====== The Ogre Digest, December 8th (Last: December 7th) ======== ===== Decals! From: "Paul Chapman" ===== UltraMarines From: David Morse ===== Strange Things From: White Rat From: Darren Breland ===== Laser AA Systems today From: White Rat From: "Powers, Michael T1" From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com ===== Mark IV movement From: David Walend ===== Ogre Minis Scale From: Darren Breland ===== Under water tanks now, supercavitating subs coming [was ultramarines] From: David Walend ===== Missile Rack Madness From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com ============================== From: "Paul Chapman" Subject: Decals! Yep, the undead thread! I'm one step closer to releasing decals. The format, at this point, is a quarter page for about $5. Right now it looks like it will contain at least 100 symbols (split between the Combine hourglass and the Paneuro helm), 120 numbers, and 60 letters, in black, blue, and red. I originally thought of one style of sheet -- a mixed batch of Paneuro and Combine. Several people I've mentioned it to suggested spliting them up into two sheets. Of course, we could take it a step farther and create specialized sheets: Ogres, GEVs, tanks, Empire of Vermont, Vatican Guard, and so on. What would _you_ like to see? Is an Ogre sheet too specialized? Should the Last War groups wait untill we've got the Big Two out? More numbers? More letters? Weird symbols (mushroom clouds/kill markers/nose art)? Anyone want to weigh in? Paul Chapman Miniatures Division Manager Ogre Line Editor Steve Jackson Games paul@sjgames.com You can't spell "progress" without an Ogre! ============================== From: David Morse Subject: UltraMarines > [If Marines do not overrun underwater Ogres and they're not even > doubled against them that even at 3 VPs per squad they are less useful than > LGEVs at sniping on submerged Ogres simply because the LGEVs can get to the > Ogres quicker and start pounding away sooner. > > Otherwise you need to go back to Marines, Howitzers and Ogre Missiles > fire at half strength against normal defense submerged Ogres with everything > else being at one quarter strength or Marines just aren't all that useful. > > Missile launch in underwater overruns has always been in the GEV rules > and is one of the factors that shocked me about the change to one missile > per missile rack per fire phase as now the missile rack Ogres REALLY outgun > everything else in an underwater overrun. -HJC] Rather than have marines be a special purpose anti-snorkeling-ogre unit, I'd prefer to see them as somewhat balanced units against anything at (or around) the sea. To me, this means 3 vp and treat-water-as-forest. --Dave ===== [A single LGEV will always kill such a marine squad, taking an average of three turns and never losing. Unless you're deploying them in a circle to discourage overruns of Laser Cruisers, why take them? -HJC] ============================== From: White Rat Subject: Strange Things > The delays associated with the Ogrethulhu book are the reason for the lack > of specific rules, but to answer your more general question, "Why start a > whole new mini line before the current accepted line has been completed?": > diversification. I still wouldn't have gone with 'Ogrethulhu' for diversification. As Henry suggested, something relating to some other SJG release would've worked better. if you -were- going to introduce something new for OGRE...Why not the Chinese/Nihon forces that've been bandied about for the past decade? Ogrethulhu strikes me as somewhat of a dead-end concept. Non-OGRE players aren't going to buy it. Some OGRE players won't buy it due to it being too non-canon. It won't sucker people into a GURPS setting because they see a cool mini and want to paint it in the fashion that the Steampunk minis might. I just don't see this being a big moneymaker. Or much of a small one. Ratty ===== From: Darren Breland Subject: Strange Things >From: "Paul Chapman" > >Miniatures is an expensive business, and to keep the doors open, you've got >to attract as many customers as possible. That means providing support for >award-winning books (Steampunk), weird crossovers (Ogrethulhu), and popular >games (Frag). > >Rest assured that Ogre is the primary focus of our miniatures output. Next >year, we'll be putting out at least twice as many Ogre sets as any other >line -- all with new units. > >I hope this helps to put our divergences into perspective:) Yes, it does help. I don't pretend to know the miniatures manufacturing business but if had control of the mini's making machine