============ The Ogre Digest, August 1st (Last: July 30th) ============= ===== Missile Defense From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com ===== New Ogre Options From: "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" ===== Killing Zone From: Servitor@aol.com From: Aerron Winsor From kirk.hunt@honeywell.com Tue Jul 31 08:30:56 2001 ===== Clean Minis and New CM From: "Hunt, Kirk (Tucson)" ===== Mark IV on the field From: largecardriver5@webtv.net (e.w.markle) ===== INF riding Ogres? From: Stephan Beal ===== Disposable Iron Men From: Stephan Beal ===== Dim AI From: Stephan Beal ============================== From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com Subject: Missile Defense << I'd think that long-range ballistic missiles, either 'historical' types like we have now or 'smart' types like Henry describes, would be used more like the V-1 and V-2 than anything else; you just fling a few into your enemy's territory each day as a way of saying "hey, we're still here, and we're pissed! Bye now." >> An effective defence was the first step toward the concept of a "winnable" nuclear war. Which is why Nixon backed off and got the ABM treaty working. If anti-missile systems get too good, someone will decide they don't have to play nice anymore and go back to conquest. Ignoring the fact that what you conquor is a radioactive wasteland and the fallout is killing people in your cities as well. ============================== From: "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" Subject: New Ogre Options New Ogre Options: I just though that I would pass along the following Ogre options that I have played with: Trapdoor Ogre: This Ogre replaces a Main Gun with a concealed Cruise Missile. Usually the Main Gun appears damaged. The Ogre advances in combat using its secondary weapons. When it get to optimal range, the false Main Gun falls off the front of the Ogre and the Cruise Missile is launched. The Ogre then, usually, withdraws from the battle. The False Main Gun provides Def/4 for the Cruise Missile until it is fired. If the False Main Gun is destroyed, the Cruise Missile has Def/1. If the Cruise Missile is destroyed in the ogre, all systems of the ogre take a 2:1 attack. After the cruise missile is fired, a Def/4 door falls into place protecting the interior of the Ogre. This concept has been seen on Mark I, III, V, and Fencer chassis. On the Fencer, 10 missiles are removed to make room for the cruise missile; the front doors (Def/4) for the cruise missile are undetectable until they are opened. In all cases, the Ogres are indistinguishable from the normal version until the cruise missile is ready to fire. This concept was originally developed by John Hunter. Rampage Variant. The Rampage Variant of Ogres has been seen on every version of Ogre fielded. It is a simple refit, replacing the AP guns with Light Guns (LG). These are equivalent to the guns from a Light GEV (1/2). This has proved to be quite an effective upgrade at very little cost. Cost: Add 1/2 armor unit equivalency cost to the Ogre for every AP converted (3 points in Miniatures). The LGs are Def/1. Stormbringer/Incubus Ogre. The Stormbringer/Incubus Ogre carries a sophisticated remote Ogre Reprogramming Device (ORD). The device is classed 1-6. It has a range of 2. It is only useful against Ogres. When it makes an attack, use the Mark of the target Ogre for its defense rating (i.e. Mark I is 1, Mark III is 3, Fencer is 4, Dopplesoldner is 6, Ninja is 4) and the class of the ORD as the attack strength. If the attack succeeds, the Ogre is reprogrammed and changes sides. When the ORD is fitted, it replaces an Ogre Main Gun or 2 Missile Racks. This variant should only be used in scenario-specific engagements (i.e. not competition, or as replacement for armor). Once fired, it takes a number of turns equal to its class to recharge. It was named for its ability to steal the "soul" of opposing ogres. --- Brian Bell bbell1@insight.rr.com ICQ: 12848051 AIM: Rlyehable YIM: Rlyehable The Full Thrust Ship Registry: http://www.ftsr.org --- ===== [Ogres have got to be weight or space limited (which adds up to the same thing, with respect to armor) and the systems you suggest replacing weigh more or take up a great deal more space. Using GURPS OGRE numbers, a cruise missile weighs as much as all six of a Mark-V's ogre missiles and the LGEV main gun weighs more than all four of Mark-I's AP