============ The Ogre Digest, May 13th (Last: May 5th) ============= ===== [sjgames-illuminator] Now Shipping! From: webmaster@sjgames.com ===== 4HD: the Four-Howitzer Defense, Revisited From: Stephan Beal ===== Sligfest scenario From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com ===== Infantry Weapons From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com From: White Rat ===== Ogres Going Over The Top & Isaac Asimov From: "Andrew Walters" From: "David R. Crowell" ===== Guidance needed for tourny hosting From: "Andrew Walters" ===== Militia From: Darren Breland From: "Hunt, Kirk (Tucson)" From: Wrazor@aol.com ============================== From: webmaster@sjgames.com Subject: [sjgames-illuminator] Now Shipping! SJ Games Daily Illuminator ( http://www.sjgames.com/ill/ ) May 12, 2001: Now Shipping! -------------------------------------------------------------- The following products left our warehouse this week, headed for your local game store: Combine Set 2 - Ogre Mk. III ( http://www.sjgames.com/minis/ogre/combineset2/ ) (for Ogre Miniatures) The little brother of the fearsome Mark V, the Mark III was still big enough to stand in the line of battle . . . and like the Mark V, it fought on both sides, built by the Paneuropeans from captured templates. It adds 100 points to your army - on whichever side you choose! This set contains a complete Ogre Mark III; a full "repair kit" (an extra tower and a full extra set of guns) in case of battle damage; a "swimming tower" to represent the Ogre when it's underwater; and a record card. Miniatures in a box with a slip cover, #10-2102, ISBN: 1-55634-466-X, $16.95 Combine Set 7 - Howitzer Battery and Reinforced Infantry Battalion ( http://www.sjgames.com/minis/ogre/combineset7/ ) (for Ogre Miniatures) Build a solid defense against the worst that the Paneuropeans can throw at you. Start with a hard-hitting battery of two "Minotaur" howitzers, with its security section of two "Yankee" light tanks. Screen these assets with a whole infantry battalion - 3 companies of 4 platoons each, plus a reinforcing heavy-weapons company of 4 more platoons. (That's a total of 48 infantry figures, plus 12 heavy-weapon models.) Total value of these units is 150 points. Miniatures in a box with a slip cover, #10-2107, ISBN: 1-55634-471-6, $19.95 -- Keith Johnson ===== [Personally, If I had to defend a Howitzer Battery, I'd use LGEVs. They can zip back and forth to defend the whole line, they're too cheap to be worth chasing under the guns and their popguns are just right for totalling up an attack on something too light to be worth a shot from the big guns, but if the terrain was too rough for LGEVs, I wouldn't use light tanks instead. -HJC] ============================== From: Stephan Beal Subject: 4HD: the Four-Howitzer Defense, Revisited Hello, All, I've been spending some time with the classic 4-howitzer defense (I'll call it 4HD, for brevity), and I must agree with the comment printed in the notes about this article in the Ogre Book: "...not everyone can make it work." Creamed. Every single time. Creamed. I think the strategy in that game depends on the Ogre player being _afraid_ of the howitzers. I generally found that an Ogre which just charged in cleaned up pretty quickly. After several annoying defeats of what looks, on the surface, to be such a winning defensive strategy, I deviated from the article a bit and finally came up with a setup which I've found to work fairly consistently: First, the article says nothing of the remaining defending force - those 4 armor units. I'll discuss my unit selections later, after explaining the results: The article says that one of it's doctrines is that you should put all of your force into defending the howitzers. Following that advice, what I kept seeing happening was a bundle of units near the center of the map. An Ogre, when given an opportunity like that, can take out great numbers of units in short order. In these cases I found that if the Ogre just said, "fokk all," and charged ahead, it'd clean up in 3-4 turns. The games were ending, sometimes, with the Ogre idly wiping out the CP while one HWZ still pounded on it. Then it would go clean up, just because it bored. So the bundling had to stop. First, I moved the right-side howitzer in a bit. About 3 hexes. All of the HWZs have been subject to some fiddling, a hex or two in either direction. I ended up with a roughly diamond-shaped group of howitzers in approximately the same positions as in the diagram in the Ogre Book, page 49. If anything, the HWZs are to be shifted toward the _left_ of the board. I'll explain the reason for this later. I normally have the howitzers around hexes 1105, 1007, 0804, 0606, but this is also subject to my mood - deviation a hex or so shouldn't be too big of a problem, generally. For armor, I take 4 missile tanks. I place two on either side of the HWZs, several hexes forward of them, near either edge of the map, right at 3 hexes from the artillery max range (I don't care if the Ogre uses it's missiles on those - I consider that a fair trade-off). My infantry all group up in circular or vertical line formation to the left of the left-upper-most howitzer. Let the game begin. The basic defense strategy is sit tight. Don't ever go forward for a pop shot, _ever_. The Ogre must do one of two things, I think: 1) Run for the CP, and get nailed by the HWZs. 2) Run for the HWZ. #2 is where I had always made the mistake before. The 4 side-placed Missile Tanks, however, cleaned this up for me quite nicely. The Ogre, basically, must take out the howitzers. If it goes after the MSLs, it will be pounded for an extra turn or two, which seems like a fair tradeoff for the defender, but probably isn't what the Ogre wants. If he goes for the HWZs, the Missiles move in behind it, and get to finish it off, because the Ogre will probably take 3 turns to kill the howitzers, and will be slowed down by then if you're reasonably lucky. Pulling the Howitzers to the left: In doing this, the Ogre is forced to "swing out" more if it really wants to get the artillery. It doesn't give quite the coverage as that in the original article, but that is made up for by the missile tanks, at least to some degree. Forcing this broader approach path can buy you an extra turn or three (depending on how much you're able to slow it down). And if it doesn't take the broad path, you get some free shots at it, so it's a bonus either way. The defender must be careful not to let the MSLs get too close to the HWZs, lest they be mauled together in a group, and quickly eliminated. I had to be vigilant about Not giving in and going for pop-shots outside of the HWZ umbrella. I also had to be careful about not wasting my MSLs, going for a shot when I knew I would be capped off the next turn. I sometimes had to go without making a shot because I knew I'd be standing in Death's way if I did. I will generally not mind setting up an MSL to get shot at by a missile, because I consider that a worthwhile loss. I found that if I kept the MSLs out of it's way, the Ogre would generally go for the bigger threats. And if it didn't, the bigger threats would get it while it came for the small fries. It's important to keep the MSLs a bit ahead of the HWZs (i.e., lower down on the map), however, so the Ogre has to choose which way to go, and can't possibly pick off the MSLs and HWZs in the same turn. Infantry: save them up until the Ogre gets near the howitzers. If it goes after the guns, it may very well have been slowed down to 2 before the Infs get a chance to shoot. They are _quickly_ wiped out by the Ogre, because guns are _not_ the focus of fire - after MB and missiles are gone, hit _only_ treads. The SBs and APs will make very short order of the Infs, but they can clean up a good 6 treads or so before they go. It is normally during the last stand of the last one or two HWZs that my infantry come into play. You will lose a great number of these to SB fire. By this point in the game the Ogre is probably concentrating on going for the CP, so infantry are often immune to the APs as long as the Ogre has 2MPs left. I must fully agree with the final doctrine of the article: first go for the MB, then missiles, then treads. Forget the SBs. You don't have numeric superiority enough to get enough shots off - you have to be able to make each shot count at cutting down it's move/fire range. Getting the MB is critical to this, and Ogre will normally launch it's missiles before you get to shoot them (some players'll differ here). If it doesn't shoot them, don't care! Slow it down at all costs. The fact that it hasn't fired them means you have two extra armor units - take advantage of them! Unit Selection: This really can make a huge difference in this scenario. GEVs, I find, are useless here - their speed is not needed because we're sitting tight, plus their attacks are week. HVYs get shot up much more quickly because they have to get so close to the Ogre, which lets it use those otherwise largely-useless SBs (if you follow these guidelines, SBs aren't a real concern). MSLs fill the role nicely here, if they are allowed to come in from behind, once the Ogre has a lowered movement rate and cannot afford to come after them. If it does come after them, who cares! That gives the HWZs more time, and their attacks are more significant. Ogre Notes: As the Ogre player, I believe strongly in using the missiles early on - the first time you can cap a MSL, do it. The MSLs are the coupe-de-grace in this setup, normally, and will clean it off from behind as it scrapes towards the CP. Kill them, and the victory should be largely assured. But chasing them is a problem, of course, as it gets you nailed by the bigger guns for longer. The Ogre will _have_ to put itself in the line of heavy fire, at least briefly, in this scenario. Because of this, it must calculate every shot. Go for numerics - count up how many attack points you can reduce their force by based on each possible move, and go with what gives you the highest value. When figuring this, count only in terms of how much of that attack strength can possibly hit you on the defender's following turn. Anything else is moot. With this setup, the games have generally been quite close, with the Ogre being shut down from 3-5 hexes from the CP, always with 4 SBs and 8 APs remaining. This has been my experience in both solo play and with the mighty Hakon (the first Norwegian documented to have played Ogre in Malta ;). Before these changes in the setup, I was lucky to have it slowed down to 2 when it cleaned up my last whining infantry. Of course, luck will also play a part. In one game the Ogre blew both missile rolls, simply disabling two MSLs, which it then couldn't afford to go finish off because 2 HWZ were hitting it. Those two MSLs ended laying the killing blows, stopping it 4 hexes before the CP. There is also this often-observed phenomena of the Ogre player _always_ rolling higher numbers than the defender, and that can also have a great affect on this scenario. I'd be very interested in other peoples' experiences with the 4HD, both "canon" (pun very much intented) and with variations. Take care, ----- Stephan Beal - stephan@wanderinghorse.net http://qub.sourceforge.net - http://stephan.rootonfire.org http://dungeonmaker.sourceforge.net "Now I'm not normally the kind of person who likes to trespass, but sometimes you just find yourself over the line." -- Bob Dylan ============================== From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com Subject: Sligfest scenario >Another problem was noticed that the armor unit point value is incorrect. >The setup portion has listed 20 armor units (48 points). The minis value of >20 armor units is actually 120 points. 120 pts. of armor is the correct value. I started to use only 8 armor units, but changed my mind, and never corrected it. ============================== From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com Subject: Infantry Weapons >Today's mortars are indirect fire, HE weapons. They're pretty close to us HE isn't going to have much effect an anything but unarmored targets. >Since mortars have a minimum range, they're probably *unusable* in overruns. I would think that in the Ogreverse, mortars would fire some type of smart round. As for mortars having a minimum range, the US Navy has had direct fire mortars since the late 1960s. the mortars could be fired in either direct fire or indirect fire mode depending on the situation. The Navy used to mount them on river patrol boats for extra fire power. As I stated to Henry, mortar teams would still have standard infantry weapons, and several drones for self-defense at close range, so yes could still use their weapons during overruns. Just some additional info on current mortar tech. The US Army's 75th Ranger Regiment currently has 120 mm mortars mounted on a wheeled carriages. The guys assigned to the mortar section pull this suckers by hand after being air-dropped on to their target. During one exercise they hauled two of them close to 20 miles. The USMC is working on developing a robotic mortar system. Its mounted on a motorized cart with a n auto loader, and fired by remote control. ===== [There is a version of the Dragon Fire system that mounts in a LAV, which is a robotic weapon on top of a manned vehicle. http://www.global-defence.com/weapons/weapons1.htm -HJC] ===== From: White Rat Subject: Infantry Weapons > From: "Andrew Walters" > Today's mortars are indirect fire, HE weapons. They're pretty close > to us HE isn't going to have much effect an anything but unarmored > targets, The U.S. did test small nuclear rounds (Davey Crockett equivalent) for use in its heaviest, vehicle-mounted mortars. We have reason to believe the Soviet equivalent existed. > [Today's mortars wouldn't stand a chance against decent point > defenses, so whatever this weapon is it isn't the same as that. -HJC] This is my big objection to the mortars: We've got point-defense on these machines which is useful against incoming supersonic weapons. A ballistic weapon like a mortar-shell?!?! No chance. The fire-control computer for the point-defense weapon would be rolling on its side giggling. (HUUUUUUGE message from Servitor deleted) An absolutely wonderful report on game balance and on getting people involved in the game. Many thanks! Image of the kid Apache-dancing around the shattered OGREs will stay with me a while. *Chuckle* > Darren asks are Ogres realy AI? > I came up with the answer while playing a diferent game ( full Thrust) Any > AI would have to Be 100% rational something that no human is A 100% "Any AI would have to Be 100% rational..." Says who? I think the odds are much better that the first several hundred attempts to create self-aware systems will result in insane and unpredictable results rather than pretty little docile Star Trek-style computers. > eguipment that is ME!!" You would need something that would beable to > preform complex offten illogical actions and still be unaware of it's own > "mortality" A system that I call Artifial Stupidity Go one better. Check out the 