I would attempt to satisfy my proven customer base before diversifying. Perhaps there will be an incredible demand for OT. I can understand (especially given SJG's history with the Cyberpunk fiasco) the desire to reach as broad a base of customers as possible. It's just that the group that I game with kit-bash MkIV's, Huscarls, MkVI's, etc. when they would be happy to pay for a SJG fig if it was available. We are anxiously awaiting the new figs. PLEASE complete all the units that are available in the minis book (Mk IV, Ninja, MkVI, CMC). We'll buy 'em this time.. I promise. =) I'll have my painting table cleared and my credit card paid down in anticipation. l8ta, -D. ============================== From: White Rat Subject: Laser AA Systems today > Are chemical lasers of such high power affected by fog/chaff? Are we > talking a chemical gas or some sort of silicate prismatic? Seems like an > awful lot of trouble to use such a counter. Additionally, its use > effectively announces your intentions which would negate any other > concealment technologies, such as "stealth". To the best of my awareness, the same ramped pulse system which prevents loss of power due to dust/fog/smoke would also burn through any type of chemical gas in millionths of a second. As for silicate prismatics, if they are small enough to be colloidal, they likewise won't do much to impede the laser. If they are too large to be colloidal, you'd have to throw many pounds of the stuff into the laser's path (specifically) to make it worthwhile. Not cost-effective or reliable. Ratty ===== From: "Powers, Michael T1" Subject: Laser AA Systems Today From: Darren Breland >I don't know how you could defeat a good THEL >system, but it would be a hard nut to crack. Send in a ground force to kill it. Hmm, where have we seen _that_ scenario before... -- Mike Powers ===== [Icepick? -HJC] ===== From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com Subject: Laser AA Systems Today << Are we talking a chemical gas or some sort of silicate prismatic? Seems like an awful lot of trouble to use such a counter. Additionally, its use effectively announces your intentions which would negate any other concealment technologies, such as "stealth". >> Depends on the cost. And it could be laid down and no attack comes. And it would be whatever was needed to get the effect. If I knew exactly what would do it, I would be a defence contractor instead of a wargamer. ;-) << hmmmm.... I don't know if a system of drones like you describe exists today or could exist in the near future. >> WW2 used artillery shells with smoke candles. I doubt putting such on a missile would be all that hard. Especially one launched with the INTENTION of being shot down as the means to release it's cargo... Ad Astra! Stan Leghorn ============================== From: David Walend Subject: Mark IV movement > [Either the Mark-IV closes to range five or it does not. > > If it does take it's one and only missile shot the Mark-V will close to >range two and blow those silly racks off. (A one-shot missile plus a >secondary is 2-1 on a rack, repeat six times.) -HJC] It always struck me as a little odd to have hovertrucks with M3/2 and Mark IVs with M4/0. What happens if you give the Mark IV M3/1 instead of M4? I think the Ogre becomes an even better sniper against armor, and a battle against a Mark V is more even. The Mark IV won't face the secondaries as soon. I haven't played with this rule. Would the Mark IV give up its table-tilting strike range of 9 in exchange for immunity from tanks? Or did I miscount the hexes? How long until we'd see the Rattler crawler to deal with these? Forrest ===== [Ah grasshopper, you must read: http://www.io.com/~hcobb/gev/scenario/foxhunt.htm -HJC] ============================== From: Darren Breland Subject: Ogre Minis Scale >I did some number crunching to bring the scale down to a 1::5000 and >1::1000 standard. > >The 1::5000 numbers seem playable, but the "map" becomes a whopping 6 ft X >12 ft, or scale 9 km X 18 km. On the standard table (ping pong; 5 ft X 9 >ft) everything can get into range after one turn (best guess-timate since >I've not played it out). I calculated the distance multiplier to be four >times (4x) the miniatures rules. > >Infantry marches across the board @ 16 inches and hit anything within 8 >inches. > >GEVs race at 16 inches and hit anything within 32 inches. hmm... a 4x GEV would be A:2/16", M:32"/24", combat radius of 48"... yikes! Yeah, 4x is pretty nuts. We just went 2x which made the game go a LOT faster on a 4"x8" table. I'm not sure what the ratio is exactly. We thought about 3x, but thought the GEV covered way too much ground to make this playable. 