============ OGREverse list, Feb 23rd (Last: Feb 15th) ============= ===== Subscribe From: Keiyuri@aol.com ===== [sjgames-illuminator] Just Shipped From: webmaster@sjgames.com ===== Self-healing composites From: Michael Powers ===== Foxhunt, torpedoes From: Wrazor@aol.com ===== Newbie Q: Color Schemes for Minis? From: Jason Burke ===== Ninja variant From: David Morse ===== Tread Units & Size Class From: "William Spencer" ===== OGREList Submission : What's Missing in GEV Maps From: Joseph Shelby ===== OGRE Geek Code From: Michael Powers ===== Clarifications on Previous Comments, Recomments, "Golden Age" From: "Andrew Walters" ===== Gumbo in the Gulf From: "Henry J. Cobb" ------------------------------ From: Keiyuri@aol.com Subject: Subscribe Subscribe, subscribe, already! This is obviously where all the activity that's supposed to be on the message boards actually takes place... --Stephen Blount keiyuri@aol.com sblount@intiso.com ----- [I was going to run a pitch about how the OGRE message boards might be used for longer articles (such as my howto guide for inciting WW III ;-), but I took a closer look at them and noticed a decided lack of editorial control, such as personal insults. So instead, I'll run some ads to make up for the unrefered web hits. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: webmaster@sjgames.com Subject: [sjgames-illuminator] Just Shipped The following products left our warehouse last week, headed for your local game store: Combine Set 4 - GEV Company http://www.sjgames.com/minis/ogre/C4/ (for Ogre Miniatures) The agile GEVs are the fastest things on the battlefield of the future. The "Gremlin" Combine LGEV is available here for the first time! This set includes 16 miniatures: eight "Raptor" GEVs and eight "Gremlin" light GEVs, and adds 72 points to your Ogre army. Stock #10-2104, ISBN 1-55634-468-6. $19.95 Combine Set 5 - Missile Tank Platoons and Mobile Battery http://www.sjgames.com/minis/ogre/C5/ (for Ogre Miniatures) Pound the Ogre from a distance with artillery and missile-firing armor. This set includes 8 vehicles: two "Banshee" missile-tank platoons of three tanks each, and a battery of two "Bigfoot" mobile howitzers - a brand-new unit, styled very differently from its Paneuropean equivalent! Total value of these units is 60 points. Stock #10-2105, ISBN 1-55634-469-4. $19.95 -- Keith Johnson ------------------------------ From: Michael Powers Subject: Self-healing composites This is an interesting article... http://www.news.uiuc.edu/scitips/01/0214selfheal.html The idea is that the composite matrix includes little bubbles of unhardened resin; as cracks propogate through the matrix they open these bubbles, and the resin seeps out and fills up the cracks. I'm not sure how BPC works, but with enough technobabble this could be one reason Ogres are so damn tough... -- Michael Powers Graduate Student, GWU/JIAFS NASA Langley Research Center (757) 864 4457 -- m.t.powers@larc.nasa.gov ----- [Somehow I see bending one of these until it develops microfractures and it "heals" the fractures with the bend and then that forms a wedge to bend it some more... -HJC] ------------------------------ From: Wrazor@aol.com Subject: Foxhunt, torpedoes > Maybe they can't aim very well at GEVs and only do spillover effects? I would view this as much more reasonable/realistic >These ships are very tough and the torpedos are not at the cruise missile >level Today's torpedoes are not the same as 500 pound bombs either; the concussive effect is multiplied by the fact it is detonated underwater. I understand that BPC hulls are "tough" and things like dual hulls would help, but their should still be provisions for holing the ship below the waterline. Possibilities include disabling the ship for a set number of turns,loss of mobility regardless of hull poits remaining, or saying that if the hull is ruptured it will sink in a specified number of turns. Determination of hull breaches could be made by the roll of 1 or 2 D6. ----- [Thanks for the suggestions and see my new torpedo rules below. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: Jason Burke Subject: Newbie Q: Color Schemes for Minis? Greetings All, I'm new to this list and to Ogre as well. I've just picked up the deluxe box set (after reading the reviews at rpg.net), and I'm wondering if there is any set color scheme for the Combine units. Right now I'm leaning towards just doing a forest green color with a dark green wash, but I wanted to hear what everyone else has done before I make a final decision. Thanks for any input. Sincerely, Jason Burke St. Louis, MO ----- [OGRE Minis, 1st ed, page 63 suggests copying modern day NAFTA unit insignia, just don't forget the yellow, er red and white stripe. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: David Morse Subject: Ninja variant Here are some rules for simulating the Ogre Ninja's electronic warfare capabilities. Complete with faux-Jackson vignette and scenerios. Check it ouuut! http://www.bomberlan.net/~dm/ninja.html ------------------------------ From: "William Spencer" Subject: Tread Units & Size Class My two centicreds about Duncan McEwen's pursuit of proper tread units: First, I think it's fun. I always find it interesting when people go off on these, well, odd tangents, probing the corners of a game system or fictional universe to see how it works, where it breaks, etc. It helps spawn new ideas, new perspectives, and so on, which is all good as far as I'm concerned. Second, I think that the table he's come up with is completely irrelevent and unnecessary in Ogre's case. Ogre is a very abstract game system, as opposed to a very detailed game like GURPS. In Ogre, a GEV and a Light Tank have identical combat ratings (Attack 2, Range 2 hexes, Defense 2), despite wildly different equipment. The GEV is using several small autocannon and a light mortar, while the LT is using a tank cannon. The defense for the LT comes from its armor (and ECM, point-defense, etc.) while the GEV's armor comes more from its speed and agility. In a game such as GURPS, the specific effects (rate of fire, impact damage, armor thickness, dodging, jamming, etc.) matter, but in the Ogre system, these details are extraneous - only the effect on the game matters. An example is in Ogre Miniatures: the Doppelsoldner, which is described as even MORE massive than the Mark VI, has _fewer_ Tread Units because the extra load puts more strain on them. The Tread Units are an abstract measure of the treads' effectiveness, not an actual physical rating. So I don't think McEwen's concept really applies here. Which is not to say that it is not cool, and may not be applied elsewhere. ------------------------------ From: Joseph Shelby Subject: OGREList Submission : What's Missing in GEV Maps Maybe the miniatures rules cover this, I'm not sure (I don't have them, and really can't afford to get into the minis habit). One thing that's missing most in the GEV terrain are rules (and hex styles and therefore maps) covering the third dimension -- altitudes. It came to mind when looking at the Diluth map and considering what could be done to make a map of an assault on Washington, DC (one always thinks of fighting @ home, right? :) ). DC has a significant terrain issue: The Potomac River. Hell, its an issue for those of us who have to drive the damn thing right now... On the south side, it fits the style of a normal river hex or two. Crossing the 14th Street or Wilson bridges is easily over a mile. On the northwest side, its a bit different. Its really only the size of a stream, perhaps larger, but there's the added complication of its a stream through what is effectively a canyon. There's no way that tanks or gevs or much of anything except infantry can cross it without a bridge or some degree of engineering works. The drops are too steep, especially between the Memorial bridge and Cabin John, MD (about 5-7 miles). Treating it as a normal stream (stop before crossing) is too much of a simplification -- there's no way, 4 minutes or not, for a tank to cross. Now perhaps this can be a scenerio specific rule (similar to the "Disputed Crossing" rule where the wide river doesn't allow GEVs to travel on it), but perhaps this is saying its time in OGRE's development to add more terrain conditions... My memories of England and Scotland, and pictures throughout Germany and Austria, show this level of altitude differences to be the common case along a sizeable amount of Europe as well (try mapping Sicily using GEV terrain and it becomes much easier to manage than it historically was in '42/'43 when Patton had to cross those mountains to beat Monty to Messina...or try Normandy without the cliffs from hell the infantry had to climb). So, how 'bout we encourage Steve (by perhaps discussing alternatives and optional rules amongst ourselves) to come up with a new suppliment or rules that handle elevated terrain a bit more realistically...or maybe he's already on that (he did hint at some more maps in his answer to the battlefields review). just a thought. i'll think more on it for the next posting... Joe -- Joseph Shelby mailto:acroyear@io.com http://www.celticdistrict.com/ "The people of England will permit anything...except cruelty to horses and a rise in the price of beer." -- Return of the Musketteers (1989) ----- [Ah comeon, you can surely afford at least the OGRE Minis book at a lousy $14.95! It does have cliffs (lesser slopes being ignored) and I'm personally in favor of two cliffs facing each other across a creek. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: Michael Powers Subject: OGRE Geek Code Is there one of these? To be tru3ly k3wL, we should probably cobble one together. STARTED PLAYING: S Metagaming: +++ 2nd Edition: ++ 1st Ogre/GEV combined edition: + OGRE Miniatures: - Ogre/GEV second edition: -- Deluxe Ogre or later: --- PREFERRED GAME: indicate level of preference for rule sets with '+++' to '---' () = did not play Ogre 1st ed: O1 Ogre 2nd ed: O2 GEV: G Shockwave: S Ogre Miniatures: OM PRODUCTS OWNED: PO (this includes miniatures sets; individually-purchased miniatures don't count here.) 0-1: -- 2-3: - 4-5: + 6-8: ++ 9+: +++ STATUS OF OGRE MINIATURES: MK3, MK5 (this is based on the average completion status of your miniatures.) Still in box: --- Out of box, partially glued together: -- Glued together, possibly primered: - Base-coated, no detailing: + Fully detailed, 'tabletop quality': ++ Competition-quality or conversion: +++ STATUS OF OTHER MINIATURES: CM (average status of ALL non-Ogre minis) Still in box: --- Out of box, partially glued together: -- Glued together, possibly primered: - Base-coated, no detailing: + Fully detailed, 'tabletop quality': ++ Competition-quality or conversion: +++ We clearly need more entries in this one...but my current code would be S+ O1--- O2++ G+++ S() OM+++ PO++ MK3+ MK5++ CM+ (PS to see pictures of this '++' MK5, http://zipponiner.tripod.com) Michael Powers Graduate Student, GWU/JIAFS NASA Langley Research Center (757) 864 4457 -- m.t.powers@larc.nasa.gov ----- [Won't the border patrol seize that as looking like unexportable cryptography? -HJC] ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: Clarifications on Previous Comments, Recomments, "Golden Age" Yes, there were combat aircraft articles in the Space Gamer and the old Ogre Book, and I hope they made it into the new Ogre Book. I didn't care for them; they're non-canonical since the premise assumes lasers made aircraft obsolete. Greg Costikyan (sp?) is one of the greats, but when aircraft get involved in armor battles they kind of cease to be armor battles. The Ogre background, as described in GURPS Ogre, Ogre Minis, etc, says that there are still ships sailing, and thus submarine and anti-sumarine warfare. I'd love to see good naval rules, but am just not satisfied yet. I know its not a scientifically designed simulation, but it is "hard science fiction" as opposed to "space fantasy", and everything feels better when things are, well, believable isn't the right word. But when things are too shaky my suspension of disbelief gives way, and then its less fun. I look at the Warhammer 40K tables at conventions and think, "no, that would not happen," and that changes the whole feel for me. That's why I play Ogre, no offense to those who like other games. I'd really love to see a strategic game and tactical and strategic naval games, but I want the same flavor as Ogre, and I haven't seen it yet. Ogres would be easy to detect underwater, but their armor is really thick. They couldn't make it from NA to UK underwater, though. Did you realize that in places the mud on the ocean floor is a half mile thick? They could go along the coastlines, rocky places, and over the ice pack. Ogres travel 4600 miles/week, since they don't take potty breaks. As far as the Golden Days of Ogre, I think these are those *now*! There is more Ogre material, products, maps, units, artwork, support, and possibly players today than twenty years ago. I ran a tournament last Friday night at DunDraCon and we were turning away players. Those who couldn't play stayed to watch, email addresses were exchanged, and there's talk of a bay area *league*. Perhaps '80-'81 was the Silver Age of Ogre, but the 25th Anniversary (next year) will be the Golden Age. Steve, has Keith told you my idea for an Ogre LARP? Andrew ------------------------------ From: "Henry J. Cobb" Subject: Gumbo in the Gulf [Try, try again!] A new Combine carrier deploys from the gulf of mexico, right into a Paneuropean ambush. The Paneuropean player gets three Subs: one Attack Sub 4 Torpedo tubes(Range 4) 2 AP(1/1) 30 structure points(Move 3 hexes, lose one hex per ten points) one Missile Sub 2 Torpedo tubes(Range 4) 2 Missile Racks and 10 OGRE Missiles(6/5) 2 AP(1/1) 30 structure points(Move 3 hexes, lose one hex per ten points) one