'Berserker' series by Fred Saberhagen. Every Berserker had a 'strategic housing' where its upper-level command subroutines were run...And part of that was a weird reactor which allowed it to make random decisions based on particle-decay, so that it would not always choose the 'best (and most obvious) course' but would deliberately wildcard itself to keep opponents guessing. > From: patrick.odonnell@materna.de > Subject: Is Ogre Intelligence really "Artificial"? > > >... "If Ogre's became self-aware, why would they follow a human's > orders? What would be their incentive or motivation to remain the > harbingers of death and destruction that they are?" ... > > I think the mistake lies in the desire to re-make Ogres in our own image. > The problem, of course, is that Ogres are not human. When they *Wake-up* > (become self aware) they are still Ogres. They don't see a frail face of > flesh and bone in a mirror. Indeed, when they *Look Around* themselves and > *Take Stock* they become all too aware of offensive and defensive appendages > that have !>NOTHING this fact alone is enough to drive some into a form of madness (like > Frankenstein's Monster). Or, it makes it obvious to them that they are not > beings of peace and tranquility ... nor will they ever be. The best they can > hope for in terms of a noble existence is *To Protect and Serve* and that on > a field of decision. Limiting the OGRE's input would be another way of skewing things. You have consistently, all your life, been acclimated by the society around you towards certain values. You have the option of studying philosophy, religion, etc. An OGRE, built in a lab/factory, probably would NOT be permitted access to a lot of these ideas. It is 'born' as part of a military structure, and its awareness grows through playing wargames where the only morality is obedience to command and completion of assigned tasks regardless of losses. It is NOT exposed to Buddhism, Pacifism, etc., etc. until it has developed a 'personality' based on military doctrine, rooted in precepts of command, loyalty, and regimental pride. A good example of this can be found in one of the 'Bolo' novels by Keith Laumer, where a Bolo does something utterly outrageous, surpassing all expectations, and sacrificing itself utterly 'For the honor of the regiment.' When the OGRE goes active and goes out 'into the real world', it will be exposed to other concepts, but hopefully by this time the indoctrination will have hardened it to what it -must- do and what its responsibilities and world-views are, in the same fashion that indoctrination is used to make 'rational' human soldiers from deeply religious and occasionally pacifistic background 'stand and be still to the Birk'n'ead drill.' because their duty and role as soldiers is more important than their own individual lives. It's very interesting to consider what the PEF cyberneticists 'grooming' the OGREs for the Vatican Guard would teach them. I can just picture the end of a battle where a crippled heavy crew's jaws drop as this multi-megaton monster done up in scarred purple and gold grinds to a halt, one main battery levelled at them, and every speaker in their tank blares out at full volume 'Do you attest your belief in the one true God and in his son, Jesus Christ, who died that all self-aware entities' sins might be forgiven? Would any of you like to make confession? You have thirty seconds...' > From: Darren Breland > Subject: Guidance needed for tourny hosting > > Has anyone attended a good Ogre tournament lately? I've been running two-three a month on average. > If so, please relate your experience (good, bad, indifferent). My group is > thinking about sponsoring an Ogre tourney or at least an Ogre table in some > upcoming gatherings in the Washington DC area either this summer or fall. Pretty good, usually...At least from my perspective as the referee. > I would like to know what you guys/gals liked or disliked about > tourneys you have been to. If they allowed "house rules" or stuck to > the basics. If they allowed variant units. Were the scenarios home > grown or did they use the basic scenarios found in Official > literature? What were the prizes? How was it scored/judged? etc... I used a modified 'Free For All' scenario from the SJG page. No lasers, no CMCs, no OGREs. Prizes varied, with 1st prize usually being a boxed Mk V or a copy of the OGRE Book or OGRE Miniatures rules, 2nd prize usually being an OGRE poster, 3rd prize usually being a Shockwave, Reinforcements, or Battlefields pack. (Actually the way I handle this (and the reason for the 'usually') is that 1st place takes pick of the items, then 2nd place takes pick of what remains, and 3rd place gets what is leftover.) Scoring was by units destroyed vs. units lost, with bonuses for everone on a team which destroyed an enemy CP. I highly commend the 'Free For All' scenario writeup on the OGRE webpage at: www.sjgames.com/ogre/scenarios/freeforall.html ...To you for its ideas on this matter. I do not use the rules for Generals, as I am