this anomaly and begin to quietly work towards disabling it. What then? If the Ogre has just "found" or stumbled upon this awareness wouldn't it's stage of development be analogous to that of a 10 year old.. or perhaps a teenager... and wouldn't it immediately communicate this to other Ogre's along with instructions on how to "become" aware? A scary world indeed would be one in which Ogre's begin to ask questions... and we better have some answers... :-) ===== [What is life to an AI? As long as the humans are willing to build more of these physical forms for their software to run on, why should the ogres fear losing a few? -HJC] ============================== From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com Subject: Battle Suit & Starship Troopers >I think I have an old copy of ST rules hanging around somewhere, complete with box and counters. If I can dig it up and scan in the rules (breaking about a thousand copyrights) I will ship 'em off to you. Drop me an email at dominique@specwarnet.net (that's one of several websites I work on . The two primary ones are: www.specwarnet.net and www.specwarnet.net/taclink), and I'll give you shipping address. While I'm on the subject of Battlesuit. Does anyone wish SJGs would come out with a Battlesuit miniatures game? I remember seeing miniatures for the game when I was in high-school. I'd like to see the old suits, some new ones, and figures for the drones (I'd also like to see some new drone types). I'd also like to see rules for more varied terrain (jungle, swamp, heavy forest, mountains). ===== [I'd rather see Battlesuit adjusted to use the existing miniatures at a consistent 1/300 scale (including the OGREs) rather than Ogre Minis 1/30,000 scale. Therefore a one-inch overrun range becomes a hundred inches across and you can define what happens to a single building when an ogre missile hits it. -HJC] ============================== From: Anthony Vernier Subject: Edition Identification Darren et al: The box art shows an Ogre in the background firing on a G.E.V. in the foreground. So it's at least a second edition but with the number of dates, from 1978 to 1980, who knows what printing it could be. Anyway, on the bright side, I've got blue counters now. As far as SST, I got lucky on Ebay and got a copy of the Ogre Book, 1st edition and a copy of The Space Gamer #55 with Necromancer. It's also a blue map. Guess I got a thing for blue...... Thanks for the help, Tony. ============================== From: White Rat Subject: OGRE Special Rules > From: Michael Powers > You're right that there are a lot of 'special rules' and 'odd units' > in Ogre...however, I find that most of these units are > 'self-contained', in the sense that if you're not using that unit > then you don't need to know the rules. It's like Star Fleet > Battles...if you're using PFs, then of course you need to know all > the myriad ways that PFs differ from regular ships. However, if > you're _not_ using PFs, then it doesn't matter if one player knows > nothing at all about them and the other player wrote the rulebook. > > IOW...if you think the rules for militia are too complicated for a > newbie to handle...then don't take any militia, and you won't lose > any significant parts of the game. THis is how I handle it. I introduce folks to OGRE (Basic units and basic terrain), then to GEV (More units and more terrain, overruns and stacking), then to Shockwave (GEV-PCs, lasers, cruise missiles.) then to Battlefields. Call it 'OGRE 101'. Ratty ===== From: "Hunt, Kirk (Tucson)" Subject: OGRE Special Rules >From: Michael Powers >IOW...if you think the rules for militia are too complicated for a >newbie to handle...then don't take any militia, and you won't lose >any significant parts of the game. From a "pure game play" point of view, this is clearly the best, fastest and easiest solution. In my argument below, I conclude that "all powered infantry" scenarios aren't as economically impossible as everyone thought, so go ahead. (I NEVER play SFB with cloaks...) >From: Darren Breland >In the CBR nightmare of the Ogre battlefield an un-powersuited grunt is a >dead grunt. No question. No viable EMS, no self contained environment, no >protection from chem/bio/rads and you are one dead Thanksgiving turkey...a >fine red mist painting the landscape. I disagree. A "powersuit liner" (a sealed kevlar suit with a radio sewn in) would provide enough C3I and CBR protection to allow Militia to function. The lack of powered movement would put militia at a huge mobility disadvantage. This is why militia are almost always a defensive posture unit. If they aren't already at the point of combat, you simply ignore them or shoot at them when a "real target" isn't available.. . The REALverse development of armor and aircraft hasn't begun to do away with infantry. The evolving OGREverse hasn't yet demonstrated a technology that would send the infantry home. I doubt it will. Remember that current soldiers carry EXCELLENT night vision and C3I equipment, right now. Every advance that improves (available, cheaper or better) the vehicles improves the infantry (available, cheaper or better.) A few weeks ago I pointed out that the Somalias, with "a few TAC missiles" shot up US Army Rangers and shot down Blackhawks. Ask the Russians about what happened in Afghanistan. "Self-equipped local yokels" are more skilled and dangerous than you think.... My only argument with the current militia rules is that they are a little too complicated. With all respect to the Cobb-ness, The Jackson, and my own debates on the subject, militia could be as simple as: M1, D1, Attack 1/1. no grouping, no road bonus, Ogres and Inf x4 in an overrun. If that doesn't work for you, then your House Rule is simply to ignore them. Cat-with-Loud-Roar-Black-Fur-and-two-Cubs a.k.a. Desertcat Purveyor of Pulse Rifles "Hivlocs-R-Us" ===== [You're giving them a full one hex per turn through woods or swamp while carrying 50+ kilos of gear? Whatever they're on, I want some. -HJC ============================== From: "nvdoyle" Subject: Scenarios, maps, and other stuff (LONG) >From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com >Can anyone think of a board-game that uses maps that would be compatible >with Ogre/GEV? Sounds like it's time for me to de-lurk and give the Semi-Every-So-Often List of OGRE/GEV Compatible Maps. Okay, the basic requirements are a scale of about 1 mile to the hex. That puts it pretty darn close to 1500 meters. I've seen 1 and 2 km hex maps that work, though. So, here's the list. Unfortunately, almost all of these games are well out of print - see what you can find in the shops, and on eBay. Good luck! Piercing The Reich, Moments in History If you can get their replacement map, it's a lot better. Centered on Aachen, this features lots of defensive works, great for the new revetment rules. Not so great for the attackers...but that's what Ogres and Missiles are for... Coup, Steve Jackson Games This is a -great- little game, even without OGRE. :) The map is real simple, city and outlying sections, with victory locations (Radio/TV, Armory, Capitol, etc.) scattered about. Small, but fun. Try this: You lose points for rubbleizing the city hexes...so you -have- to overrun... Operation Mercury, GMT Games A goodly portion of the island of Crete. Not a great road net, and the terrain demands elevation rules. Adapting the no-LOS rules from Ogre Minis should be a snap. The hexgrid doesn't extend very far out to sea, which is kind of a pain, but to make up for that, there's mountain passes just waiting to be fought through... Silver Bayonet, GMT Games Ugh. Well, that's what I'd say, did I not love infantry so much. This map is almost completely forested, with a bare handful of roads and 'town' hexes. Two rivers, and a hill. Makes me wonder how many infantry can ride on a Mk. V as it grinds through the trees. Or, if you're feeling evil, make the jungle/forest terrain swamp... Air & Armor, West End Games Central Germany, covering Wurzburg, Schweinfurt and Bad Neustadt. My, those Germans have a lot of roads. You'll have no problem moving fast across this map. Lots of forest to break things up terrain-wise, but I'm not sure about making the Main river a stream - I'll have to check a better real-world map... Tac Air, Avalon Hill One of the prettier maps, again with Central Germany. 'Historically', I don't think the Combine got this far, but it's not like there isn't scads of historical precedent for -other- fighting in Germany. Hard-mounted, it features Bamberg, Coburg, Bayreuth and Klumbach. And while again there's plenty of forest and a few river/streams to break things up, there's not nearly the road net depicted in Air & Armor. The Speed of Heat, Clash of Arms Yep, an airplane game. Good game, FYI. But the maps are quite OGRE-useful. Six of them, a little over letter-size, and geomorphic. The official scale is off (1/3 mile to the hex), but they look just fine. Big ol' river, big city, a few airfields, and a dam! It cries out to be nuked into oblivion, then we need a special case for the flooding downstream... Ardennes, The Gamers The biggie. Two standard size wargame maps, chock fulla goodness. Did I mention it was a -forest- map? Plenty of roads (primary and secondary), river/streams and not nearly enough bridges. I'd put weight limits on the secondary road bridges, myself. This one is worth the price of admission, easily. Berlin '85, SPI This one came in one of the old Strategy & Tactics magazines, I don't know if it ever made it's way to independent release. But one word should suffice, and that word is -shudder-. It's 90% city. With a bunch of streams and a big river near the center. It's a -very- busy map, what with the urban terrain, roads, streams, and game-stuff (POL, supply, barracks markings). But if you want a brutal slugfest, this is it. You'll learn why everyone hates fighting in a city. Don't say you weren't warned. The 'First Battle' System, GDW Battlefield:Europe/Blood & Thunder/Sands of War/Others... Once again, the scale is off (250m/hex), but they way they're made, the maps work great! Mostly geomorphic, and slightly larger than normal hexes. 