============ The Ogre Digest, Mar 16th (Last: Mar 14th) ============= ===== alphabet soup From: Terry Hewitt ===== Getting Ashore, Re: Sea Power and Silliness From: cbarnett@BIX.com ===== Hydrofoils From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com ===== Battlesuit From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com ===== Bottled formula From: Stephan Beal From: Servitor@aol.com ===== Raptor-WW: GEV Wild Weasel From: Stephan Beal ===== Rocket Torpedo. From: largecardriver5@webtv.net (e.w.markle) ============================== From: Terry Hewitt Subject: alphabet soup Henry: I've been reading GURPS Ogre but some of the armarment and systems are an alphabet soup to a non-military person like me. For example, APFSDSDU... I'm pretty sure APFS is armor piercing, fin stabelzed and that DU is depleted Uranium, but what is DS? While I'm on this topic, how about SATNUC (I'm guessing NUC stands for nuclear), PESA and AESA? Thanks. Terry Hewitt ===== [I can see why you're unfamiliar with DS as an abbreviation for Discarding Sabot, as this device was only useful when projectiles were propelled by expanding gasses and so was dropped when the switch was made to gauss cannon. Page 108: "SATNUC stands for SATuration NUclear Cluster." -HJC] ============================== From: cbarnett@BIX.com Subject: Getting Ashore, Re: Sea Power and Silliness On LSEV capability, Henry Cobb said: > [Yeah, I was way off on the carrying capacity. > So let's remove the armored top from my version (anybody got a can >opener?) and leave the cargo exposed on top and give it the capacity of a >small revetment (without the protection for the cargo). > The increase in speed and lift over the modern LCAC is explained by >the nuclear propulsion. You're talking about this?: >The stats for the Landing Craft are: >Atk: 1/2, D3, M3 >Landing Craft are boats that move over water at three hexes a turn, ram >like heavy tanks, can carry up to three size points of units inside (i.e., >up to NINE squads of infantry) and one squad on top. Landing Craft may >travel along streams or through swamps at one hex per turn, but get stuck >on a roll of 1 or 2 in swamp or just a 1 in streams. (Requiring Marine >engineers to free them, as per the rules in OGRE Minis.) I like this as a basis for an improved LSEV. So I propose: LSEV 2.0 Atk: 1/2, D3, M3/3 Capacity: one size 3 unit or 3 squads This has the same speed as the old LSEV, but split per other hovers. I could be argued into just plain M6. Hmmm. If attacked, the carried unit(s) are riding and so are attacked with the same die roll but at odds appropriate to their defense value. Resolve the attack on the LSEV first. If it is destroyed, the crashing wreck destroys the riders. Embarked units attack normally as troops in a GEV-PC do. Per BPC Subs 19.01: To load or unload they must stay in one place for a full turn. The unloaded units can move and attack after this, or the loaded LSEVs may move off. I don't know how this should be affected by cruise shockwaves. It's not a bit of fluff like the canonical GEVs are. One hex extra grace? Suggestions welcome. > As for the catamaran, if it can't go on land why not use a standard >hull shape and have more room for the nuclear reactor and missile ammo >inside? -HJC] I oversimplified. The skirtless exception I mentioned can be seen at http://www.harleyboats.com/performance/performance.html It's not wholly clear to me that the cushion part of this SES's lift is powered. It might be a catamaran sitting on two tunnel hulls! A classic SES's lift is entirely powered. The only difference from a regular hover is that the side 'skirts' are rigid (thin), surface piercing walls. This better contains the cushion, leading to better efficiency. I think it also improves seakeeping, important to a ship. I wish I could find a picture on the net of this configuration. Why not use a regular hull? Speed. None of the high-speed ship hulls that have been experimented with (SWATH, Seaknife, 'foils, SES, WIG) have the volume efficiency of a monohull, it's true. But SES is no worse than a big GEV - the volume of the cushion is unusable anyway. While fusion power can overcome many things, water drag on a displacement hull is not one of them. Past a certain point, the rise is exponential. Thus all the fuss about minimizing wetted area or just plain not touching the surface at all. The trick is to go fast while retaining the ability to ride out rough seas, perhaps at reduced speed. I haven't thought out how I'd change the SES unit from BPC Subs, but that's enough for today. Charles Barnett ===== [No, I really mean