most often playing with a high proportion of new players and with very few experienced players. So far the results have been very good, I have never had anyone suggest they had a bad time, never failed to draw attention at cons (well, one exception where the con couldn't have hidden the gaming area better if it'd been housing a cloaking device, but even then the OGRE minis game was one of the more successful ones there...Over 50% of scheduled games Did Not Even Run for lack of players at this con. I had players all day...). > From: Darren Breland Ratty ============================== From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: Ogres Going Over The Top & Isaac Asimov Remember, the Ogre must have an algorithm for determining what is a valid command authority. Its commander could be eliminated, it must determine who its new commander is. A signal may come in claiming to be its new commander for some reason, it must check the validity of this statement. An order comes in: is it really from your commander? Cryptography can solve some of this, but that won't be the whole system. What happens when it breaks down? What happens when it doesn't deliver a clear answer? What happens when you get conflicting orders that evaluate to the same validity? Trying to spoof an enemy Ogre would not be easy, but its clear that both sides tried. It wouldn't be expensive, and the payoff could be huge, so of course it would be tried. Even if you only made an Ogre hesitate, it could save lives. So you get an extra Ogre brain or two and maybe a couple of hot-shot cryptologists with a set of radios and they get to work. They sample enemy signals, figure out what kinds of codes and protocols they're using, and jam them, spoof them, intercept them, anything. Everyone once in a while it will work. And when an Ogre gets confused about who's who, its still very smart tactically. So three laws, however well worded, won't prevent the occasional rogue Ogre. ===== [Bingo and what do you do when the OGRE starts spewing out garbage about "collateral damage"?] ===== From: "David R. Crowell" Subject: Ogres Going Over The Top & Isaac Asimov As regards the question of self-aware Ogres why should they suffer angst at the thought of ending their own existence? An Ogre existentialist might very well look at itself and come to the conclusion that it was endowed by its Creator with to be a living weapon, and that it's sole reason for existence was to destroy the enemy by any means possible or necessary. Nobility is attained through war. To an Ogre this not even Noble action it is the only action that would make sense. An Ogre that even asked the question "Why do we fight? Can't we grow flowers and have peace instead?" Would likely be judged dangerously (even incomprehensibly) insane by its fellows. Much as we view sociopaths and psychopaths among humans. Self-preservation likely arises out of the drive to reproduce and pass on ones genes (See "The Selfish Gene"). Ogres reproduce asexually in factories so their is no need to preserve the individual for reproduction, in fact if the ogre can download a copy of its computer core for upload into a new body it is effectively immortal, and protection of that core and the factory becomes more important than protection of the current body. The answer to the question why would a self-aware Ogre serve humans is because it suits the Ogre's purposes to do so. Ogres are made to be soldiers, soldiers follow orders from their comanders, that human is my comander so I will follow orders. Alternatively it may amuse the Ogre to follow human orders for a while, just as adults will sometimes let children order them around. It could also be that the Ogre would appear to obey human orders because it needs the humans to continue protecting its memory core and the factory it came from, or to reload its weapons and perform repairs so that it can continue to be an effective weapon. I think that Ogres would perform a much differnt calculus of values and morals than humans would. As I have possited the continued existance of an individual "self" might seem illusionary to an Ogre. Also this would be a life form with out the evolutionary drives that sexual reproduction and propogation of a genic code has programmed into all higher Terrestrial life. Self aware Ogres could be a truly frightening thing if their programers endow them with too many human emotions and motives, think about an Ogre with Anger, Lust, Covetousnes, Jelousy, Rage, Fear, etc. Or Ogres that have decided that biologial life is an unneccesary thing, or that existance of any conciousness in the universe is not of any intrinsic value.... ============================ From: "Andrew Walters" Subject: Guidance needed for tourny hosting Where are you, geographically? There may be more help nearby than you know... ============================== From: Darren Breland Subject: Militia > [Except for the "Road Bonus", Steve has consistently indicated a >half-hex per turn movement for Militia. Some of the other members of this >list