============ The Ogre Digest, Mar 18th (Last: Mar 16th) ============= ===== LSEV 2.1, Re: Getting Ashore From: Charles Barnett ===== Hydrofoils From: Charles Barnett ===== alphabet soup From: Charles Barnett From: "Andrew Walters" From: "William Spencer" ===== Ogreverse Wild Weasels From: "Andrew Walters" ===== New Ogre Page From: Servitor@aol.com ===== Battlesuit From: patrick.odonnell@materna.de ============================== From: Charles Barnett Subject: LSEV 2.1, Re: Getting Ashore Henry Cobb said: > [No, I really mean the M2/2. When the sub article was written, GEV >wasn't out yet and so hovercraft moved the same speed on both land and >water. With a M2/2, the LSEV gets a 50 percent movement bonus in water, >becoming slightly faster than the modern LCAC on water (with three times >the load) without being too much faster than tanks in clear terrain. An LCAC or Channel ferry is remarkably oblivious to terrain due the very tall skirts (dictated by the sheer size of the thing), but okay. While the energy bank of an LSEV could be wired up like a GEV's to allow 'afterburner' operation, I don't think the navy would choose to design that way. And would be less forgiving of field mods than the army. If I remember right, the semi-canonical and short-lived HoverOgre was M4. I've rethought the infantry capacity and ability of any embarked unit to fight while mounted. The LSEV should be able to carry more troops than a GEV-PC. The sides of an LCAC are taller than the half-track type, shoulder-high sides of a GEV-PC. Only indirect fire might be possble. Miniatures or GURPS rules could take this into account, but the abstract OGRE rules encourage me to keep it simple. Militia wouldn't be strapped into seats, as in a GEV-PC. The LSEV is slow enough and it's mass gives it better ride. So jam 'em in, Saving Private Ryan style. As for ramming in an overrun, realisticaly, it wouldn't. It's too expensive. While not as fast as a GEV-PC, it's much heavier. Treat as a PC for an attack of 4? Forbid? Let's try it again: LSEV 2.1 Atk: 1/2, D3, M2/2 Capacity: one size 3 unit or 5 squads INF or 2 platoons MIL If attacked, the carried unit(s) are riding and so are attacked with the same die roll but at odds appropriate to their defense value. Resolve the attack on the LSEV first. If it is destroyed, the crashing wreck destroys the riders. Only embarked missle units may attack. May not ram. Per BPC Subs 19.01: To load or unload they must stay in one place for a full turn. The unloaded units can move and attack after this, or the loaded LSEVs may move off. If attacked by cruise missle, treat as a GEV, one hex farther away than it actually its. Cost: mmm, yeah. Applying an armor unit formula across these two domains doesn't make sense. If you just had to have an excuse to keep you off the streets, design using GURPS Vehicles and normalize using unit prices from GURPS Ogre. In a landing scenario, saving or killing these might simply *be* the victory condition. ===== [It doesn't look any more dense than a plain old GEV so why should it defend better against cruise missiles or even lesser explosions? -HJC] ============================== From: Charles Barnett Subject: Hydrofoils Concerning ships and drag, Henry Cobb said: > There is a way to get a short "conventional" hull that moves many >times faster than it's bow wave multiple would allow by hydroplaning. Sure. Seaknife is such an idea. Dominique Sumner is right to think about 'foils in the OGREverse, but I'm not crazy about 'foils for littoral ops. They've got shallow draft, when foil borne, but they can get into waters they don't dare stop in. And Bad Things happen if they hit a shoal. If my memory isn't playing tricks on me, a PHM ripped it's struts *off* in the Med some years ago. While a PHM-size ship could mix it up with GEVs close to shore, I don't think a resposible skipper would. Boeing wanted to build ships a notch larger than the PHM. That would be roughly corvette-size, reasonable for farther out. I think the main virtue of 'foils is speed plus 'ground clearance' to deal with heavy seas. A coastal patrol boat probably should be a GEV or a hydroplane. > My stats about the patrol missile boat would simply factor the guns >into the defense strength ans treat it like a floating missile tank. > Atk 3/4, M3/2, D2. (Note that this is slower than any hovercraft on >the water.) -HJC] A GEV version of this wouldn't be as blunt as the LSEV and so might be 4/3 on water. Eureka! I've reinvented the Chi Cub. Hiyo Silver, away! Sorry. Seriously, I think this is an good idea. We know SJ doesn't want many of these critters about. And when The Lone GEV was written, we didn't know a hypersmart was 3k pounds. A GEV or GEV-PC chassis at 97-112 tons couldn't haul many around. For a realistic loadout, the Cub would need icky record keeping. A missle tank is > 200 tons. Ah, but for a patrol boat, it makes sense. It's bigger and more expensive, to haul something like a MSL's 36 hypersmarts, so there aren't many around. Though it's still cheap, as naval units go. Like an LSEV, you wouldn't lightly take it into a fight ashore. > [The value of such a unit would vary widely depending on how wet the >map is. Assuming that it could be used in sea states that the cub >couldn't, then a price tag of a armor unit and a half would not be >unreasonable. (Also it'd have naval hypersmart missiles which the >"landlocked" Chicago armed forces wouldn't feel the need for. ;-) As with the LSEV, the naval unit will be more expensive. Gotta rustproof the BPC, dontcha know. :) So, how about: Coastal Patrol GEV (PSEVM) (Cub Class) Atk 3/4, D2, M3/2 As with an LSEV, treat as one hex more distant from a cruise explosion than it actually is. Ramming? Erk. Cost? Dunno. > 2 armor. ===== [Let's build a Cub, shall we? Under GURPS Ogre, take the GEV-PC and scrape 15 tons of infantry off the back ("Ouch!"), that'd carry a third the launch rails of the missile tank and half it's missile load. Hmmm... won't do. On the other hand, a Rattler plus launch tube is six tons and a GEV-PC plus two loaded Rattler tubes is two megabucks less than a plain old GEV. (Inspired by the anonymous drawing on page 95 of the new OGRE book.) Sea Snake (GEV-OM) Attack: 1 Range: 4" Defense: 2 Two one shot missiles Attack: 6 Range: 10" Move: 6"/4" Movement Mode: GEV Size: 3 Points: ? The formula says: 1 * (4 + 6 * 1.2) + 1.1 * 6 * 0.333 * (10 + 6 * 1.2) + 1.1 * 6 * 0.333 * (10 + 6 * 1.2) + 2 * 2 * ((6 * 0.333 + 4) + 4 * 1.2) In addition, this unit gets a 7.5 percent cost overrun because it's forward observer assisted range is 15 inches with the big missiles. So the total cost is: = 11.2 + 37.84 + 37.84 + 43.19 = 130.07 * 1.075 = 139.8 / 12 = 11.7 VPs or almost two armor units. Oblivously, I overlooked the pricetag for three tons of advanced sensors to spot targets for those missiles. -HJC] ============================== From: Charles Barnett Subject: alphabet soup For Terry Hewitt: >While I'm on this topic, how about SATNUC (I'm guessing NUC stands for >nuclear), PESA and AESA? ESA = electronic sensor array P = passive A = active GURPS Ogre describes many things in Ultra-Tech, UT2 and Vehicles terms. SATNUC is as Henry says, plus each of the submunitions are terminally guided and they're *shaped* nukes. Zoiks. ===== From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: alphabet soup You knew FS but forgot DS? I alway remember DS and go crazy looking for FS. But not anymore. PESA = Passive Electromagnetic Sensor Array AESA = Active ditto ditto ditto I'm doing this from memoy, my books are at home, but I think "array" includes IR, visual telescopic, low-light, and millimeter radar. ===== From: "William Spencer" Subject: alphabet soup APFSDSDU - Armor-Piercing Fin-Stabilized Discarding Sabot Depleted Uranium. That is, very high-velocity, high-impact AP rounds. Henry said: [I can see why you're unfamiliar with DS as an abbreviation for Discarding Sabot, as this device was only useful when projectiles were propelled by expanding gasses and so was dropped when the switch was made to gauss cannon.] I don't know about that - I could see a railgun which uses a metallic sabot which then drops off once the round has attained proper velocity. Fins then spring out, high-tech plastics reform to a more aerodynamic form, etc. SATNUC - What he said. SATuration NUclear Cluster. The round separates in mid-air, spraying several little guided nuke rounds down at the target, creating a pleasant burst effect. PESA - Passive Electromagnetic Sensor Array. Passive radar, thermograph, low-light cameras, etc. AESA - Active Electromagnetic Sensor Array. High-resolution radar or lidar (that's a laser-based sensor), mainly. ============================== From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: Ogreverse Wild Weasels We can assume that theres a lot of ECM on each unit, and a lot coming from behind the front lines. So we're looking for highly localized extra margin for mission-critical units. The only thing we have to go on are the electronic warfare (EW) aircraft of the last thirty years. So far, they've used small, older units, fighters on the verge of retirement - the F-4, the F-111, and now the A-6 (which was a bomber, but its fighter-sized). Okay, the F-111 wasn't small, but we're not talking about big airplanes. Five or six years from now the EA-6B Prowler will be replaced by the EF/A-18E/F Growler, as the F-18 nears the end of its life cycle and begins to be replaced by the F-22. Wait, is the F-22 carrier based? I forget, no time to look it up, but you see my point. I suspect that this little bit of extra we're looking for will be mountable on a standard GEV frame, I don't think you'll need a SHVY or an Ogre. I too, prefer to play with the classic units. I haven't seen anything else that really discards my sabots. But I thought the Raptor-WW would add an element of management to a scenario. I tried to find out the effective range of the EA-6B, the US Navy's current (EW) aircraft. It can protect ships, aircraft, and ground forces for a lot farther than 3000 meters, but its up in the air. It has one pilot and *three* EW officers! But how to limit its effect so that its interesting? Adjacent hexes seems too much, single hex seems to little. When it doubt, show restraint. We can always reduce the cost if no one ever uses them. So, if I get a chance to try it, which won't happen anytime soon, I think I'll try the 9-point, single hex version. Oh, and if the WW is disabled no one gets the defense bonus. Point balance-wise, its like a weaker, but moving, revetment. I don't think equivelent versions for HVY and LTNKs would add anything. If a LTNK isn't tough enough for a job, you send a HVY, and the HVY is tough enough if you correctly use it for appropriate applications. As for the mini, I was thinking of using the normal Raptor, but substituting a taller, squarish, I-Don't-Know-What for the turret. Then I could take the left over turret, slap it on another Raptor for a 3/2 HGEV... Oh, wait, I forgot, I don't like exotic units. Andrew ============================== From: Servitor@aol.com Subject: New Ogre Page > http://hometown.aol.com/servitor/Ogreindex/ogrindex.htm > > Very cool :). The pic on the front page is the best image I've ever Thanks! But I hope everyone's seen the ALT tag I have on the image. It was actually produced by Richard Meaden (so I've been told), the same fellow who produced the fantastic OGRE shirt available (order yours now!). I found it in the back of an early Pyramid (remember, when it was still a printed magazine?) and asked SJ Games in advance if I could use it. To my surprise they said "yes". Guess it was my "no-prize" for finding it in the first place. (See, it's better to ask permission than to beg forgiveness.) I had to run it through Photoshop to get rid of lettering and some other clutter, but it came out quite nice. The whole experience of building (and now maintaining) a website has been both a pain and quite gratifying. For any of you with a ton of material for OGRE sitting around that you'd like to share, I can think of no better way than building a site to do so. Try it! best, John Hurtt (Servitor@aol.com) -Yes, I'm a game geek, how did you know? -MK Vs make great paperweights! ============================== From: patrick.odonnell@materna.de Subject: Battlesuit >> Today, it is done with guile suits and VERY SLOW MOVEMENT... > How about some type of modified Ranger battlesuit, ... >>Heavy Weapons are already in the game... > Yeah, but the notes state that heavy weapons are the Ogre equivalent of ... This should probably be re-thought in light of the fact that the Spec-Ops types of today have at least two types of bolt action .50 cal. sniper rifles to choose from. We are talking about, at the very least, a seriously upgraded version of that. (Maybe even a Bullpup configuration). Further, I think I read something somewhere about the Germans having a .63 Cal *Anti-Tank* Rifle all the way back in WWII. The problem was that the *Hitler-Jugend* that carried them kept getting their shoulders seperated due to kick back and the things had a nasty habit of blowing up when one pulled the trigger. But, in the future these problems will probably have been solved. I can't imagine that the sniper of the future is going to be carrying a caliber smaller than .50. Pat ===== [If you send a boy to do a man's work I can see how he'd get all bent out of shape. Either the Personal Gauss Cannon or the M-LAWS would shatter any suit on the market, but the Gauss Cannon outranges other infantry weapons. -HJC] Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com Archives at http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2001, by Steve Jackson Games.