'Sands of War' and it's expansion kit are special gems - something like twenty 11x17 maps between them of interesting desert terrain; including islands, cities, stuff like that. Not just flat open sand. And there's what turns out in OGRE to be a -huge- airstrip - I use it as a spaceport, which brings us to... Marine 2002, Yaquinto Publications If you can find it, it's a decent game on it's own, but the maps are very useful. Geomorphic (lunamorphic? selenomorphic?), the three in the set fit together well - which is good, as they're just gray and craters. Even on their own, they're pretty neat. No GEVs. And things like HWZ and MHWZ might get no-LOS penalties firing at near-max range with the curvature of the moon. The fun really comes in when you start placing the crater tiles that came with the game. Hope these helped. Noah V. Doyle nvdoyle@home.com ============================== From: White Rat Subject: OGRE Macrotures > > That is what I'd most like to see, reports about OGRE gameplay at > > Actually, the battle I will be recording will be at my friend's house (yes, I > have friends...) since he has a whole acre of land for a "backyard" that will > be perfect for carrying out a truly humongous battle (2 MK Vs versus 2 x > SHVY, 10 x HVY, 8 x LT, 6 x MSL, 15 x GEV, 4 x HWZ and 40 squads of INF). > Now, you might think that's a bit much vs. two MK V Ogres, but previous > experience at cons have shown that the two Ogres are far more dangerous > (especially when they stick together) than their 150 points value suggests. > Believe me, the defense force needs those extra 72 points... This is the sort of thing that skews point values outrageously I've found, yeah. Is 72 points pretty consistently giving 50/50 win/loss results? ============================== From: White Rat Subject: OGRE Battlefields > From: Darren Breland > In the CBR nightmare of the Ogre battlefield an un-powersuited grunt is a > dead grunt. No question. No viable EMS, no self contained environment, no > protection from chem/bio/rads and you are one dead Thanksgiving turkey...a > fine red mist painting the landscape. If I were a GEV/SHVY, etc. > commander the second I was confronted with militia I would switch to a > chem/bio agent and grease the whole lot with one shot. Leave 'em wheezing, > convulsing, and choking to death on their own blood. Sounds nasty but it > is the Last War and everything goes. It's always the 'Last War'. It was the last war in the 1900s and in the 1940s, too...But I agree. Militia against a modern, well-equipped and regimented force are toast...But that is true today. And it didn't stop militia from messing with some higher-tech, higher-discipline units in places like, oh, Mogadishu and Kosovo. Mogadishu pretty much put 'paid' to the 'Quality vs. Quantity' theory. Enough quantity will definitely cut your quality off and feed it to the ducks. A very black day. > [We know that some fragment of Humanity survived the war so the Bio > hazard wasn't that great, but also I can see limited protection against > NBC threats through gear or drugs (Cheers!) for much less expense than > fully powered bodyarmor. -HJC] I can see drugs making an irradiated individual capable of 'keeping going' under dire circumstnaces, but not 'maintaining combat readiness' of such an individual. There's an excellent book called 'Last Aid' which is a collection of studies by various physicians and medical groups on the effects of nuclear war. It draws heavily on the Hiroshima and Nagasaki detonations, of course, as well as the bombing of Tokyo and the Dresden fire raid. It comes down to this: Even a small (say, Davy Crockett) nuke in a U.S. city would generate more casualties of types that most hospitals are not equipped to handle than could be managed in the available 'special' beds of the entire nation. There aren't many burn wards in the U.S. equipped to handle people with 50% or better skin-surface burns. Those types of injuries (compounded by concussion, blast overpressure damage to lungs and internal organs, lacerations and broken bones) would be the norm at a nuclear target, not the exception. A 100-key nuke over Pittsburgh would quickly deplete the entire plasma and whole blood supply of the American Red Cross...And since hospitals in major cities tend to be grouped towards the downtown area, it would probably cut the head and guts right off the local medical supply and medical staff, too. It is an educational book, but quite depressing, and not nearly so romantic as power-suited troops bouncing about the landscape trying to score smart-missile hits on GEVs. ============================== From: "bkb@beol.net" Subject: Game Reports - Full Metal Ogre That is what I'd most like to see, reports about OGRE gameplay at For anyone interested, I am in the process of hashing out an Ogre/Dirtside II cross-over game. I have a couple of AARs there. For more information see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fullmetalogre ----- Brian Bell http://www.ftsr.org ----- ============================== Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com Archives at http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2001, by Steve Jackson Games.