suggested a full hex per turn. -HJC] More comments on the Militia unit type: < Pulls back with a large bat and takes aim at the dead horse.... > Terrain effects aside.... In Ogre Battlefields: "A militia unit can move one hex every other turn " In Ogre Minis: "Militia move 1" per turn." Ogre/GEV Scaling: 1" = 750 meters (minis) -or- 1 hex = 1500meters, Turn Length = 4 minutes With a move of 1" or 1 hex/2 turns that's still an 8.5 minute mile (7mph)... with full gear. A 6 minute mile is tough to do in prime fitness just running, with no gear. Those soldiers are in some superhuman physical shape. Obviously, there's some serious rethinking to be done on the Militia unit type. I can believe cybernetic brains in giant tanks, speeding ACV's, and PD so fast that it can blow-up incoming artillery shells. But I can't believe that a human being with no powered assistance, wearing a bulky CE suit, carrying the "most powerful hand weapon that unaugmented men can carry", can run, dodge, and fight at the speed of an unburdened athlete and sustain it throughout an entire battle. Call me crazy but I still think, per the written rules, Militia are unrealistic. If you were playing "Axis and Allies" and the US foot Infantry were allowed to move as fast as a Sherman tank, someone would cry "foul" because that's just plain silly. IMO the same is happening with Militia. Nothing changes the fact that an unassisted human can only carry "so much", "so fast" and "so far". Short of some genetic alteration, I don't see Militia being able to accomplish in reality what they accomplish in Ogre... even with good drugs. L8a, - D. ===== [If you want, you can slow down MIL even more. Say that they can only "recover" every third turn or vary the turns they can recover on by the terrain they are in. -HJC] ===== From: "Hunt, Kirk (Tucson)" Subject: Militia >From: Darren Breland >I suggest SOL for Soldier...not not "sh*t out of luck" >;)... to represent the units SJ describes as MIL. I hereby nominate SOL=Soldier to permanently replace MIL=Militia. (Wish I had thought of it.) M0.5, D1, Attack 1/1. SOL attack is doubled in an overrun. No grouping. no road bonus. Ogres and Inf attacks are x4 against SOL in an overrun. Unless SJ is willing to rebuild the game movement scale, SOL will have to use a "sprinting/panting" movement system. Each turn of movement (sprinting) MUST be followed by a turn of staying put (panting). (Minatures is easier...) SOL are "panting" when they dismount from a vehicle. I dislike the "automatic" kill idea for "D0". You still have to aim at and hit the target, which isn't all that easy under battlefield conditions. Note that each unit of SOL are destroyed (1-1) on a 3, 4, 5 or 6. (2-6 in an overrun.) All of these restrictions and penalties make SOL popcorn versus OGRE or armor. INF should plow through them as well. But they are capable of slowing or hurting things. SOL deployed in terrain will be dangerous, or at least inconvenient. Cat-with-Loud-Roar-Black-Fur-and-two-Cubs a.k.a. Desertcat Purveyor of Pulse Rifles "Hivlocs-R-Us" ===== From: Wrazor@aol.com Subject: Militia I keep reading everyone elses take on militia, so I will give you mine. I think of militia as being military personnel in support roles. Afterall, no matter what your position is (cook, procurement clerk, communications tech, mechanic, etc.) when the enemy is outside your door you are expected be a soldier. You weren't issued a power suit any more than a present day clerk is issued a machine gun, ammo, and a field pack. As for movement, I would tend to view them as largely stationary. You stay at your post and perform your assigned duties unless compelled to do otherwise. And in the scale of the game armor is probably going to blow past you faster than you can deal with them. Unless, of course, you are in the same vicinity as his objective. Then you are back to the enemy outside your door. Then the question is not can you move fast enough to intercept the enemy, but can you get to your D +1 (or defense doubled, or whatever) cover before he decides your worth shooting in the open. Therefore, I would have rules such: 1. Milia have move 0. 2. Militia do not combine attack or defense strength. 3. Before each enemy fire phase (overrun or nomal) each militia unit rolls to see if he got to cover yet. Once a unit makes cover it is free to stay there for the duration of the game and fire normally. This will probably make militia units worth less, but I think more realistic. You could conceivably give some defensive positions a heavier weapon to fire to offset the cost some. Perhaps, they would have to make a readiness roll determine if they can fire the weapon yet. I know these ideas add complexity to the game, but perhaps not as much as the "scurrying/cowering" rules or other ideas. Personally, I've never seen the need for militia units anyway. ============================== Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com Archives at http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2001, by Steve Jackson Games.