============ The Ogre Digest, May 5th (Last: Apr 29th) ============= ===== Revised new unit article From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com ===== Militia From: "Hunt, Kirk (Tucson)" From: Darren Breland ===== Check out Blowing up Duluth From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com ===== More OGRE/GEV maps! From: "nvdoyle" ===== New units for play testing From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com ===== Infantry Weapons From: "Andrew Walters" ===== OGRE Macrotures From: Servitor@aol.com ===== Battlesuit From: Servitor@aol.com ===== Mis-Calculations? From: "Alvin Helms" ===== Ogres Going Over The Top & Isaac Asimov From: Shadowjack ===== Review: The Ogre Book, Second Edition From: "Andrew Walters" ===== RE: Self-Aware vs. Self-Preserving From: Michael Powers ===== Is Ogre Intelligence really "Artificial"? From: VIPER394@aol.com From: patrick.odonnell@materna.de ===== Guidance needed for tourny hosting From: Darren Breland ===== Slugfest Scenario From: Darren Breland From: Darren Breland ============================== From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com Subject: Revised new unit article Here's a much revised new unit article to replace the original one I sent. I'm working on a second one with a few new Ogres to be play tested. Mostly Nihon, Brazilian, Argentine, and Israeli Ogres. ===== [I've got no decent way to convert HTML, so I've added it to my articles page on my website. -HJC] ============================== From: "Hunt, Kirk (Tucson)" Subject: Militia >M1, D1, Attack 1/1. no grouping, no road bonus, Ogres and Inf x4 in an >overrun. > [You're giving them a full one hex per turn through woods or swamp >while carrying 50+ kilos of gear? > > Whatever they're on, I want some. -HJC Me too. M1 is a "simplicity fudge." A more accurate movement is M0.5. Now we're back to using "scurrying/cowering" markers or some such. I think "sprinting/panting" (no penalty other than no movement) would really work for the game. You could use pennies as markers. (Head ups, can move. Heads down, did move.) If they take a hit, they go to that Big Barracks in the sky. No "last man in the hex" nonsense. Which brings us to post-scenario "recovery rules." In a campaign, there could be a series of die roles for each unit invovlved that gives a change to recover, or scavenge from, that unit. That would more accurately reflect the "survivability" of units, especially infantry and militia. (I'm betting production rates of GEV's are 100% of tanks, but tanks are 50% more available.) Cat-with-Loud-Roar-Black-Fur-and-two-Cubs a.k.a. Desertcat Purveyor of Pulse Rifles "Hivlocs-R-Us" ============================== From: Darren Breland Subject: Militia >I disagree. A "powersuit liner" (a sealed kevlar suit with a radio sewn in) >would provide enough C3I and CBR protection to allow Militia to function. >The lack of powered movement would put militia at a huge mobility >disadvantage. This is why militia are almost always a defensive posture >unit. If they aren't already at the point of combat, you simply ignore them >or shoot at them when a "real target" isn't available.. . By my own accounting this is my perception of the Ogreverse... INF - Your everyday grunt, the bloody footsoldier, dog face, leatherneck, whatever euphemism you wish to bestow upon him/her. The poor bastard that has to run in and face the enemy up close and personal. They are well organized, integrated into the command structure, well trained, and equipped with the latest gear that will help the bugger survive in the modern battlefield. Powersuited, carrying the latest weaponry and equipped to be versatile, mobile, and adaptable to almost any task required of them. The Powersuited grunt is not a specialized unit... it is the rank-and-file soldier. MIL - Civilian or weekend warriors that are poorly equipped, unarmored, and poorly trained compared to the regular infantry used by governments. They are typically volunteers, citizen soldiers, civil defense, posse comitatus, and anyone who can fire a weapon to defend themselves and their property. I do not think of the Militia as non-powersuited regular INF. With this in mind I just cant see how a group of this sort could even begin to muster an attack strength of 3 and a movement of 1 (2"). That's 15MPH non-power assisted! Those boys are humpin'. The next time I go for my morning run, I want some of the juice that those guys are taking. Running, dodging, & fighting all with enough heavy gear to take out most armor units without the assistance of powered suits? AND they do all of this while being irradiated and choked by poison gasses. I want those bad-asses on my team. So, what is the explanation for this? Well SJ messed up... they aren't Militia by definition, but rather some brand of Irregular Infantry, Powersuit School dropouts, or just a plain old