====== The Ogre Digest, December 1st (Last: November 29th) ======== ===== Big scale maps From: "Grogan, Paul" From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker From: Darren Breland From: stephan beal ===== Missile Racks in Overruns From: largecardriver5@webtv.net (e.w.markle) From: "David R. Crowell" From: "Paul Chapman" ===== Mark IV miniature From: Kevin Walker From: "Paul Chapman" ===== Laser AA Systems Today From: White Rat From: Todd Zircher From: Darren Breland ===== Strange Things From: Darren Breland From: "Paul Chapman" ===== Cruise Missile Problems From: Darren Breland From: Sethkimmel@aol.com ===== Engineers From: Sethkimmel@aol.com ===== What happened to Russia? From: svref@yahoo.com ===== Another Militia post From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com ============================== From: "Grogan, Paul" Subject: Big scale maps > From: Servitor@aol.com > > The Ogre minis community is fairly starved for maps at the moment. The > > only published "big scale" maps are the old Ogre and GEV maps. > > I would love to see SJ Games come out with a "Map Pack" for OGRE > Miniatures. > At least four doublesided maps (mostly morphic to the existing maps, > natch) > If you haven't seen the OGRE section of my website go have a look www.btinternet.com/~paulgrogan Big Scale OGRE maps, as IMO, the miniatures game just doesn't work for the finer points of OGRE (i.e overrun), which can be a crucial part of any scenario. Anyway, here's how I did them. Warning - this takes a very, very long time and requires an awful lot of patience. 1. Get in contact with the guys at SJG and convince them it's in their best interest to burn you a CD copy of all the maps in their original form. Being an MiB and a member of the demo team, and demoing OGRE across the UK was the only reason they let me have a personal copy, so please dont flood them with E-Mails. 2. Enlarge them to 250% original size 3. Hack the jpg file up into 20 sections, each A4 in size 4. Print them all off 5. Trim off the white edges carefully 6. Laminate each single sheet 7. Trim the laminate 8. Stick them together so that the whole thing folds up nicely. I've done all 6 maps, G1-3, S1-3 but 3 of them were done on a different printer and so the colour is all wrong. At some point, I will redo them 3. Paul Grogan MiB 0307 UK ===== From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker Subject: Big scale maps > Big scale maps > I would pay $20 to $25 for such a product. Comments? I'd be willing to shell it out for these as well. The big question is how much they would cost to produce; it's the old cost effectiveness trap. The most wonderful thing inthe world won't be made unless there's some $$ in it ;-) Schoon ===== From: Darren Breland Subject: Big scale maps >From: Servitor@aol.com > >I would love to see SJ Games come out with a "Map Pack" for OGRE Miniatures. >At least four doublesided maps (mostly morphic to the existing maps, natch) >comparable in size to the existing G.E.V. map. >I would pay $20 to $25 for such a product. Comments? I have seen a lot of people express desire for new maps. I would gladly pay for maps for Mini's. SJ Games please take notice. It wouldn't be hard, simply expand the maps that you currently have made up for Shockwave and Battlefields, send em "To the Printer", have them blow em up, print em on glossy paper, pack em and sell em. We'll buy em! -D. ===== From: stephan beal Subject: Big scale maps [John Hurtt:] > I would love to see SJ Games come out with a "Map Pack" for > OGRE Miniatures. > I would pay $20 to $25 for such a product.  Comments? i'd buy it and i don't have minis. That price sounds fair, too, assuming the maps are durably laminated or made of light plastic. i wouldn't pay that much for standard paper maps ($8-$10 for those). ----- stephan Generic Universal Computer Guy stephan@einsurance.de - http://www.einsurance.de Office: +49 (89)  552 92 862 Handy:  +49 (179) 211 97 67 "Attention is narrowed perception." -- Alan W. Watts ============================== From: largecardriver5@webtv.net (e.w.markle) Subject: Missile Racks in Overruns Hi Henry, About the overrun / ogre missile debate. I fail to see the concern? Just who is going to pop numerous missiles in an overrun? They don't grow on trees. Even with a missile rack and missiles to spare. What ogre are you running and getting into such a fix that you've got to pull out your big stick and whack with it. If your only salvation is numerous missiles in an overrun, you were already in a deep smelly hole. Tell me. Your ogre isn't self aware is it..... don't be ashamed. Everybody has that trouble sometimes.... (snicker, snicker.) Seriously. Ogres