the M2/2. When the sub article was written, GEV wasn't out yet and so hovercraft moved the same speed on both land and water. With a M2/2, the LSEV gets a 50 percent movement bonus in water, becoming slightly faster than the modern LCAC on water (with three times the load) without being too much faster than tanks in clear terrain. There is a way to get a short "conventional" hull that moves many times faster than it's bow wave multiple would allow by hydroplaning. Cue up the Miami Vice music, or just page down to the next article. -HJC] ============================== From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com Subject: Hydrofoils > My stats about the patrol missile boat would simply factor the guns >into the defense strength ans treat it like a floating missile tank. > Atk 3/4, M3/2, D2. (Note that this is slower than any hovercraft on >the water.) -HJC] OK, I like the speed of yours a little better than mine, now that I've thought about it. What would it cost? I've been playing around with an Idea for a naval scenario using a lot of GEV units and possibly the Hydrofoil and my version of the SEV. I just need to figure out what type of map to use and some reason to have them shooting at each other. ===== [The value of such a unit would vary widely depending on how wet the map is. Assuming that it could be used in sea states that the cub couldn't, then a price tag of a armor unit and a half would not be unreasonable. (Also it'd have naval hypersmart missiles which the "landlocked" Chicago armed forces wouldn't feel the need for. ;-) The Miami Vice map I'd suggest is to take Battlefields maps S3 and G2 with S3 north of G2. Now trace the coastline from S3-0115 to S3-1120 and follow the west bank of the stream to G2-1205 then follow the coast along to G2-0908 then to G2-2315, everything west or south of this line, including the bridges at S3-0716 and G2-1610 is blue water. (Call the water around S3-1813 Lake Ogrecrombie.) Run an invasion from the south (launched from some unspecified country 50 miles away after the collapse of El Gringo). -HJC] ============================== From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com Subject: Battlesuit >>Today, it is done with guile suits and VERY SLOW MOVEMENT. >>In the Ogreverse speed is life. This concept even filters down to >>Battlesuit. How about some type of modified Ranger battlesuit, an electronic "ghillie suit." I figure it would have to have an ECM of 7+ to be effective. Henry's comments: >>Heavy Weapons are already in the game. Yeah, but the notes state that heavy weapons are the Ogre equivalent of the modern day M-60. I'm thinking more along the lines of a M-249 SAW for the Light Support Weapon (LSW). It only ways about 18 pounds compared to 23, and fires a smaller caliber round (5.56mm verses 7.62mm). Also I'd like weapon system that could be handled by someone other than a man in a battlesuit. ===== [The lighter "big guns" are implied by the Assault/Command attack strengths vs the Standard/Ranger attack strengths. Snipers are not that well armored against attacks, they're just harder to spot. The scenario I have in mind is that a platoon has just lost their 2nd Lt. and the entire platoon is in shock while they try to figure out who they're going to prank from now on while the two Ranger sniper team follows a preplotted course off the map and are only revealed if they deviate from their plot or are spotted by some sort of scanning roll. -HJC] ============================== From: Stephan Beal Subject: Bottled formula > http://hometown.aol.com/servitor/Ogreindex/ogrindex.htm=20 Very cool :). The pic on the front page is the best image I've ever=20 seen of an Ogre, I think. > From: Servitor@aol.com > BTW, now that the SHVY is D5, any plans on your part to raise the D > entry field on your site's calculator to "5" from it's current top > value of "4"? > [First, I'd need to update the system to use my latest formula, > which nobody has commented on. -HJC] Because none of us would presume to be able to improve on it, I think=20 ;). The fact that you have retro-actively created a formula which=20 "fits" so well in so many cases is awe-inspiring. You've got way too=20 much time on your hands ;). ----- Stephan Beal ===== From: Servitor@aol.com Subject: Bottled formula > I'd need to update the system to use my latest formula, which > nobody has commented on. Shouldn't have put up the calculator in the first place. Now we are all spoiled couch monkeys too lazy to actually pick up a pen and hand calculator to do the job... best, John Hurtt (Servitor@aol.com) ===== [So