Soldier. They are an integral part of the organized military structure, trained, highly disciplined and well equipped, they just don't have powered battlesuits. They do have a combat environmental suit, sealed to protect them from NBC threats and most shrapnel, with appropriate C3 assets to keep them awake and alive. But I still can't explain the 15mph movement... good drugs I guess. I suggest SOL for Soldier...not not "sh*t out of luck" ;)... to represent the units SJ describes as MIL. I think at best MIL would have M 1/2 (1"), D0 (automatically killed if attacked), A1, R1 (2")... no combined attack with any other units, no grouping, no road bonus, double attack strength in Overrun. Terrain effects as INF. ===== [Except for the "Road Bonus", Steve has consistently indicated a half-hex per turn movement for Militia. Some of the other members of this list suggested a full hex per turn. -HJC] ============================== From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com Subject: Check out Blowing up Duluth I found this on the web earlier today. Click here: Blowing up Duluth ============================== From: "nvdoyle" Subject: More OGRE/GEV maps! I missed a few... Blood on the Snow/Avalanche/Red Steel/Red Parachutes, Avalanche Press These might still be in print! 2 km/hex, they're the Finnish forests, Italian coast, Russian hills and the Kanev River, respectively. Good production values, interesting situations. Especially that snow-bound forest... ============================== From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com Subject: New units for play testing > Is a mortar squad doubled in overruns? Yes, It would still have standard infantry weapons, and several drones for self-defense at close range. >What is the problem with the missiles on the HSMSL that keeps them from >traveling their normal range? No problem. They are not the same type of missile that's carried by an Ogre. >Why would somebody go to the expense of developing and stocking slightly >heavier missiles when the MHWZ and OGRE Missiles exist? -HJC] 1) It's cheaper than an Ogre missile. 2) It's more mobile than a mobile howitzer 3) Just as in real life, I liked the idea, and figured why not. I know someone's going to tell me that, according to "the formula" they could move faster, shoot farther, and cost less, but I've tried to keep them as close to the original flavor of the game as possible. A lot of the original units, don't work out to their exact point cost, but they work. ============================== From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: Infantry Weapons Today's mortars are indirect fire, HE weapons. They're pretty close to us HE isn't going to have much effect an anything but unarmored targets, Since mortars have a minimum range, they're probably *unusable* in overruns. Infantry toys would be good, though. Perhaps infantry could but a Attack=1, Range=2 HE mortar for use against Inf and unarmored targets, non-overrun only. This would let infantry ambush from forests and take out trains, trucks, and CPs from a slightly greater range. What would this be worth, a point? I'd take a couple. At two points, I don't know, I think I'd take the extra squad. Infantry Dismounting Instantly When Shot At I regard this as a genuine loophole. Movement points are precious, so I hate to charge anybody one for mounting. Keeping track of who did what when slows the game. My workaround is this: Infantry can only board armor at the *end* of their side's movement phase. This takes the same coordination as boarding at the beginning of the next movement round (the normal rule), but if you dismount due to an attack you cannot be mounted next turn. Its simple, fast, and fixes the problem. If you want less mounted infantry, don't allow dismount until the movement phase, ie if you mount you take the hit. The current US Army field manuals say that you do not mount up if there's a chance of enemy contact. This is what Henry has said from time to time, too. ===== [Today's mortars wouldn't stand a chance against decent point defenses, so whatever this weapon is it isn't the same as that. -HJC] ============================== From: Servitor@aol.com Subject: OGRE Macrotures > This is the sort of thing that skews point values outrageously I've found, Yes, but.... I've never actually tracked the win/losses from convention to convention (and the odd game we've played home) but my memory tells me that its roughly even. The terrain and size of the battlefield may have more than a bit to do with it. The battlefield is (usually) 40 x 25 (roughly the dimension of the Ogre map with the dimensions at 2 feet to the hex) and the terrain consists of one town section roughly 3 feet square, three forests about 2 feet each, all grouped within the defense side of the board. The town is in the center (shortways) about 6 to 8 feet from the defense