guns. Would you try the advanced ogre scenario with the Mark-V's 12 AP guns replaced with four 1/1 D1 unrestricted weapons? The Cobb formula says that this is an even trade... -HJC] ============================== From: Servitor@aol.com Subject: Killing Zone > [Hey, you're not supposed to leak anything about Killing Zone! >Though it would be nice to have a resticted area on Pyramid to discuss it. AAAIIIEEEE! You're right! It was just a slip of the tongue, honest! Ahhh! Who's knocking at the door!? PAUL!! NO! Put down that noodle!! Aiiieaaghh! Seriously, my apologies if I HAVE stepped out of line. The Ogre-PC (from KZ) was bandied about years ago in letters and old newsgroups files, and I haven't actually said anything about it, now have I? fnord. Oooh, good idea about the Pyramid discussion area. guess I better stop procrastinating and sign onto Pyramid Magazine. >Question: If for the standard advanced OGRE scenario, you changed >the rules so that the Mark V's missiles moved as cruise missiles (with their >standard 6 point warheads), would the game still be balanced? >If not, what would it take to balance the scenario? A D3 CP? Add a >laser tower to the defending forces? -HJC I just layed out my standard OGRE map and tried the MK V scenario with the defense given the laser tower. I used the solo system out of the OGRE Book and added a die roll for targeting for the missiles. The MK V ended up shooting two of them at the CP (both intercepted) and four of them at GEVs and a SHVY (lucky shot vaporized the SHVY with its new D5 rating). None of those shots were intercepted because I didn't bother trying (although, at the time, I sorely regretted the SHVY decision). Instead, I took my 2 factors of laser and plumped them on the Ogre's AP weaponry with the thought that it might make things easier for the infantry when I hit the Ogre with the entire wave. It did, somewhat. The Ogre still had secondaries... With the Ogre's MA down to one and my armor gone except for a GEV and a MSL, and only four squads of INF left, I pulled the INF back, bombarded with the MSL, Hit and Ran with the GEV and lasered. Everything on the treads. The Ogre staggered two more hexes and died. It still had two secondaries left, but was two hexes out of range. I will try again with the Laser instead of the Tower, but I think the Tower is too much compensation for allowing Ogre missiles to "cruise". Yeah, you can nitpick about my Laser Tower targeting, the Ogre's (random) decision to only shoot two missiles at the CP, etc. But the OGRE map is simply too open for the defense to get a Laser Tower (unless there are REAL Cruise Missiles in the attacker's arsenal as per the scenario). Now, if you say that LLOS is blocked when the Ogre is right next to a crater or rubble line (that intercedes) that might help enough... best, flunky (Servitor@aol.com) ===== From: Aerron Winsor Subject: Killing Zone couldn't it be discussed in the current ogre playtest group? ===== [If we discuss it in an open forum then the people who haven't got it will get all agitated. -HJC] ===== From kirk.hunt@honeywell.com Tue Jul 31 08:30:56 2001 Subject: Killing Zone Killing Fields? Where? Who do I need to kill ...uh, er... ASK about getting in? Please? Desertcat Purveyor of Pulse Rifles ============================== From: "Hunt, Kirk (Tucson)" Subject: Clean Minis and New CM Subject 1: Ogre Miniatures Versus Ogre/GEV. The Nuclear Satchel charges make mini-Engineers too powerful. The same size satchel of C-4(4) can cut roads and inflict general havoc without the ability to make craters. This leads to The differences between OM and O/G really could afford to be cleaned up, one way or the other. I'd rather see a single unified rule book with painting and miniatures rules in a separate, clearly marked, section. They could even be folded into the rules and marked with a cool little graphic... Subject 2: Non-nuke Cruise Missiles What would a non-nuke cruise missile look like? I think it would have a blast force of 30-40 attack points. The unit hit, including Ogres, dies. Every other unit in the hex would suffer a full attack of 15-20 points. This would tend to guarantee that every armor unit in a town hex would "roll over" (disable), and definitely rubble the town. Most importantly, the blast would not fratricide any missiles two or more hexes away. Comments? Desertcat Purveyor of Pulse Rifles ===== [There already is a "non-blast" version of the Cruise