Commando Sub 2 Torpedo tubes(Range 4) 4 AP(1/1) 6 squads of Marine Infantry 30 structure points(Move 3 hexes, lose one hex per ten points) Torpedoes can only be fired once per turn per tube, but may be fired either submerged or surfaced at surface or submerged targets for full strength. Torpedoes must trace a path through the water of no more than their range from the firing point to the target but may go around corners. Fired against an OGRE, a torpedo will always hit and do one die of tread units damage. When fired against a ship or sub roll one die and inflict twice that number of structure points. When fired against boats roll one die for the attack strength then resolve an attack (with spillover) with that attack strength. Torpedoes cannot directly track GEVs or infantry and so can only achieve spillover effects against hover or infantry mobility targets, but resolve the attack against each squad independently. (Only roll one die to resolve the strength of the attack, no matter how many spillover targets are in the hex.) Resolve each torpedo separately from any other attack. Submarine missile racks work exactly the same as the ones on the Mark IV, except that the human crews are not fast enough to double the missile attack strength in overruns. Note that missiles may only be launched while the missile sub is surfaced. Sub AP guns can only target infantry and defense zero targets and can only be used in overruns while the sub is submerged. Also, they are not doubled in overruns. The Commando sub carries infantry internally and is the only sub with a significant ability to carry and deploy infantry while submerged. One squad of infantry may ride on top of each sub, as long as it remains surfaced. The Combine player has four ships: one Carrier 2 VLMA(3/4) 2 UVRG(1/2) 2 vehicle ramps 60 structure points(Move 3 hexes, lose one hex per twenty points. Two destroyers, each has: 2 Naval Howitzers(3/7) 1 UVRG(1/2) 30 structure points(Move 3 hexes, lose one hex per ten points) And One Laser Cruiser: 1 laser(2/30) 1 VLMA(3/4) 1 UVRG(1/2) 36 structure points(Move 3 hexes, lose one hex per twelve points) In addition the combine has 6 LGEVs, 2 Hovertrucks(D1), 4 GEV-PCs, 4 Assault GEVs, 12 squads of Marines, 3 squads of Marine Engineers, 3 heavy weapon squads (non-Marine, find something to stand on) and two Landing Craft. Three of the LGEVs are deployed on the map, the rest of these units are onboard the carrier at the start of the game. VLMA: Vertical Launch Missile Array, a cluster of tubes that Hypersmart missiles launch out of. This weapon has the same effect as a missile tank, but naval Hypersmart missiles can engage submerged targets at half strength. UVRG: Ultra Velocity Rail Gun, the final line of defense for navy ships. It fires plastic slivers at 30 klicks a second that undergo contact fusion if they hit something solid, otherwise they quickly burn up in the air. This weapon intercepts cruise missiles or drones on a 11+, is limited to LLOS and has no effect on submerged targets. The UVRG is a very rapid fire weapon. A UVRG may roll to intercept a cruise missile or drone once per hex that the missile travels within the range of the UVRG. Also the UVRG has a theoretical ability to intercept ballistic missiles and may shoot down each OGRE missile targeted within its range on a roll of 12 on two dice. (Good luck.) If the UVRG was not used to attempt to intercept missiles on the previous enemy turn it may engage surface targets with its limited attack strength. Note that UVRGs impose a gigantic drain on a ship's batteries so even the biggest can only carry a few of these. The Naval Howitizer is the same weapon as the land based light howitizer and fires at half attack strength against submerged targets. The stats for the Landing Craft are: Atk: 1/2, D3, M3 Landing Craft are boats that move over water at three hexes a turn, ram like heavy tanks, can carry up to three size points of units inside (i.e., up to NINE squads of infantry) and one squad on top. Landing Craft may travel along streams or through swamps at one hex per turn, but get stuck on a roll of 1 or 2 in swamp or just a 1 in streams. (Requiring Marine Engineers to free them, as per the rules in OGRE Minis.) The stats for the Assault GEV are: Atk: 1/2, D2, M3/2 In addition it has two weapon bays and may launch one of its heavy weapons per turn. Each bay can carry either a single shot hypersmart missile pack(3/4, half effect against submerged targets) or a single torpedo with range two (otherwise the same effect as the bigger sub launched torpedoes). Manned ships take damage as buildings, but