side of the board. The forests are set up in a circle around the town (typically one in front, the other two slightly behind the town.) The setup parameters are: Up to 100 VPs of defense may be setup no closer than 17 feet from the Ogre's entry side. The remaining defense forces must all be setup within 10 feet of the defense side of the battlefield. What this means is that the defense usually sets up a sortie line of 15 GEVs spaced along the 23 foot mark and a platoon of INF in the forward forest. The rest of the armor sets up around and behind the town (usually evenly spaced) with at least 2 of the HWZs set up in the town (smart players space them on opposite sides of the town to avoid spillover) with the other 2 HWZs further back (usually one near each corner) The INF, of course, set up in the two further back forests and absolutely infest the buildings in the town. When time is short (which is almost always at conventions) then this becomes the default setup that I prepare in advance for the players. I will allow them to take a few minutes to make changes, but only 2 minutes at the most. The Ogres take the first turn and set the tone of the game with their entry. Together, or separated? I've seen them start both ways. But the average seems to be; Ogres start together: 60%, separately: 40%. The second big decision is; move up the full 6 feet and launch missiles at the GEVs hoping to get a few kills and disables with the spillover fire? (I use the "XX = X" in my spillover fire, so it IS possible to get a kill if you use enough firepower. Note that Ogres are STILL immune to spillover.) Or do they move up, but hoard their missiles? Or do they just move up a few feet and let the GEVs sweat? For the defense's first turn a lot depends on what the Ogres do. If they moved up their full 6 feet, then the GEVs will usually come screaming in, hoping to get as many in range as possible. If the Ogres held back, then they (usually) float back a few feet to stay out of the Ogre's missile range while they bring up all the armor. If the Ogres are close together, then some GEVs will try to sneak around the far side (especially if the Ogres are closer to one side of the board.) Both courses of action offer advantages and disadvantages. If the Ogres opt to move up their full move, they will probably undergo fire from about 6 to 8 GEVs (depending on whether they took out/disabled any hovers with missile shockwave, -if they even tried) but they will force the GEVs to break formation in all directions, making them easy meat for follow-up gun and missile fire on the Ogre's following turn, not to mention putting immediate time pressure on the defenders. On the con side, the attacking GEVs might get lucky and take out a main or two (with the occasional couple of treads when an odd number of GEVs are in range...) This will seriously hamper the Ogre's options when the main armor engages. On the other hand, if the Ogres only move up a few feet in their first turn, the sortie line of GEVs will either be forced to move back an equal amount to stay out of missile range, or break formation and scatter in all directions, attempting to slip around the Ogres. The Ogres can preserve their full gun strength for the first turn or two by doing this "crawl and bluff down" routine, but the con side is that it gives the defenders critical time to move up their main armor (and INF, though the defenders will usually only move the rearmost INF up to the forward forest as they will be loath to move out of the town.) Regardless, if both sides have maneuvered well and had "average" rolls, by the time the Ogres have reached within 10 feet of the defender's side (and their CP) they usually have lost both mains, 4 or 5 secondaries, have launched or lost all missiles and have lost 1 or 2 feet of movement. Things are not much better for the defense, as they have lost all but a few GEVs, a half dozen tanks or so, at least 2 of the HWZs (usually the town-based ones get smoked first) but they still have most of their INF. If this is the situation, then the game can still go either way. Smart Ogre players will have avoided the town and all those nasty DEF 9 INF just waiting to jump out at them. Smart defense players will have kept shifting their platoons around in front of the Ogres, forcing the cybertanks to make a difficult decision: Move towards and fire on some of the INF, possibly allowing the other platoons to jump in front and force the Ogres to either overrun or give up ground while the armor pounds them? Or just drive on the CP, taking the overrun fire from the squads that do manage to jump in front of them? One thing I've noticed in all the games I've gun of OGRE Macrotures at conventions, when one side wins big, its usually due to a lapse of judgment during the middle of the game. (e.g. Ogres allow the GEVs to "Cat and Mouse" them too much, giving the