====== The Ogre Digest, November 2nd (Last: October 31st) ========
===== High Speed movment
From: dgallant@startech.com
===== The Ogre Design Formula
From: stephan beal
From: David Walend
===== Ogre Parts
From: "Henry J. Cobb"
==============================
From: dgallant@startech.com
Subject: High Speed movment
>> I always considered the speeds in the game to be the fastest
>> SURVIVABLE=20
>> speeds, and still be hard to hit/detect.....for instance, I=20
>> always figured=20
>> infantry COULD go much faster if needed.....it would just be=20
>> suicide for them=20
>> to do it in a combat zone.
How about this:
Full Speed Movemenet
Any unit, including Ogres, that have a base move of 1 or more can move
double the printed speed, however, as they are going full out and cannot
dodge/hide, they would be a much easier target to hit. Any unit fireing
at it would double their attack strength and double the effective range
of their attack. Road bonus is not doubled.
GEVs would only get a +1 bonus per movement phase, as they are already
moveing close to maximum. They would still get road bonus.
Each turn a unit is moving at full speed, and is not on a road (or
watter hex for GEV), it becomes disabled on a roll of 1. Also when ever
they have to roll for terain effects (e.g. stuck in swamps, etc.), the
unit has to roll twice.
Ogres lose 1 tread per extra hex of movement they take.
Spillover fire is based on the original attach strength, unless the
affected unit is also moveing at full speed. If a full speed vehice is
affected by spillover fire, the attach strength is based on the double
value (i.e they get a normal attack) and can be affected by X/XX
results.
Examples
A Heavy Tank, moveing at full speed, would have a move of 6 (M3 * 2).
The same tank on a road would have a move of 7 (M3 * 2 + 1).
A heavy tank firing at a full speed target would have an effective
attach strength of 8 and range of 4, against that target only.
Two heavy tanks in the same hex, one is moveing at full speed and the
other at normal speed, the attacker is a heavy tank. If the full speed
tank is the primary target, the full speed tank will take a strength 8
attack (A4 * 2), and the normal speed tank will suffer a strength 2
attach (A4 / 2). If the normal tank was the primary target, it would
suffer a strength 4 attack, and the full speed tank would also suffer a
strength attack (A4 * 2 / 2), and be subject to X/XX results like a
normal attack.
Daniel Gallant
==============================
From: stephan beal
Subject: The Ogre Design Formula
> From: "Henry J. Cobb"
> Somebody's posted a point formula that gives the Mark-IIIB a greater value
> than the Ninja.
http://byoo.rootonfire.org/?action=shortlist
i've got the Mk3b at 22 armor units, and the Ninja at 18. The formula used
is "the Cisco method" (which doesn't apply at all to non-Ogre units). It
almost certainly has flaws when used to calculate special units like Ninjas,
but it works quite well for standard Ogres, coming very close to the
originally-published values for the more standard Ogres.
The original formula is here:
http://cisco.rootonfire.org/
> The formula for an AP gun is:
>
> 1/3 * (2 + (1 + X/2*1.4)) + 2 * 1 * 1.8 * (2 + X/2*1.4)/3 = 3.4 + 1.08 * X
/me goes cross-eyed.
> If you like you can send me your designs for different Ogre weapon systems
> and I'll run a table rating the weight, cost and silliness of each.
http://byoo.rootonfire.org/?&action=ogre_editor
there are several debatable weapons/systems on that page. Also, the point
values may not match up with yours - again, it uses the Cisco point system
(because, frankly, i failed college algebra, and cannot follow yours past the
first few numbers).
:)
----- stephan
Generic Universal Computer Guy
stephan@einsurance.de - http://www.einsurance.de
Office: +49 (89) 552 92 862 Handy: +49 (179) 211 97 67
"As death comes, despite our looking for it, so should be life."
=====
From: David Walend
Subject: The Ogre Design Formula
Henry J. Cobb wrote:
>OK, I didn't want to release it yet, but here's how to apply the point
>formula for Ogres.
I know it's not done yet but I've got a few newbie questions already:
>
>Let's start with the Mark I.
>
>The formula for the Main Battery is:
> 4 * (6 + (1 + X/2 * 1.4)) + 2 * 4 * 1.8 * (6 + X/2 * 1.4) = 114.4 + 12.9 * X
>
>Where X is the movement rate of the Ogre in inches.