Missile in OM. -HJC] ============================== From: largecardriver5@webtv.net (e.w.markle) Subject: Mark IV on the field Just as a curiosity. Has anyone heard about when, if ever, SJG will produce a MKlV or a MKVl Ogre? I'd like to field one on a tabletop before I die of old age. That's a plea for sympathy, did it work? Ed ============================== From: Stephan Beal Subject: INF riding Ogres? > From: "Andrew Walters" > > Here's a few problems with INF Riding Ogres: > From a psychological point of view, canon says they're afraid to get > near friendly Ogres, and this makes sense. The Ogre is not human. > The Ogre will consider them as anonymous and expendable in a way even > a military bureaucracy couldn't approach. The Ogre will not be > friendly, they will not build trust with it, they will consider it > unpredictable. They can't depend on it to watch their flank or back, > since in an instant the Ogre could accurately calculate that their > flank or back is the eighth or ninth most important thing on the > battlefield. I've gotta disagree about the need to defend the infantry: it depends entirely on what the Ogre's priorities are! Granted, priorities may change, but I can't see the Ogre at least not warning the infantry of the change in plans (one turn is 4 whole minutes, after all, giving plenty of time for the battlesuits to jump free of the Ogre). If it somehow determines that the survival of the infantry is "important", then it would help defend them, perhaps even going out of it's way to enter cover which may protect them, or turning it's side to nearby enemies so the infantry could shield themselves on the other side against flak and near-misses.. > Worst, the Ogre doesn't *need* them. Again, it does if it's priorities say it does. Perhaps in a highly-stretched campaign the general may decide that too many losses are unacceptable, and to pull back if losses get to point X. Then they're a priority by direct order. They could also be a priority just because of the nature of the scenario (e.g., "X attack points of units must surive..."). > ... Many weapons target the Ogre, and most of them > detonate harmlessly against 1.2m of BPC or are destroyed in mid-air > by point defense. All these nearby explosions don't bother the Ogre, > but they'd blow infantry off the tank, and probably disable them in > the process. Fair enough. The Ogre has some pretty big bumps the infantry could use as extra shielding, especially considering that they know the directions attacks are coming from. It could also be assumed that the infantry can hop off momentarily (to take cover by the treads, for example), to shield themselves from an attack, then they hop back on. They're in powered, jump-capable suits, after all. > It would not be a safe place at all. A clever enemy, > and aren't they all, would take some long-range shots that couldn't > possibly hurt the Ogre (ie way beyond listed weapons ranges), but > which will scatter the infantry. If infantry has ECM heavy enough to hide their location, the Ogre is gonna have LOTS more. While it would obviously be a relatively easy target, due to it's sheer size, the ECM could certainly mask the fact that the Ogre was carrying a few extra nobules the size of it's AP guns. Visuals would be needed to see them, I think. > But, truth be told, I don't want to see a Ogre-PC. It puts the Ogre > in a subservient, chauffeur role. The Ogre I love is the scary, > independent monster - not a team player. I guess it also has to do on one's vision of the Ogres (and perhaps "AI" in general). Computers are simply tools. A standalone computer is a relatively useless tool nowadays, too. I can't see any computer-driven object as being anything _but_ a team player, just as your computer was being a team player by accepting this email. They can play together to any extent their programming allows for. Humans in the military learn 100% team-play (often if someone doesn't play by the rules, people die, so it's rigidness is understandable). I can't see the generals making exceptions for computers, just for the sake of cinematics and drama. > If we must have one, I think each squad that enters or exits receives > an attack equal to the combined to the combined attacks against that > Ogre in either the preceding or following combat round, or perhaps do > some combat-during-movement along the lines of anit-cruise missile > fire; that's the moment the troops