4x would be tough on anything but an entire room. >The 1::1000 numbers are even crazier as everything is in "effective range" I wanted to toy with an "Overrun" version of Ogre where the entire game was played at "point blank" range in compressed time. Where an entire game would only represent 4mins of real time. The board would be a 1.5 km square (4'x4'). Compress the turns down to 5sec. Use the Overrun combat rules. Recalculate the speeds of the vehicles, no GEV bounce, and everybody is in range no matter where you are. Double A for Ogre & INF. LLOS would be in effect. Oh and initiative rolls. Sounds real fast and real deadly. I'll prob just call it "Overrun"...now that's original. Anyone do this with success? >Oh, I've played at this scale using another set of game rules, GDW's >"Striker 1st Edition," and I do like this scale for tactical combat on a >ping pong table. Me too, but I haven't played that in a LONG time. I like their vehicle combat rules though. Especially the Grav tanks and Fusion guns.. nice! >If anyone is interested, I'll send the 1::5000 conversions I did. Sure, I'd be interested. l8ta, -D. ============================== From: David Walend Subject: Under water tanks now, supercavitating subs coming [was ultramarines] >[If Marines do not overrun underwater Ogres and they're not even >doubled against them that even at 3 VPs per squad they are less useful than >LGEVs at sniping on submerged Ogres simply because the LGEVs can get to the >Ogres quicker and start pounding away sooner. > > Otherwise you need to go back to Marines, Howitzers and Ogre Missiles >fire at half strength against normal defense submerged Ogres with everything >else being at one quarter strength or Marines just aren't all that useful. > > Missile launch in underwater overruns has always been in the GEV rules >and is one of the factors that shocked me about the change to one missile >per missile rack per fire phase as now the missile rack Ogres REALLY outgun >everything else in an underwater overrun. -HJC] Henry, From some simple play with the gurps vehicles rules, it's fairly easy to give a tank M1 underwater (on the bottom). Get limited life support instead of just the NBC kit, submersible lines, and a very specialized driver (underwater tank driving. Right up there with underwater basket weaving.) Sinking in to the mud is a matter of submerged ground pressure I haven't worked through yet, but I don't think it's that big a deal. The passenger compartment's air pocket should make manned tanks less likely to sink into the muck than an Ogre. The submersible lines increase the body volume, which is most of the expense. (Without them, the tank's top speed is pitiful.) But since a load of ammo for a light tank is $M3, or %15 of the price (given how long they last on the battlefield), it just doesn't seem like that much. BPC armor leads to a remarkable crush depth. Plus the smooth lines would make for cool miniatures. I'm going to hold off on suggesting changes to the underwater rules until I can grab a copy of the gurps vehicles expansion book due out in January. (Just $8.95 for a gurps book? I haven't seen that since the Ice Age.) It'll have rules for supercavitating submarines, which could open up a whole new front, perhaps an underwater game on the Ogre's scale. I'm tempted to try redesigning the marine suit to see what I can build it in to, but want to wait for the supercavitating rules first. Forrest ===== [From SJ's first designer's note article I always thought that a solid block of BPC would float and so disabled GEVs would bob lightly on the waves while OGREs (filled with all sorts of dense goodies) would run on top of the mud at the bottom of the river. -HJC] ============================== From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com Subject: Missile Rack Madness << I agree with the math. A V would take a IV. It should. But that's if I let you draw me into a slugging match >> Not if the IV can volley fire ALL it's missiles in one turn. that's 120 attack strength divided into 6 point chunks at a range of 9. Let's see what's left of your V after THAT! Now, under current rules, if the V can get into MB range, then the IV is oatmeal. Which is hard to prevent after you fire at range 5. Unless someone ELSE has slowed the V... Ad Astra! Stan Leghorn ============================== Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com Archives at http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2001, by Steve Jackson Games.