every time they are damaged to one third of total damage, roll a 1-1 attack on each "system" on board. For example, if the carrier was undamaged then got hit by two OGRE missiles and took 24 points of damage (twice the effective attack strength, as usual) then it's speed would drop to 2 hexes per turn and roll against each weapon and vehicle ramp. On a 5 or 6 that system is destroyed and on a 3 or a 4 it is disabled and unusable for a turn. At forty points of damage, speed would drop to one hex and roll again for the surviving systems. Vehicles, but not infantry, on board the carrier roll at the same time as the builtin features and the carrier takes an additional point of damage for each GEV or boat that is destroyed inside. Ships and subs loose speed as their hulls are damaged, in a similar manner to OGRE tread units. Subs, but not surface ships or boats, gain the "road" movement bonus if they start their turn surfaced and remain surfaced for their entire turn. Otherwise subs may surface or submerge once during their movement phase at no further movement cost. Marine infantry can also surface or submerge once during their movement phase without cost. (Rougher sea states would impose limits on water surface movement by Boats, GEVs, ships and surfaced subs and infantry.) Up to three squads of infantry can deploy on top of the carrier, just like a great big tank. (The other Combine ships can hold two squads each). Each of the carrier's active vehicle ramps can load or unload a boat or a hovercraft at the end of the carrier player's first movement phase, and may load or unload a hovercraft at the end of their second movement phase. The Landing Craft block the landing ramps while parked on them and may not move further inside the carrier than the ramps, so the carrier must offload the Landing Craft to clear the ramps for hovercraft operations. (A boat is automatically destroyed if the ramp it is parked on is destroyed and is effectively disabled if parked on a disabled ramp.) In order to phase infantry operations in coordination with vehicle operations, infantry may depart from their transports at any point during either friendly movement phase (including at the start of an overrun for infantry riding on top of their transports), but may not move further on their own that turn, except that they may immediately surface or submerge if marines (this might cause an overrun). At the end of their first movement phase, after ramp operations, infantry may board transports they are stacked with, even if they unloaded from the same or other transports during that movement phase. This is the only time during the turn that infantry can board transports. Combat between surface and submerged units in the same hex is conducted as if they were at one hex range and is not an overrun, but surface units suffer spillover effects from attacks against submerged targets in their hex fired by units in other hexes. The Scenario: Place the carrier somewhere in the middle of a vast ocean. Then the Combine player places the two destroyers, the cruiser and the three patrolling LGEVs anywhere within three hexes of the carrier. All other Combine units are inside the carrier. The Paneurope player places each sub submerged ten or more hexes from the nearest Combine unit and moves first. (The subs do not have to start anywhere near each other.) Each sub has it's identity hidden while submerged and is only revealed as to its type when it surfaces or uses some capability that reveals its type. (The Paneurope has complete knowledge of the Combine order of battle due to a spy in the Big Easy.) Due to surprise, none of the Combine infantry are ready. Roll a single die to ready 1-6 squads at the start of each of the Combine player's turns (Combine player's choice from his available types). The Assault GEVs, Heavy Weapon squads and Engineers start the scenario without their heavy weapons loaded but can fully load or reload their weapons by spending a full turn (active) inside the carrier. The other ships aren't carrying the right missiles or equipment to reload these systems. (A squad could be readied and armed on the first turn and then deployed to the top of the ship or depart on a GEV-PC on the second.) The Paneurope player wins by sinking the carrier and loosing no more subs than the Combine player loses escorts. The Combine player wins if the carrier survives. Any other result is a draw. The length of the scenario is twelve turns. Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com Archives at http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2001, by Steve Jackson Games.