will be most vulnerable, so they > will be attacked that round. What if the infantry are stuck inside sealed modules, perhaps with a D1 or D2 "pod" for each squad it could carry? >From HJC: > lifting body, (Like a stubby version of the space shuttle), that glides > down on a five gravity deceleration path to deliver the nuke right above > the target point. Wouldn't this make the possible paths easily calcuable by the target? They could then defend accordingly - no use monitoring the air straight above, for example, because they'd theoretically know the angles they've got to watch. ??? > It's a white hot target at this point, but a very agile > one, who's only source of energy is the height and velocity the first two > stages gave it. Doesn't that very fact make it less agile? I mean, because it can't rely on air temps and thermals and such to be predictable, it couldn't ensure that it could get back on course if it deviated to avoid an attack. It's just a hypersonic hang-glider by then, isn't it, at the mercy of the local weather conditions? A storm, for example, could drastically change the attack path, especially with heavy precipitation. Granted, the thing is hypersonic, and probably won't be budged _much_ by that stuff, but it could get knocked off course a bit. > Overall this design should be about as complex to develop as a standard > ICBM, but cheaper to build and much more effective against any defense yet > proposed. Oh, great! Let's propose ways to turn the world into the OGREverse ;). ----- stephan@wanderinghorse.net http://qub.sourceforge.net - http://gwm.rootonfire.org http://byoo.rootonfire.org - http://dungeonmaker.sourceforge.net "Now I'm not normally the kind of person who likes to trespass, but sometimes you just find yourself over the line." -- Bob Dylan ===== [There are places even a Ninja Ogre cannot go. Now imagine the Ninja with a squad of stealth suited assassins. -HJC] ============================== From: Stephan Beal Subject: Disposable Iron Men Infantry, infantry, everywhere... but what the hell good do they do? I'm speaking ONLY of Ogre "classic" rules here: In the Ogre Book, second edition, SJ makes a statement along the lines of "one hallmark of good players is how they handle their infantry." It's been my experience that infantry can save the day by stripping those last stubborn treads, so I won't dispute that statement at all. I've seen some people completely misuse them. I can't say that mine are ultra-effective, however. In the Basic Scenario, my 15 infies tend to get 3-6 treads on their way down (though sometimes more or less, of course). And I normally hold them back somewhere within 5 or 6 hexes of the CP. Should 3-6 treads be considered "decent usage" of infantry? Are there tactics which can generally outperform that? Are there any players out there who throw the infantry into the front lines, losing them early on? Any players who simply ignore them? In short: what do you do with you infantry? I'd be very interested in hearing some tips/advice/experiences regarding this little-discussed topic. Also... On Sunday 22 July 2001 05:58, you wrote: > From: "David R. Crowell" > Subject: INF riding Ogres? > > Anybody have any thoughts on whether or not INF should be allowed to ride > on "friendly" Ogres? An Ogre certainly is large enough to carry a sizable > number of infantry squads. I would think that the larger weapons firing > might have a detrimental effect. I believe it's the GEV rules which state something like "consider: a tank is a _stable_ platform compared to what infantry are used to!" While I don't completely agree, I would think that a multi-hundred-ton tank would actually go quite smoothly over most terrain. I can't imagine feeling small bumps, as one does in a car when they run over an armadillo. And those sloped sides of an Ogre might provide some cover for the infantry (though not enough to warrant any DEF bonus, since the Ogre itself is a big target and they're standing on it). > Not to mention the "You want me to ride on > WHAT!?" factor. As the rules also state: ...prefer to keep a respectable distance (preferably several miles) even from friendly Ogres. > No, this is not a call for the Ogre-PC, although if anyone > is twisted enough to devise stats for such a beast.... Visit http://byoo.rootonfire.org and build one (use the "cargo bay" add-on to add infantry-carrying capability). I'm sure there are already a few variants