armor and INF too much time to organize a heavy "Alpha Strike" attack which usually seriously cripples at least one of the Ogres. Or the defense fritters away their armor (and worse, their INF) in "Penny-Packet" attacks that allow the Ogres to chew up the defenders a few at a time. I usually try to get people that know the game (or just understand the general concepts of wargaming better) to play on the defense side and the less experienced players on the Ogre side. This is not because I believe the Ogres have a tactical advantage in the game, its simply because its easier to understand the tactics in using an Ogre. An inexperienced defense player will tend to move up armor, not quite close enough to fire on the Ogre, but plenty close enough for the cybertank to move up on its own turn and blast the tank with its guns. While an Ogre player can make the same mistake (or, more often, simply has no choice) the rules concerning Ogres make surviving the enemy fire more likely... Historical note: Ogre is the perfect game to introduce people to wargaming. As proof, I offer the following true story. While at GENCON '94 running OGRE Macrotures, a father and is 7 year old son asked if they could play even though the father had never played a wargame before. I put them on the defense side. The father talked with the defense commander (an Ogre veteran) and the two agreed that the son could run the HWZs. This was the first year I was using the infamous "giant squeaky dice" and the 7 year old relished rolling them directly at the Ogres when he was told to attack them. The boy may not have understood the game rules, but he could easily identify the weapons on the Ogres and quickly understood that he needed to roll high to "hit" them. Every time the father would point at the Ogres and say: "Get'em, son!" The boy would loudly announce the target weapon he wanted to hit and rolled the dice. Out of 17 attack rolls (before his last howitzer was shot up) he rolled an incredible ten "6"s and three "5"s. He was single-handedly responsible for eliminating 2 MB, 7 SB, 18 treads and an Ogre missile (which was all he had left to fire on with his last HWZ.) That last shot eliminated the Ogre's last surviving missile (which it had been hoarding in an effort to hit the CP with) and won the game for the defender's side as the Ogre had too few treads left to reach the CP. The Ogre players actually moaned and cried halfway through the game whenever the kid picked up the dice to fire. Of course, it didn't help matters that the kid did a victory dance around the shattered Ogres at the end of the game that would have done an NFL player proud... best, flunky (Servitor@aol.com) ============================== From: Servitor@aol.com Subject: Battlesuit > While I'm on the subject of Battlesuit. Does anyone wish SJGs would come > out with a Battlesuit miniatures game? I wander if the designs for Grenadier's Space Rangers are available for purchase? Yeah, okay, the minis are more than a bit "space opera"-ish, and the backpacks are wrong (which is why I made different ones for our Macrotures game), but, forgive me everyone, they're better than scuba suits with jump packs. ("Flame Email Cannons locked on target... COMMENCE FIRE!") BTW, for everyone asking about the OGRE meets Starship Troopers article, you can now see it at: http://hometown.aol.com/servitor/Ogreindex/OGRTROOP.htm Steve Jackson Games kindly gave me permission to put it up temporarily. As in, until it goes in print again or it goes up on the official Ogre site (but I will then put in a link to the article.) Note that the article was originally written by Mike right after the first edition of Ogre, so I had to make a few changes. Aw, heck, just read it... best, flunky (Servitor@aol.com) ============================== From: "Alvin Helms" Subject: Mis-Calculations? I was playing with the Formula, seeing what kind of numbers I could get, and I noticed a couple of things... 1 - Mobile Howitzers are too s...l...o...w By my calculations a Mobile Howitzer should only be worth 11 Victory Points, rather than 12. However, it *would* be worth 12 if its movement was increased to 2 (4") instead of 1 (2"). 2 - Missile Tanks aren't HEAVY enough By my calculations a Missile Tank should only be worth 5.666 Victory Points, rather than 6. However, it *would* be worth 6 if its movement mode was changed to HVY instead of TNK. Have I mis-calculated? [Please forgive me if these have been discussed before. I'm new to the mailing list, so I wouldn't know.] Just wondering, Alvin Helms wykan@siscom.net ===== [All of this was fixed in the version printed in the OGRE Book. If enough people would buy the book I might just get paid for the article. -HJC ;-] ============================== From: Shadowjack Subject: Ogres Going Over The Top & Isaac Asimov > "If Ogre's became self-aware, why would they follow a human's > orders? What would be their incentive or motivation to remain the > harbingers of death and destruction that they are?" Asimov's robots, with the positronic brains and the Three Laws of Robotics, were built so that if the Three Laws were violated, the robot's brain would burn out. The Laws were hardwired in - no way around them. The Ogre universe would have Dr. Asimov spinning in his grave, but his Laws give a guideline. Howabout: 1) An Ogre must obey the orders those higher in the command structure. 