are more often mission specific. You are out to do something. If you have lost your mains & 2ed's I guess you use what you have left. Your trying to complete your mission. But if have other options your missiles have your greatest range. Shooting it at my own feet, so to speak never crosses my mind. I guess I play ogres differently. And I like infantry. What can I say? OgreLord ===== [One shot Missile Racks means that an undamaged Mark V can jump a Fencer or Mark IV in an overrun and crush it. That's ninety percent of the game effect. -HJC] ===== From: "David R. Crowell" Subject: Missile Racks in Overruns Missiles, Missile Racks, and Ammo Counts in general. GEV rule 8.071 states that each missile rack can only fire one missile per _turn_. I would read this as meaning that if a missile rack fires during overrun combat it may not fire again in the combat phase. The rule goes on to state that each missile rack destroyed destroys one missile as well. Ogre/GEV is a sufficiently abstract game that arguments over exactly how many warheads an Ogre missile launch includes are somewhat pointless. At game scale and level of abstraction the answer is one missile, one attack, one ammunition unit, etc. In a game with a different level of detail and abstraction such as GURPS Ogre or Battlesuit that answer might be different. As for using the miniatures as references, well.... we now have at least two minatures for each unit class, both have the same stats, but very different looks. I would guess that the Combine fielded more than one type of heavy tank, the Paneuropeans more than one style of GEV etc. Yes as been pointed out teh guns on the models don't correspond in all cases one to one with the firepower factors on the counters. They don't have to, the game is too abstract. Otherwise Paneuropean missile tanks should only get three attacks per game. After that the missiles on the launch rails would be gone, just like Ogre missiles, no one is proposing that are they? I like Ogre as a simple, fun, beer&pretzels game, not a detailed and sophisticated simulation of small unit, combined arms combat actions in a near future setting. I find many of the proposed addition sto the game add a level of complication I do not want, however if someone were to produce a Renegade Legion style version of Advance Ogre with that level of detail, I would be interested. A different game with a lower level of abstarction and a finer grain of detail would make increased rule complexity acceptable to me. ===== From: "Paul Chapman" Subject: Missile Racks in Overruns > From: stephan beal > > "GEV 8.071 Missile rack rules. The "missile rack" is a new weapons system > > not seen in _Ogre_. Each missile rack can fire one missile per turn. The > > missiles are stored inside the Ogre and can only be fired through a missile > > rack. Therefore, an undamaged Mark IV can fire three missiles per > > turn. However, a missile rack which has fired may still attack a Cruise > > Missile on the same turn, providing it has the additional missile > > available. > > This all makes good sense except that we're missing one detail: if a > snapshot is effectively a "partial" shot, and not a whole volley, why is it > taking up a whole missile for purposes of ammo expenditure? A snapshot would require the entire "missile" because it was essentially a shotgun blast, as opposed to a directed strike. > > "A missile rack may fire once per fire round in overrun combat, until the > > racks are destroyed or the missile supply is exhausted." > > Actually, after thinking about it more, i like the old vagueness better ;). > It seems everyone has worked out an interpretation which they like for > their own games. For example, someone suggested earlier that missiles in > overrun always have spillover effect on all units in the hex (and i'll > start using that ruling as well). Of course, an official ruling would be > needed for those doing tournament play, or for players who can't agree on > an interpretation. Well, this is as official as you'll get until OM2 :/ > > Does that help? > > Yes, indeed. Thanks for your detailed response :). You're welcome. > From: Darren Breland > >Does that help? > > > > Yep, sounds good to me. But you may also have to add clarification in the > Overrun section as well. "Add clarification to the Overrun section..." puts you in the running for understatement of the year:) > From: "Peter Hatch" > Personally, I think the rules should be changed so that a Missile > Rack can fire any number of missiles in a turn, and at least the > values of the Ogres that use them changed. That's a pretty radical alteration. Anyone