>
>The formula for an AP gun is:
>
> 1/3 * (2 + (1 + X/2*1.4)) + 2 * 1 * 1.8 * (2 + X/2*1.4)/3 = 3.4 + 1.08 * X
>
Is this
damage * target limit factor * (range + (doubling in overruns +
speed*movement factor /2))
+ 2 * defense * 1.8 * (range + speed*movement factor/2) = load for the
weapon ?
Is the 1.8 for Ogres only taking damage from X's ? (That gives me an
idea for how to run a Dragon...)
[Yes, see the Y2K Ogre Book, page 108. -HJC]
Any factor for immunity to spill over attacks?
[That's factored into the 1.8. -HJC]
>This assigns a weight to the AP gun that is a twelveth the weight of a Main
>Battery and GURPS Ogre says that the weight difference is 34, but it
>doesn't give the weight for the turrets.
Hand waving: It could be surface area used, instead of weight. The
surface area determines how much armor you have to glue on to get the
same protection. You really notice this effect if you try to build
something using GURPS Vehicles.
>But the Mark I has an additional weapon! It can ram for one die of damage,
>once per overrun. This I count as a one-shot weapon, due to the self
>damage and all, but the equivalent attack strength to average that amount
>of damage is 10.
>
>So the value of the ram is:
>10 * (X/2 * 1.4) + 2 * 3 * 1.8 * (X/2 * 1.4) or 14.56 * X.
>
(dice damage done * 3.5 average role * 3 for a one-in-three chance to
damage treads) * (speed/2 * movement factor)
+ 2 * 3 * 1.8 * (speed/2 * movement factor) = load factor of ramming.
>So each movement point for the Mark I has a total value of 14.56 plus 17.22
>or 31.78 or about 0.88 VP per tread.
>
(Here I start to get lost.) So you're dividing the factor that depends
on movement by 36. Is that 36 from tread count * 2? Or speed * 6 ?
[This is their average value. When the treads are half destroyed the
value of each tread is halved because it doesn't take you as far anymore.
So this is 31.78 divided by two and then divided over 18 treads.
Note that if you had six Secondary Batteries and lost three of them the
remainder could still fire with their full range but treads don't work that
way. -HJC]
>(Rather than carrying over the
>slightly changing value for each tread depending on the year of production
>and hence the load it can carry in that year I shall simply set the value
>of each tread as being 1 VP and let load factors limit the year of
>production.)
>
>So the total cost of the Mark I is:
>Main Battery: 10 VPs
>Four APs: 1 VP
>18 treads: 18 VPs
>
>For a total value of 29 VPs or about five armor units.
>
Any adjustment for vulnerability to critical hits? Or does it just not
come up?
[Critical Hits seem to be slightly less useful on average than
blowing away each part one by one. I'll do a detailed calculation later to
see if I can spot any Ogres that are unusually weak against crits. -HJC]
>To derive the speed factor of an Ogre we need the total weight divided by
>the total power.
>
>Item cost weight Hardpoints
Do you use the hard point numbers and LPHP for anything?
[Not using Hardpoints yet, but I intend to work them in when I feel
good enough about the numbers to show hull type tables with max treads,
year in service, ram damage, critical hit modifier and available
hardpoints. -HJC]
>One tread 1 1 -
>Four APs 1 4 1
>Secondary 6 9 1
>Main 10 12 1
>Ogre Missile 3 1 -
>Empty Tube 2 3 0.5
>Empty Rack 6 9 1
I think I've got weight figured out. It's the factor multiplied by speed
in the load formula, rounded down, right?
[Yeah. -HJC]
Are the cost numbers from dividing the constant in the load formula by
12? Or is it just from experience? (Did I just miss it?) In your
experience, are the GEV rules that far off on the point value of AP and
missiles? (How about the main battery at 10 instead of 8? A main battery
is a wonderful thing.)
[The Weight values are from the part in the weapon formula that varies
with X and the Cost values are the rest of the formula other than the X
part.
So a Main Battery has a cost of 4 * (6 + 1) + 2 * 4 * 1.8 * (6) = 114.4
divided by 12 (to convert into VPs) gives 10 VPs.
And its weight is 4 * (1/2 * 1.4) + 2 * 4 * 1.8 * (1/2 * 1.4) = 12.9
(Rounded down because the cost was rounded up, this wiggles a little bit
for game balance between the two.)