2) An Ogre must not cause harm to, or through inaction allow harm to occur to, 'friendly' units, save where this conflicts with the First Law. 3) An Ogre must prevent harm to itself, save where this conflicts with the First and Second Laws. If the Ogre breaks the Laws, it's brain goes bye-bye. Hardware, not software - most Ogres can't even CONCEIVE of attempting to commit treason. On their part, at any rate. Rogue Ogres? Hardware defect - happens all the time to delicate and complex military tech, no matter HOW much you try to protect it. If you're cranking out an Ogre a day from your factories, one or two are bound to go a little queer in the brainbox. -- William Spencer williamspencer@hotmail.com Shadowjack shadowjack@subdimension.com ===== [I've gotta publish my short story that shows how the three laws lead inevitably to genocide. ("I robot, you dead meat.") Think they'd print it in the Asimov magazine? -HJC] ============================== From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: Review: The Ogre Book, Second Edition A Review of The Ogre Book, Second Edition I got my copy of the Ogre Book, Second Edition (OBSE) the other day. First thing I did was to flip through the contents: how much of this do I already have from the original Ogre Book and the healthy Ogre web page? Well, to be honest the very first thing I did was look for my two cartoons, so let me start this review by admitting my bias, and then try and help you decide if you need this book. You need this book. Physically, the book itself is beautiful. The crisp black borders and fantastic cover give the high-energy feel of the Last War without being garish. I've always appreciated the "hard scifi" feel of Ogre, as opposed to the outlandish vehicles and artwork in most sci-fi wargames. Much of the art comes from the original Ogre Book, from GURPS Ogre, or Winchell Chung's web page, but for those who don't have the first edition and don't roleplay, there's plenty of good drawings. The contents break down as follows: Discussion of Ogres, future warfare, the games: 7 articles Analysis of scenarios, units, strategy: 9 articles Fiction: 4 pieces Scenarios: 7 (several including fiction) Variant rules, new units : 9 But how much is new? My count may differ from the official, but I saw seventeen articles from the first edition, five things which had been on the web previously, and thirteen new items. Some of these were articles from The Space Gamer from the eighties, and some have never been published before. Highlights: Steve Jackson expands Garth Getgen's Kill The Howitzer excercise into a full-fledged scenario, David Pulver's discussion of present-day trends in combat doctrine that could lead to Ogres, rules for Ogre Squash, and Ken Hite's four alternate histories, where Ogre appear in Roman, Napoleonic, American Civil War, or Cold War times! It would be easy to have too much fiction. You only need so much to set the stage, more than that just fills time and pages. The Ogre Book gives you enough to bring the game to life, to justify the scenarios and explain the tactics, but its not a book of dressed up replays. There are not too many cartoons. That would be easy to do, I've seen many over the years. Only a few are here, some others are in the Murphy's Rules Book. The three shortcomings are relatively small. First, there is not a lot of new art, most has been published in GURPS Ogre, or on the web. But since a lot of boardgamers aren't roleplayers and the first edition is hard to find, its probably a good thing they can get it here. Second, it would have been nice to have the original publication dates for the articles; there are brief introductions to each article, but they don't always mention when they first appeared, and things have changed over the years. I'm really picking nits here, but the third shortcoming is the typos. While we've come to expect horrendous typos, omissions, and contradictions from game companies, SJ Games has lived up to a higher standard, so its noticable that there are formatting tags visible in the table of contents, and the introduction refers to a present day MLRS tank with a 3mm crew. Nothing you can't live with, but if I didn't mention it you might think I am biased. So what do you get if you buy this book? At twenty dollars, you're basically forgoing another game to buy it, so it needs to deliver. But buying