===== Battlesuit: Snipers From: "Blount, Stephen" From: "Hunt, Kirk (Tucson)" From: David Evans ===== New Miniatures From: "Grogan, Paul" ===== [sjgames-illuminator] Miniatures Scheduling Change From: webmaster@sjgames.com ===== LSEV 2.1 From: Charles Barnett ===== GURPS Madness From: "Blount, Stephen" ===== Sea Snake From: Charles Barnett ===== GEV-WW and "range" of effect From: Michael Powers ===== ECM & BIG GUNS! From: David Evans ===== alphabet soup From: Terry Hewitt ===== Hydrofoils From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com From: "Blount, Stephen" Subject: Battlesuit: Snipers >> Further, I think I read something somewhere about the Germans having a .63 Cal *Anti-Tank* Rifle all the way back in WWII. The problem was that the *Hitler-Jugend* that carried them kept getting their shoulders seperated due to kick back and the things had a nasty habit of blowing up when one pulled the trigger. But, in the future these problems will probably have been solved. I can't imagine that the sniper of the future is going to be carrying a caliber smaller than .50. Several nations produced an "anti-tank" rifle back in the interwar years, during the short technological window during which they were feasible. The current major-caliber sniper weapon fad is taking advantage of a different tech "loophole," in advanced materials fabrication. The Ogreverse sniper will probably not be carrying a bigger gun than the squad support weapon from Battlesuit; that's already plenty of railgun. The difference will probably be the presence of a specialized sniper round, something with a hotter engine than the "service" round, more resistance to countermeasures, and the ability to be "handed off" between multiple sources of targeting. In fact, just the actions of a regular platoon or squad of infantry are probably presumed to include the use of just such snipers -- it just doesn't show up on the scale of the game. On second thought, the best sniper is probably a drone designed for the job, and designed to be expendable. That way the guy in the ranger suit can be *really* far away. --Stephen Blount ===== From: "Hunt, Kirk (Tucson)" Subject: Battlesuit: Snipers > Further, I think I read something somewhere about the Germans having a >.63 Cal *Anti-Tank* Rifle all the way back in WWII. I have seen footage of *a* US anti-tank rifle. It's mounted on a tripod, and there's NO PRETENSE that somebody is hoofing around the battlefield with it. I would like to say the monster uses a 20MM round, but I can't remember.... Whatever round it shoots, it's intended to have really LONG range or to kill light armor. I agree with you Patrick: Snipers are here to stay. The two snipers who stood off half of the Somali Army, when those Blackhawks went down, ran out of ammo. I think that demonstrates the value of sniper sklls. Now we're only bickering about the equipment... Which I think will involve some sort of stealth battlesuit that would be heavy on signal supression and passive sensors unless invisibility ala Preadator/Jem'Hadar could be put in place. Kirk ===== From: David Evans Subject: Battlesuit: Snipers > From: patrick.odonnell@materna.de > Further, I think I read something somewhere about the > Germans having a .63 Cal *Anti-Tank* Rifle all the way > back in WWII. The problem was that the *Hitler-Jugend* > that carried them kept getting their shoulders seperated > due to kick back and the things had a nasty habit of > blowing up when one pulled the trigger Well, the latter is a serious deisgn flaw, but the former could be gotten 'round nowadays with recoil dampners. I remember reading that the M-60 Support Machine Gun was only ever issued to the largest strongest grunts because: a) it weighed a helluva lot, and even more once you added the weight of the ammo in! b) You needed someone tough because the combination a large calibur weapon (anyone any idead of the size of it? .6 comes to mind but it's probably wrong) and a huge muzzel velocity meant that soldiers firing it got nose bleeds with every shot from the kickback! > But, in the future these problems will probably have > been solved. You mean a free cold compress with every Big Gun (tm)? > I can't imagine that the sniper of the future is going > to be carrying a caliber smaller than .50. That would depend on a lot of things. I seem to rememebr that one of the nastiest weapons in MegaTraveller was the 4mm Gauss Pistols due to rediculous velocity you got on the rounds. Remember the kinetic energy of an object is equal to the mass of the object multiplied by the velocity SQUARED. Double the velocity, four times the Kinetic energy. And even a 4mm Du round would giev you a lot of mass to play with... David. From: "Grogan, Paul" Subject: New Miniatures Thanks to the OGRE plot, I'm sure many of you have got lots of new Combine miniatures. I need to get my hands on some of the new miniatures. Specifically: Combine MHWZ Combine LGEV Paneuropean LGEV Now, I know these are available in boxed format, but I want about 8-10 Combine MHWZ and you only get 2 in the box set (along with 6xMSL). I already have plenty MSL's. Same goes for the Combine GEV set. And, as for getting hold of the Paneuropean LGEV's, I think they are only available in Deluxe GEV at