But my (armor unit derived) formula is fairly clear that the cost ratio
between a Main Battery and an AP gun is much greater than eight to one. -HJC]
>If you like you can send me your designs for different Ogre weapon systems
>and I'll run a table rating the weight, cost and silliness of each.
(Here I show my cardboard habbit.) How about starting with other weapons
in the game, mounted on Ogres? The superheavy's gun in a secondary mount
(3/3; D3 ?) and the missile tank's rack (3/4 D2 ?) seem to be most
popular. A Mark III that uses its missiles, looses its main gun and
slows to movement 2 can be nibbled to death by an LGEV.
Thanks for putting this together for us, Henry.
Forrest
=====
[Here you go, enjoy.
I'm still looking for silly weapons. (As long as they're not too
silly...) And will probably put together a silly version of the Javascript
spreadsheet to include all the silly weapons. -HJC]
==============================
From: "Henry J. Cobb"
Subject: Ogre Parts
Known Items cost weight Hardpoints
One tread 1 1 -
Four APs 1 4 1
Secondary 6 9 1
Main 10 12 1
Missile 3 1 -
Empty Tube 2 3 0.5
Empty Rack 6 9 1
Fast Tread
Cost: 1.5 VPs Weight: 1.1 Silliness: 3
These are required for any Ogre with a starting speed of nine or ten inches.
The movement progression for a ten inch ogre is: 6/4, 6/3, 5/3, 5/2, 5/1,
4/1, 4, 3, 2 and 1 with the number after the slash being the second movement
phase. (Speed nine ogres lack the 6/4 movement but are otherwise the
same.) Note that the treads alone put a load factor of 11.0 on a speed ten
inch Ogre.
Mini Missile Bay
Attack: 3 Range: 8 inches Defense: 2
Cost: 6 VPs Weight: 6 Hardpoints: 1 Silliness: 2
Includes six shots. May fire once per turn. Missiles are destroyed with
the bay and are not usable by other bays or doubled in overruns. (I.e.,
it's a cheap conversion of the Missile Tank missiles in a mini missile rack
and in all other aspects counts as a Missile Tank attack.)
As you can see by these restrictions, having a brilliant tank fire stupid
missiles isn't very impressive, which lead to the development of the
Rattler and its kin.
Vertical Launch Missile Array (per shot)
Attack: 3 Range: 8 inches Defense: 1
Cost: 2 VPs Weight: 2 Hardpoints: 0.5 Silliness: 2
Exactly like the above, but with only a single shot.
It is assumed that any Ogre equipped with this weapon would have an array
of them covering the top of its aft hull with thin armor plates between the
missiles and armored doors that fall away when each missile is launched.
Note that the density of the VLMA is very low and it really should only be
seen on Ogres with lots of hardpoints and very few load factors.
Logisticaly the mini-missiles should be very easy to supply as they're used
by lots of other vehicles such as Missile Tanks and Howitzers.
Mobile Howitzer Gun
Attack: 6 Range: 12 inches Defense: 3
Cost: 17 VPs Weight: 12 Hardpoints: 2 Silliness: 3
Well, why not mount the same weapon as the MHWZ, eh?
Not doubled in overruns (dumb missiles), but can fire every overrun fire
round (high rate of fire) until it's used up its six total shots. (Does not
include the ability to share ammo with other weapons.)
Mini Missile Magazine
Cost: 2 VPs Weight: 2 Hardpoints: ZERO Silliness: 3
This holds six missile reloads and has the ability to transfer two reloads a
turn either to or from any MMB or MHG on the Ogre. (MHG shots count as two
reloads each, MMB shots count as one reload each.) Note that this is an
internal system and is only destroyed when the entire Ogre goes.
Hundred Long
Attack: 2 Range: 6 inches Defense: 2
Cost: 5 VPs Weight: 6 Hardpoints: 1 Silliness: 1
How come the 100 MB Long Barrel Gun is listed in Gurps Ogre if nothing ever
uses it? Standard gun, doubled in overruns, essentially unlimited ammo,
etc. Please note that replacing each Main Battery with two Hundred Longs
would double the hardpoints used and open the Ogre up to easier attack by
infantry and LGEVs.