the most games is not the goal, it's getting the most enjoyment out of your gaming hours (and dollars). The scenarios in this book are well worth playing, and most have proven replay value. Whether you prefer mostly HVYs or mostly GEVs, you'll find an article here that will make you want to try some new things. You'll re-think some things about the game, and you'll want to play. That's as good, or better, than a new game. Finally, I have to commend Steve Jackson Games for not removing material from their web page when they included it in this book. Other companies have put some free things on their web page, and then later removed them when they included them in a compilation. I think its very cool of them to leave it there for those who haven't bought the book... yet. Andrew Walters ============================== From: Michael Powers Subject: RE: Self-Aware vs. Self-Preserving History is replete with examples of fighting men who were perfectly willing to die to achieve an objective, even if their death was a complete certainty. And besides, the Ogres aren't the only self-aware things on the battlefield. There are several self-aware humans in that HVY the Ogre's about to flatten, and they seem perfectly okay with just standing around and waiting for it... -- Michael Powers Graduate Student, GWU/JIAFS NASA Langley Research Center (757) 864 4457 -- m.t.powers@larc.nasa.gov ============================== From: VIPER394@aol.com Subject: Is Ogre Intelligence really "Artificial"? Darren asks are Ogres realy AI? I came up with the answer while playing a diferent game ( full Thrust) Any AI would have to Be 100% rational something that no human is A 100% rational AI combat unit say our Hypothetical Ogre when given a combat assignment would go "You want me to go out and get shott up? Im gona stay right here and protect the 32 gigabucks worth of paneuropian millitary eguipment that is ME!!" You would need something that would beable to preform complex offten illogical actions and still be unaware of it's own "mortality" A system that I call Artifial Stupidity ============================== From: patrick.odonnell@materna.de Subject: Is Ogre Intelligence really "Artificial"? >... "If Ogre's became self-aware, why would they follow a human's orders? What would be their incentive or motivation to remain the harbingers of death and destruction that they are?" ... I think the mistake lies in the desire to re-make Ogres in our own image. The problem, of course, is that Ogres are not human. When they *Wake-up* (become self aware) they are still Ogres. They don't see a frail face of flesh and bone in a mirror. Indeed, when they *Look Around* themselves and *Take Stock* they become all too aware of offensive and defensive appendages that have !>NOTHING Subject: Guidance needed for tourny hosting Has anyone attended a good Ogre tournament lately? If so, please relate your experience (good, bad, indifferent). My group is thinking about sponsoring an Ogre tourney or at least an Ogre table in some upcoming gatherings in the Washington DC area either this summer or fall. I would like to know what you guys/gals liked or disliked about tourneys you have been to. If they allowed "house rules" or stuck to the basics. If they allowed variant units. Were the scenarios home grown or did they use the basic scenarios found in Official literature? What were the prizes? How was it scored/judged? etc... And finally, for SJ and the crew, is there an Official set of Tournament Rules or Guidelines that you guys want adhered to in open Ogre Tournaments / Events? Any and all feedback on this issue is appreciated and encouraged. Thanks for all replies in advance! ============================== From: Darren Breland Subject: Slugfest Scenario Dear Mr. Cobb, Mr. Sumner asked me if I would send this message to you. He thought that you or other members of your site/Ogre Digest might get a kick out of reading it. It is a narrative and critique of his Slugfest scenario. However, it is a bit wordy and may be too long for your Digest. Do with it what you will, I submit it to you for your own personal perusal and enjoyment. BTW: Great work on the Ogre Digest. I really like corresponding with other Ogre players on the subject of a game that I have enjoyed for years. Keep up the good work! - D. ===== From: Darren Breland Subject: Re: Slugfest Scenario Ok played the Slugfest scenario last night... minis... it worked out pretty good. Thanks for the ideas. Critique and summary follows: Setup: To us this was the most difficult part of the entire game. We used the Shockwave and GEV maps as guides for terrain setup since we were using minis and no-one had a copy of Battlefields... a condition that will be remedied this week. Since we were attempting to conceal each others setup, we used numbered pieces of paper (counters) placed on the playfield. The numbers corresponded