of this idea there, though. Speaking of BYOO (Build Your Own Ogre): If you haven't been there before, the BYOO site can be found at: http://byoo.rootonfire.org I haven't touched that source code in about a year, mainly because there have been no complaints about it's functionality. If anyone has gripes, bugs, wishes, etc, feel free to email them to me. I know some of the views need to be cleaned up to better handle the large number of Ogres, but I'm not aware of any other big problems. The best source of inspiration for such things (as in Ogre) is the interest of the users. Also, if anyone else here can code in PHP, I'd be interested in setting up a CVS repository and test site to co-develop it with others. I can provide the server space and such, but won't do it unless there are other capable PHP coder with a genuine interest. One interesting feature might be to set up a mailing list, where Ogre record sheets are emailed to the members as new Ogres are added to the database. Take care, ----- stephan@wanderinghorse.net http://qub.sourceforge.net - http://gwm.rootonfire.org http://byoo.rootonfire.org - http://dungeonmaker.sourceforge.net "Now I'm not normally the kind of person who likes to trespass, but sometimes you just find yourself over the line." -- Bob Dylan ===== [Split the infantry up! A secondary battery against a squad averages 3/4ths the damage it averages against a full platoon. -HJC] ============================== From: Stephan Beal Subject: Dim AI > From: "Herb Diehr" > Here's a concept to think about. I saw a Goliath Ogre on Build Your Own > Ogre (Search BYOO) and saw something I really liked: a cheap Ogre with very > little to it. A Mark III with no weapons, just it's power plant (ready to > blow!) Well, for 9 Armor Points, this is potentially a great tool. Just > run forward until a good position is found and then blow. Take three of > these instead of a Mark V in the basic scenario and watch the fun! Sure is > a different issue. The Goliath is not an original idea, but taken from one of the articles in the SJ site. Also note that the armor cost uses the "Cisco method", devised by Francisco Cestero (http://cisco.rootonfire.org). It uses those because I knew about them before I learned about "Henries". The results between the two methods are always quite close, however, so I've never bothered to make it count in Henries. > Now, putting a smart AI in this seems wasteful, so I suggest putting in a > dumb AI (by comparison). I don't think I'd like to spend the money or > talent needed to build the brilliant AI in normal Ogres, nor have that > bright a mind knowing it was created to blow itself up. Too risky to > eventually have one come to life and blow in the factory! I'd even go so far as to say pre-program the approach path, and only activate the dumb AI if things got really hairy. > So, how about a dim AI? This would reduce the cost of any Ogre by 1 Armor > Point and add 1 to all die rolls against it (I call it the Anti-Ninja). No > other effects. Opinions? Very, very interesting, except that I would not add 1 to rolls against it. The reasoning is that it would know how to _move_ as well as any other Ogre, since that is not a truly intelligent task, but one which is relatively easily calcuable. Poor movement is then reflected in poor _play_ of the Ogre, not because of using lower-cost parts. What I would suggest instead is subtract one to rolls it makes (and probably just for non-missiles, since missiles have their own brains). But in that case I would also give a significant armor cost cut: 10% or more. This makes it much less deadly. Or perhaps just reduce the number of guns it can fire in one turn? A limit of 2 guns/turn for a Mk III-size, or 4 for a Mk V, for example. I couldn't suggest a cost reduction value on that, though. ----- stephan@wanderinghorse.net http://qub.sourceforge.net - http://gwm.rootonfire.org http://byoo.rootonfire.org - http://dungeonmaker.sourceforge.net "Now I'm not normally the kind of person who likes to trespass, but sometimes you just find yourself over the line." -- Bob Dylan ===== [How about if the Ogre just had to announce all of its attacks at the start of each fire phase, before rolling any dice for its first attack, what sort of discount would that be worth? -HJC] Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com Archives at http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2001, by Steve Jackson Games.