else want to weigh in on this, pro or con? ===== [Big tumbs down from me. Chopping off three fourths of a Fencer's missile racks should reduce it's firing rate by three fourths. OTOH, in GURPS OGRE, there isn't a missile rack (or missile tank missile!) equipped unit in the game that can't fire off every missile carried in less than four minutes. -HJC] ============================== From: Kevin Walker Subject: Mark IV miniature > From: "Paul Chapman" > Which is a long way of saying: the IV will look like the III and V, but > not like the "in-between" step. For those that haven't had a chance to see what the Mk IV miniature looks like I was fortunate and able to acquire a few shots of one after it's been assembled and primed white. I put a copy of these shots up on Yahoo Photos and if you'd like to take a look go to http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/oracle2be/lst?.dir=/OGRE+Miniatures&.src=ph&.last=1 Hopefully someday the owner will get around to finishing the paint job and when that happens I might be able to get some more shots of it up...someday. Kevin Walker Horizon Concepts, Inc. Miniature Painting & Sculpting sage@chartermi.net ===== From: "Paul Chapman" Subject: Mark IV miniature > From: Sethkimmel@aol.com > > << Which is a long way of saying: the IV will look like the III and V, but not > like the "in-between" step. >> > > hmmm....perhaps the MkIV should be the size of a MkV, but with a bigger aft > hull (for the missile magazine and the speed 4 powerplant), and a smaller > front hull (less guns), with a MkV sized tower? Picture gluing a Fencer aft > hull to a MkIII front hull...:-) (which I was SERIOUSLY contemplating to make > an ersatz MkIV; just file off one of the four missile nose cones on the > Fencer rear hull, but now I don't have to...) The only problem with this description is most tanks have their powerplants in front, dragging their afts. But other than that, you've got the right idea . . . ===== [Ogres rely on electrical power transmission that is sent by redundant channels to little tread motors. (Each of which is roughly equivalent to one man in hand to hand combat. ;-) So it's simply a matter of selecting some part of the chassis with sufficent weight and space capacity to hold the reactor. -HJC] ============================== From: White Rat Subject: Laser AA Systems Today > From: Todd Zircher > > There is one significant 'flaw' in Darren Breland's article about AA > lasers. The AA laser is only as good as the fire control sensor it > is attached to. The same stealth technology that defeats a SAM site > will be the same technology that allows a jet to fly past a laser based > AA site. Next generation wild weasels and their missiles would be > stealthly and perhaps coated with an ablative layer so that it can > survive the inital laser attack and deliver a killing blow. As to > decoys, the same chaff that spoofs a radar guided missile will affect > the fire control systems of a laser. Stealth, yes. Ablative layer, probably not. The old 80s assumptions about ablative layers and 'spinning the warhead' to minimize laser effectiveness on ballistic weapons all gave up the ghost when military laser technology went towards the 'one really fast, powerful pulse' rather than 'Star Wars' beams that waved around and expended energy more slowly. Ratty ===== From: Todd Zircher Subject: Laser AA Systems Today Henry Cobb writes: > Why not use optic rather than radar tracking for a laser? Because black paint is even cheaper than radar absorbent materials? A defense system that only works during the day time is half of a defense system. The best bet would be a multi-spectrum sensor group, but I'm not sure about the engineering challenges in that. -- TAZ ===== From: Darren Breland Subject: Laser AA Systems Today >From: Todd Zircher >The AA laser is only as good as the fire control sensor it >is attached to. The same stealth technology that defeats a SAM site >will be the same technology that allows a jet to fly past a laser based >AA site. Sounds good to me. WW's are a great counter to the once "impervious" SAM threat. Those WW guys are NUTS by the way. However, we never came up with a good counter to the Soviet era SAM until we actually engaged them. I am sure that counter will exist for such an AA system, I am just not sure how expensive, operationally feasible, and effective such a counter measure would be. > [Why not use optic rather than radar tracking for a laser? -HJC] Or maybe a "Look down" LIDAR or RADAR system, stealth only works -vs- "Look Ahead" systems. A B2 and F117 shows up like a big bat -vs- look down. >From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com > Metalic Aerosol fogs and plain old Chaff work rather well. And if you >cannot detect it, you still can't shoot at it... How could you deploy chaff/fog in a aircraft traveling super or high-subsonic? If the Laser was firing at the Aft of an aircraft then that would be a possible defense. What about frontal shots? >From: "Herb Diehr" >there is a definite fall-off with distance which makes it >hard to use lasers as long-range weapons, and when you increase the >energy density beyond a certain level the energy goes into the air (it >turns it into a plasma), and filamentation ensues, leading to loss of >beam steering capability. I am not sure if the technical limitations of such a system can be overcome or not. Perhaps Lasers may become limited to Theater short-range ballistic, ground attack, and VTOL aircraft threats. >But TRW does seem to have a good system for combatting tactical weapons; >my approach would be to find it and overwhelm it! Perhaps by >high-altitude bombing, or by sending in lots of little rockets. Agreed. That was the Soviet Cold-war tactic for defeating US AA systems. If we could take out 20 airborne threats, they would send 25. Thanks all, - D. ============================== From: Darren Breland Subject: Strange Things > [See http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/ogrethulhu/index.html for details on >the playtest, but don't bother reading my versions and make sure to stock >up on LGEVs. grrrrrrrr.... see that kinda puts me off. SJG is casting the OT fig without rules and I have to pay $15 bucks so I can see unofficial rules? SJG could have included a "quick sheet" or something with the fig to explain a few "unofficial" rules just to get the ball rolling and pique interest in the new rule set. It's not the money, but... Are Ogre Mini's sales so low that SJG has to forego the production of needed figure sets (ie. Cruise Missile Crawler, Light Howitzer, Mk I / II / IV / Ninja / Dopplesodner Ogre's) to mold an entirely new set of figs? Was interest in Ogrethulhu greater than interest in the current Ogre Mini's? Personally, I would rather purchase all of the current figs for Ogre minis first. Ogrethulhu is kewl, but I would have preferred to see all of the standard unit figs cast prior to the release of this "novelty" set. I'm not bashing SJG, they have done a good job of getting out the figs this time, it's just that I don't understand why Ogrethulhu's (which I don't really need and there are no rules for) were cast before CMC, LHWZ, or MkIV's. The "need for figs" was the major problem I had with the 1993 run of Ogre Minis. You couldn't buy all the official figs so my interest in the gaming system was lost. Now that the figs are being cast our interest has been raised again. As we play more (and consequently buy more figs) the need for all the current units types has grown. It will be late 2002 before all standard unit types are available for PE and Combine, but we will be able to buy OT sets early 2002 . Why start a whole new mini line before the current accepted line has been completed? L8ta, -D. ===== [If you want to blame anybody for the delay in the release of the Ogrethulhu rulebook, blame me please. http://www.sjgames.com/newproducts/newrel.html?m=0&y=2 -HJC] ===== From: "Paul Chapman" Subject: Strange Things > From: Darren Breland > > I picked up a new SJ figure at the local hobby store yesterday. Without > giving away too much info about what it is, I have a few questions: > > 1: What exactly does a POD do? Since it only has a defense it must do > something special. They create Spawn :) > 2: What does the TOWER do? Ditto above. It doesn't do much more than provide a damage sink, which will make more sense when you see the regeneration rules. > 3: Does the EYE observe (pun intended) LLOS rules? Yep. > 4: What about Overruns with that thing? I know I wouldn't get that close > to it! It eats you. Literally. > 5: Any suggestions on how to paint "Slime Green"? Dip it into Angel Snot? > 6: Why do I have this uncontrollable urge to salivate profusely and a > desire for raw uncooked meat? You left the cap off the superglue too long :) > Oh, and before I go slithering off, I also got the new Ogre III-B, looks > like a Mk III on steroids. Kudos on a nice job Paul! Thanks, but that was all Richard. He's a genius with green stuff! Paul Chapman Miniatures Division Manager Ogre Line Editor Steve Jackson Games paul@sjgames.com You can't spell "progress" without an Ogre! ============================== From: Darren Breland Subject: Cruise Missile Problems > [The biggest problem with the current cruise missile rules in Ogre >Minis is that a LGEV