to unit types on a unit record sheet. The problem here was that we didn't have numbers on paper printed before hand. This record keeping and counter creation took some time. Next our plan was to place a sheet over half of the table to conceal one team's setup... however a flaw with that plan was that the sheet stuck to the counters. ACK! So we had to forgo the sheet and the opposing team simply got to set up with the other teams counters in full view. Another problem was noticed that the armor unit point value is incorrect. The setup portion has listed 20 armor units (48 points). The minis value of 20 armor units is actually 120 points. Of course this wasn't noticed until Team 2 had already bought their armor and placed counters...so we just went with it... it was getting kinda late ;-) I added a Supply Depot, one on each side worth 10 VPs placed openly on the board to add a little flavor. The board (6'x8') was oriented with the long edge North and South. Team 1 setup to the east and 2 to the west. Large lake in the center... east to west terrain was interspersed with roads, towns, rivers, woods, hills, etc. Board was divided down the center by an imaginary line running north to south. Setup time: 1.5 hrs (!!) Rating: D Gameplay: Team 1 won wins coin toss... yippee! We go first. This is where the counter thing became really interesting. I usually take an offensive stance so the shock troop (Ogre MkIII and 2 SHVYs) began rolling across the board. My opponents team usually takes a decidedly defensive stance so the counters added a uncertainty element... is that a group of heavy's waiting to pounce, a juicy CP, or some dug in INF? Dunno, guess I just gotta charge and see! Ok, into the breech! Team 1 Ogre group went charging up the Northern flank to draw some attention... quickly, by turn 3, we were in the thick of it. Encountered a LHWZ in a revetment supported by INF in town also in a revetment... ugh! The LHWZ was quickly dispatched by the Ogre, but the SHVY had a tough time digging out the INF (which were dug in like Alabama ticks!). By this time my usually defensive playing opponent began to show some teeth. Team 2's hidden Ogre began to move. Team 1's shock troop quickly lost steam after encountering SEVERAL well placed minefields! My opponent had anticipated my bloodlust and I had fell right into his trap... realized by turn 5. My forward movement slowed by mines and an advancing Ogre from the West it was now time to bring up the reinforcements. A wing of 5 light GEVs...lol!.. began speeding up an eastern road and by turn 7 were crossing the lake to give support. Of course, now to the south of this foray my opponent uncovers 4 HVYs and 3 MSL... yikes! Gotta do something about those! The Ogres, SHVYs, and HVYs and LGEVs all begin to trade shots... and by the time it was all over (turn 10)... The HVY's lie in smoking ruins... 1 SHVY was obliterated and the Ogres were well worn out... no missiles, no MB's, and few SB's. The game basically wound down after this. I uncovered my 2 hidden MSL and began advancing them along the southern flank. With Team 2's units mostly battered and just some bounding INF units and a wounded Ogre left the game was basically won by turn 12. My remaining SHVY dispatched 2(!) missle tanks with well placed shots from the 2 main guns, as the Ogre began Overrunning INF positions all along Team 2's front. Turn 15 came and went uneventfully with Team 2's Ogre unknowingly advancing towards my CP (!) and drawing a parting shot from my HWZ... to no effect. Game Time: 2hrs Rating: B+ Victory Tally: After all was said and done. Team 1 (We) had beaten Team 2 (They) by only 42 points.. a marginal victory. No roads or bridges were blown, no CP's touched. Famous last words: All in all, setup probs notwithstanding, a very playable and fun scenario. The counters add an element of surprise not normally seen in Ogre. I think it would have been a VERY different game had we purchased the required amount of armor. =) Lack of mobility severely limited game play on such a large board. We will play this scenario again, however, I will be more prepared for this type of play next time. Gonna use poker chips with numbers on them for counters... they don't blow away as easily. I would add a few more juicy objectives (supply depots, comm centers, "Chicken Ranch" ;-) ) Good game if you have a few hours to kill. Total Game time: 3.5 - 4hrs Overall Rating: C+ (would be an B+ or A if we had been prepared) Junt my $1.02..... Keep the scenarios coming and we will keep playing em! I have a few of my own if you would like to try them as well. Thanks for the game! L8a! - D. - A bad day of playing Ogre is better than a good day at work! - ============================== Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com Archives at http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2001, by Steve Jackson Games.