present. Anyone know when we can buy these individually? Paul Grogan Mib 0307 www.runestonegames.freeserve.co.uk From: webmaster@sjgames.com Subject: [sjgames-illuminator] Miniatures Scheduling Change In order to meet the continuing high demand for Deluxe Ogre, Deluxe G.E.V., and the other miniature sets ( http://www.sjgames.com/miniatures ) we have already released, we have hired another caster, and we will concentrate on the existing products until we can fill all orders immediately. This will push back our next announced releases (Combine Company Sets 2 and 7) by at least a month. Later releases will also be delayed. Rather than reschedule these for specific dates, though, we are just going to get to them in the order they were announced, as quickly as we can. We’ll keep you posted. It’s all your fault for buying so many :-) Thank you! -- Steve Jackson ( http://sj.sjgames.com/ ) From: Charles Barnett Subject: LSEV 2.1 > [It doesn't look any more dense than a plain old GEV so why should it >defend better against cruise missiles or even lesser explosions? -HJC] Against lesser munitions, I'd say ECM. It's big and expensive and so gets a better suite. I stand by D3. Cruises. Before GURPS Ogre, my picture of the effect of a shockwave on a GEV was old film of parked WWII aircraft flipped and tossed by nuke tests. Density and lack of solid contact with the ground would be the two problems. Being told that a GEV masses 50% more than an Abrams shook that. I reviewed effects in Shockwave and Miniatures and was surprised. The 'no effect' range for a GEV is 6 hexes in Shockwave and > 7" (3.5 hexes) in Miniatures! The latter does not distinguish between units, either by defense or move mode. My Shockwave is first edition. Did the rule change in later editions, or are the systems inconsistent? In terms of boardgame stats, a light tank is a half-price GEV on tracks. Consulting GURPS, I find that a GEV is actually denser than an LT! Then I thought I'd try to resolve a cruise vs. GEV attack with GURPS. At 4 miles (~4 hexes), a 100 kiloton blast does 12dx3 crushing. Attacking each subassembly with this much is ineffective, even before squaring armor DR against concussion. This is consistent with Miniatures' 'no effect'. There does not seem to be enough overpressure to worry about turning turtle. If Miniatures is authoritative, there's no need to give the LSEV special treatment against shockwaves. But I find that assuming 'mediocre' lines, the GEV can't even float at rest! While the army would go play in the water at need, they don't do that for a living. This will not do for a naval unit. I know they're different game systems and it's a game rather than a sim, but wow. I think SJ has said he's dissatisfied with GURPS Ogre's (mis?)use of the Vehicles rules. Is this the sort of thing he means? ===== [This is the first I've heard of Steve distancing himself from GURPS Ogre. But the numbers in GO seem to be cooked to fit in with space opera scenarios, rather than fitting into the assumptions of the OGREverse. IMNSHO, a truely universal role playing system will have to allow for different theories of technological development, just as it allows for different types of magic. After all, the basic concept of science fiction is "What if X happened, what else would that imply?" And every author marks X in his own way. -HJC] From: "Blount, Stephen" Subject: GURPS Madness >>. And when The Lone GEV was written, we didn't know a hypersmart was 3k pounds. A GEV or GEV-PC chassis at 97-112 tons couldn't haul many around. For a realistic loadout, the Cub would need icky record keeping. A missle tank is 200 tons. >>Under GURPS Ogre, take the GEV-PC and scrape 15 tons of infantry off the back ("Ouch!"), that'd carry a third the launch rails of the missile tank and half it's missile load. Hmmm... won't do. On the other hand, a Rattler plus launch tube is six tons and a GEV-PC plus two loaded Rattler tubes is two megabucks less than a plain old GEV. (Inspired by the anonymous drawing on page 95 of the new OGRE book.) I believe SJ has already come out and disavowed the GURPS Vehicles stats in GO -- and rightfully so. A *200-ton* missile tank?! That seems a little excessive for what's supposed to be a light armored vehicle with lightweight, high tech armor like BPC. (For that matter, a 60-ton LGEV? At that weight, no matter how efficient it's skirt arrangement is, the ground pressure it'll generate will put it right on the bottom of a lake it tries to "skim" over. If a GEV is actually considered to be some sort of vectored-thrust vehicle instead of a hovercraft, that might be defensible...) There's a lot of good stuff in GO, but it's a bad idea to go using the wacky numbers in it to justify or reject new units. --Stephen Blount From: Charles Barnett Subject: Sea Snake Henry Cobb said: >Sea Snake (GEV-OM) Attack: 1 Range: 4" Defense: 2 >Two one shot missiles Attack: 6 Range: 10" >Move: 6"/4" Movement Mode: GEV Size: 3 Points: ? A fine way to painlessly and economically perform howitzerectomies in Breakthrough scenarios where the defender is using INF screened artillery. So SJ will prolly want to disallow it somehow. *I* like it. > Oblivously, I overlooked the pricetag for three tons of advanced >sensors to