people simply accept what they're offered without question? I guess I should've majored in Broadcasting rather than Math. -HJC] ============================== From: Stephan Beal Subject: Raptor-WW: GEV Wild Weasel > From: "Andrew Walters" > The development of the Ninja purchased a tremendous amount of ... > I'm eager to see if this is fun or dumb. Should the cost be two > armor units? Should it only protect GEVs in the same hex? We should > adjust its cost and effect until there's lots of argument, that's how > you know you have the balance right. Groovy idea. The I would definately suggest not extending the range to adjacent hexes unless the cost of the unit is seriously increased. I know you're talking an average of 3 units covered, but there's a max there of... 34 other units covered (target hex, with 4 other GEVs, plus 6 adjacent hexes, packed with 5 each). As SJ says in his playtest notes regarding Ogre, "playtest the dumb strategies." And I would certainly, given a unit like yours, pack as many GEVs together and ram them right through to the front line as quickly as possible. They'd get shredded if they stayed around, but they'd make a hell of an impact in that short time. True, it's probably a dumb strategy, but we can learn from SJ's lesson by testing the dumb strategies, too. I like the idea, though. I don't see the reasoning in restricting it to GEVs, though. They are already, in the opinions of most players, the best value for the point cost. Why make only THEM better? I could easily envision something like a modified SuperHeavy with a large jammer array (and cut it's guns down to a 2/2 or 3/2 battery or something), affecting all other units in that hex. As a side-effect, perhaps it's _own_ DEF would still net at D5 - it'd lose armor points, but gain back the DEF from it's own jammer (perhaps apply a similar logic to your Raptor?). Then it's only really useful when grouped with others, or when taking on greatly inferior units like Lt Tanks and GEVs. Or go a step further: there is the Goliath Ogre, which is a warhead on wheels (er...treads), basically. Why not make a similar support unit with a jammer. Now that one I could possibly see extending the range to adjacent hexes on. Mount some PD lasers on it, etc., and it'd be a mobile shield, with a stack of infantry riding the back and a couple of SHVYs trailing along. I would think that most ECM equipment has to have important bits of it stuck outside the unit it's in, which would suggest that the antenae and such could be stripped off pretty easily with spillover fire and such. Dunno. Thoughts on that? I can't see ECM being over-effective if it's all crammed inside 2 meters of BPC, so it stands to reason that it would be somewhat exposed, maybe as a separately-targettable D2 target (there are lots of possibilities there, though). And maybe the jammer has a chance of disabling any cruise missiles which pass through it's hex... There are lots of possibilities there. I generally go with the more traditional approach of using the standard units, perhaps with very minor unofficial rules, but I like the idea of extending the visibility of ECM defenses. Yes, they are inherently in all OGREVerse units, but they have been taken for granted for a long time. One side suddenly uncovering some new ECM tech (even if it means only making it smaller, so you can pack more on the same units) could make for a campaign game, I think. > You have to admit, though, it sure would be easy to make the > miniature. I imagine a Coke can with some toothpics stuck in it, and aluminum-foil antenae stuck onto those. :) Neat idea. I'll definately have to try that out. > I don't see how you could provide blanket +1 defense for a hex > without a lot of point defense. -HJC] Excellent point. "This is Blue One. We have just inadvertently shredded Blue Four. Repeat. Blue Four is out of commission. And luck. And everything else, for that matter. Turn that damned thing OFF, private!" ----- Stephan Beal ============================== From: largecardriver5@webtv.net (e.w.markle) Subject: Rocket Torpedo. The april edition of Popular Mechanics has a small article about the Rocket Torpedo. With a picture of the rear of the device. Taken from the 5 o'clock position. BTW the Chinese are trying to buy them from Russia. OK Henry, nows the time for that Sino - Nihon scenario. Remember to add Godzilla. Ed ===== [Yeah, they come to kill Godzilla, but he ain't gonna die!] Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com Archives at http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2001, by Steve Jackson Games.