Light Battery by Brian Bell
Attack: 1 Range: 4 inches Defense: 1
Cost: 2 VPs Weight: 3 Hardpoints: 0.5 Silliness: 1
Brian Bell suggested that LGEV guns might replace pairs of AP guns on the
Mark-I. In spite of being "borrowed" from standard armor, this gun is
directed by an Ogre brain and is treated as a standard (if small) ogre
gun in all respects.
Replacing 4 APs with 2 Light Batteries would increase the cost of a Mark-I
by 3 (to 32 VPs) and the total load by 2, giving it a load ratio slightly
less than the Mark-II.
Long Range Secondary Batteries as found on Nihon Cybertanks
Attack: 3 Range: 6 inches Defense: 3
Cost: 8 VPs Weight: 9 Hardpoints: 1 Silliness: 1
The extra cost here comes from using smarter rocket assisted rounds or
other such handwaving.
Superwire Anti-Personnel Gun (Nihon only, sorry)
Attack: 1 AP Range: 4 inches Defense: 1
Cost: 0.5 VPs Weight: 1 Hardpoints: 0.25 Silliness: 1
In addition to their extended range these weapons have tripled (instead of
doubled) attack strength in overruns, but are otherwise standard AP guns.
I don't know what Steve intended these to be like, so I made something up.
Note that they are the same weight and size as Combine AP guns, but are
twice as expensive.
So now for an Example Unit, the Nihon Oni.
(Going by the clues in GURPS Ogre).
2 Main Batteries, 4 Long Range Secondary Batteries, Missile Rack, four
internal missiles and 8 Superwire AP. Seven inches of movement at seven
treads per inch yields 49 total treads.
Total cost is 123 VPs, total load is 130 for a ratio of 18.57 which is
smaller, slower and lighter than the Mark-IV, but unfortunately it's got
a Missile Rack a decade before the French invented them. (This time
paradox I will call the French Oni Dip.)
And mounting a single Missile Rack on any Ogre is a bit silly, so let's find
something better to do with those 13 load factors, eh? How about two Mini
Missile Bays instead? The weight comes down one factor and the cost
decreases by six VPs, but the flexibility increases and it's able to bring
three times as many targets under missile fire (At lesser odds, but with a
total non-overrun missile strength that's one and half times larger) and with
exactly the same number of hardpoints in the same locations as those stolen
Mark-IIIB plans. (Assuming they weren't able to steal Rattler plans at the
same time or didn't want to wait to deploy the cybertank before they'd
built up a supply system for the missiles.)
And other example: Zippy
4 Fast threads per inch times 10 inches at a power ratio of 20 leaves 36
load factors for weapons, 4 AP, 4 Hundred Longs and a Mini-Missile Bay.
Total cost is 87 VPs with six hardpoints.
Zippy (Is this really worth fourteen and a half armor units?)
1 MMB (3/8", D2, six shots)
4 HL (2/6", D2)
4 AP (1/2", D1, infantry and D0 only)
Move 6"/4", 4 treads:
Move 6"/3", 4 treads:
Move 5"/3", 4 treads:
Move 5"/2", 4 treads:
Move 5"/1", 4 treads:
Move 4"/1", 4 treads:
Move 4", 4 treads:
Move 3", 4 treads:
Move 2", 4 treads:
Move 1", 4 treads:
And finally: Agincourt
Two Main Batteries and 8 AP for local defense plus 4 MHG and 8 MMM for long
range bombardment is a total of 96 load factors at a power ration of 20
(popular number that) and a move of six inches requires seven treads per
inch at a total cost of 148 VPs or almost 25 armor units. (Note that the
load factor would be less than the Mark V's if built on a 60 tread hull, but
I think the Combine would rather have built the Mark-V as a raider rather
than as a support unit. But then it isn't really any faster than its
infantry screen...)
Agincourt
4 MHG(6/12", D3, 12 ammo each at 2 ammo per shot)
8 MMM(48 total ammo, may transfer a total of 16 ammo per turn)
2 MB(4/6", D4)
8 AP(1/2", D1, Inf or D0)
Move 6", 7 treads:
Move 5", 7 treads:
Move 4", 7 treads:
Move 3", 7 treads:
Move 2", 7 treads:
Move 1", 7 treads:
==============================
Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com Archives at http://www.io.com/~hcobb
All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2001, by Steve Jackson Games.