spot targets for those missiles. -HJC] Maybe that's why we haven't seen it ashore. Pay for the electronics and it makes a good patrol boat. Cheaper that my PSEVM for certain. From: Michael Powers Subject: GEV-WW and "range" of effect How about something like this...the GEV-WW can protect a certain maximum "size" of units, say up to six "size classes" of units. That could be three twos, two threes, a four and two ones, etc. These units can be anywhere within one hex of the GEV-WW. That way you don't have to have everything in the same hex, but you also don't get one GEV-WW protecting an entire battalion. -- Michael Powers Graduate Student, GWU/JIAFS NASA Langley Research Center (757) 864 4457 -- m.t.powers@larc.nasa.gov From: David Evans Subject: ECM & BIG GUNS! *Delurks from his Stealth Bunker...* > From: "Andrew Walters" > We can assume that theres a lot of ECM on each unit, and a > lot coming from behind the front lines. So we're looking > for highly localized > extra margin for mission-critical units. IIRC, the Orge Ninja had *lots* of electronics to give it an ECM/ECCM "edge", which made it's opponents take one off of the result of any roll against it on the CRT. I don't have the rules to hand, so someone else can confirm it. > I suspect that this little bit of extra we're looking for > will be mountable on a standard GEV frame, I don't think > you'll need a SHVY or an Ogre. I dunno, the Ninja needed a HELLUVA lot of electronics to protect itself, nevermind anything else around it. I'm guessing if it was retrofitted into a GEV it should be a GEV-PC, or more likely, a GEV-HQ. I would suggest perhaps placing it in a Heavy or a Superheavy Frame, keep the movement and Defense the same but have zero Attack Strength instead. How does that sound? > But how to limit its effect so that its interesting? > Adjacent hexes seems too much, single hex seems to little. > When it doubt, show restraint. We can always reduce the > cost if no one ever uses them. Having a effect like the Ninja's (or whatever else take your fancy) in just the one hex seems a bit too paltry really. I would say the hex it's in and the surrounding six hexes. I think it could be seriously abused if it had a two hex area effect outwith it's own hex. But all of this depends on it's relative cost and it's Defence Value, ie how vulnerable it is to being put out of action by enemy forces. After all, any force will want to target it for destruction ASAP. > So, if I get a chance to try it, which won't happen > anytime soon, I think I'll try the 9-point, single hex > version. Oh, and if the WW is > disabled no one gets the defense bonus. I like the Disabled screws the defense bCnus idea a lot! :) My suggestion would be a GEV-HQ type vehicle with M3/2, D3 or 4 (accounting for the ECM/ECCM helping it some) and zero Attack Strength, giving a helping hand to friendly units over a two hex range. Cost? I'm not sure. How about 3 Armour units or 18 points? Alternatively, you could put it into a SHVY frame with stats, M3, D5, Ataack zero. Defensive bonus over a two hex range and a cost of four or five units (24/20 points) seeing as it has a higher Defense value. Whaddya think? Go ahead, shoot me down in flames. No, not literally... From: Terry Hewitt Subject: alphabet soup Three quick points: 1. I appreciate the replies to my alphabet soup questions. They really helped me make sense of it all. Thanks guys!! 2. Henry pointing out that SATNUC was defined on pg. 108 reminds me to employ yet another alphabet soup - RTFM! 3. APFSDSDU. It occurs to me that they chose the order of the terms with some care. Reversing the order of DS and DU creates armor-piercing fin-stabelized DUDS - not exactly a name designed to inspire confidence! :-) Terry From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com Subject: Hydrofoils [The value of such a unit would vary widely depending on how wet the map is. Assuming that it could be used in sea states that the cub couldn't, then a price tag of an armor unit and a half would not be unreasonable. (Also it'd have naval hypersmart missiles which the "landlocked" Chicago armed forces wouldn't feel the need for. ;-) Sounds good to me, although I think 2 armor units would work, naval units tend to be more expensive than others. Last time I checked the Great Lakes are not exactly the local fishing ponds. >>A GEV version of this wouldn't be as blunt as the LSEV and so might be 4/3 on water. Eureka! I've reinvented the Chi Cub. Hiyo Silver, away! Sorry. Seriously, I think this is a good idea. We know SJ doesn't want many of these critters about. And when The Lone GEV was written, we didn't know a hypersmart was 3k pounds. A GEV or GEV-PC chassis at 97-112 tons couldn't haul many around. For a realistic loadout, the Cub would need icky record keeping. A missile tank is > 200 tons. Ah, but for a patrol boat, it makes sense. It's bigger and more expensive, to haul something like a MSL's 36 hypersmarts, so there aren't many around. Though it's still cheap, as naval units go. Like an LSEV, you wouldn't lightly take it into a fight ashore.<< I like it. Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com Archives at http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2001, by Steve Jackson Games.