takes the same range adjustment as a Mark VI Ogre. >-HJC] Yeah, doesn't make much sense that a fragile LGEV should be affected the same by blast as a hefty Ogre or SHVY. - D. ===== From: Sethkimmel@aol.com Subject: Cruise Missile Problems << [The biggest problem with the current cruise missile rules in Ogre Minis is that a LGEV takes the same range adjustment as a Mark VI Ogre. -HJC] >> I use the Shockwave rules (ie, the chart), using 2 inches equals one hex of distance... ===== [I wanted something that didn't require a chart and smoothed out the inch to inch odds ratios. -HJC] =============================== From: Sethkimmel@aol.com Subject: Engineers << (Finally! Something else for your engineers to do besides build revetments and remove hulks.) >> When I get off my lazy a**, I'll write rules for CE's laying and clearing mines.... ===== [I've got some simplified rules for the board game at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/gev/2001/gevapr16.txt The Minis rules already includes a system for minesweeping -HJC] ============================== From: svref@yahoo.com Subject: What happened to Russia? What happened to Russia following the PanEuropean capitulation to the Combine? I assume Moscow didn't get taken, as even the most leadfooted and demoralized Doppelsoldner would be able to get there ahead of any Combine forces landing in St Petersburg. So did they just watch Europe being balkanized from behind a defensive line? Surrounded by Combine satellites and Nihon, surely they'd be spending the 2090s tooling up their local industrial and military base to Great-Patriotic/Cold War levels. When the big boys fell down in 2100, wouldn't that create a power vacuum that Russia would be prepared to fill? At the very least, they'd pacify Siberia for nationalistic reasons... ===== [I always assumed they got taken over my the russian mob and their relations with the NAC greatly improved at that point. -HJC] ============================== From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com Subject: Another Militia post OK, I've set back and read over the various Militia arguments on this board and others. So after much procrastination I figured it was finally time for me to throw my two cents into the mix. One of the main complaints I've seen is that Militia moves to fast. Does anyone other than myself know how fast an actual modern day US Army combat unit is required to move on foot? Try 12 miles in 2 hours and 45 minutes (that includes the cooks, clerks, mechanics, and anyone else assigned to the unit). That's while moving over rough terrain, wearing a helmet, LBE (about 15-20lbs), weapon and a 40lb. ruck sack. That's not counting things like NVGs, SAWs, LMGs, AT weapons, etc., etc. When you drop this junk (which you do before entering combat) you can really move. For those of you that have never experienced the joy of a 8 to 10 mile speed march, then assault, all on two or three hours of sleep, you would be amazed at how fast you can move when the adrenaline starts pumping. The second major complaint I keep seeing has to do with their defensive abilities. READ STEVE JACKSON'S DESCRIPTION!!! These guys are not Jo and Billy Bob running around in the woods with their daddy's shotgun. They are trained military troops who just don't happen to have a battlesuit. They still have some form of basic ballistic/NBC protection, and more firepower than a modern day tank. For the guys complaining about targeting. I want you to get 20 people with modern BDUs on (BDUs are treated with a chemical that makes them harder to pick up on IR and thermal sensors), and spread them out over a 1500 meter area and tell me how many you can find. Finally, people this is a freaking game. You are going to give up some form of realism for playability. How many of you really think it would be possible for a nuclear war to last year after year? Come on people put this in perspective. You have to have some tradeoffs to keep the gameplay rolling along. I think Steve did a pretty good job with Battlefields version of Militia. They were pretty much designed as cheap cannon fodder, and that's a role they fill well. If you want a name that more closely fits their actual description as unarmored infantry, why not call them what they actually are...good old Light Infantry? ===== [Why not foot infantry? (Quick Watson, the Infantry are afoot!) Personally if I'm going to run into combat without sleep, I'd like to have a walkman with the soundtrack to Glory handy. -HJC] Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com Archives at http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2001, by Steve Jackson Games.