====== The Ogre Digest, November 8th (Last: November 7th) ======== ===== Bring out your Cubs From: David Morse From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com ===== Heavy weapons infantry From: "Herb Diehr" ===== Ogre Missile Backblast From: stephan beal ===== Cash and Carry Infantry From: David Morse ============================== From: David Morse Subject: Bring out your Cubs > From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com > << I agree that the Cub ought to be limited in numbers, but would the one > shot per turn, total of six shots limit make it balanced at 9 VPs? -HJC] >> > > Nope. Limited shots means one-shot. Most units will be lucky to get > 2-3 against an opponent who is concerned about them. Would you accept > such a reduction in cost to a HWTZ that had only 6 shots? I would take > it in a heart beat... > > Ad Astra! > Stan Leghorn I agree Stan's, that a unit that's fired 6 times has usually paid for itself. Still, from my Recon in Force experience, I anted a few units (well, mostly just HWI ammo) to create a hole. Once I was through, my cheesemobiles sat around patrolling for enemy units, while my GEVs and regular Inf did the dirty work of blowing up everything. We could have gone home a few turns sooner if we didn't have to worry about ammo on the Cheesemobiles. Still, Henry overall has me convinced that 9 vp isn't too terribly low a price for Cub. Unfortunately, I'm a compuslive email argue-er. Sorry for that. > Let us compare two mildly comparable units. > > The LHWTZ (A 3/7, D 1, M0, 6 VPs) against the Cub. The LHWTZ has the > same attack strength and about the same reach, but it's immobile and has > half the defense so it's a steal for two-thirds of the Cub's cost and has > none of the overrun limitations I've suggested above. I can think of two reasons I'd still want the Cub. First the LHWTZ option completely surrenders the initiative. Second, although the LHWTZ protects items in a two hex radius from direct attack, the Cub can attack every other hex on the map without fear of LHWTZ reprisal. > But you say, the Cub changes the game radically, you just don't know > how to deal with it. > > OK, may I suggest that you might want to read the story that introduced > the Cub for some ideas? Yes, the Cub gave a lone GEV lots of problems, but > then it caught an Ogre Missile flyball and it was game over. The Ogre > Missile has one to two hexes of reach advantage on the Cub, gets a 3-1 and > loves to seek out and munch on high value targets. 16.7 cubs might not be able to take out a Mark V, but all they have to do is knock out the mains and suck the missiles, as secondaries can't touch em. Actually, given unlimited ammo, they will always win, but they'll have to give up dozens of hexes of ground in the process. If the Cubs get limited to only 6 shots apiece, then they'll knock off the MBs and slow the Ogre down to 2 hexes/turn, then run out of ammo and pray there's one normal GEV in the area to finish the job. In any case Cubs are faster than the Ogre, so they have the right to refuse combat, and there's more of them, so they can weasel past him and hit em where he aint. --Dave ============================== From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com Subject: Bring out your Cubs << But you say, the Cub changes the game radically, you just don't know how to deal with it. >> That is NOT what I said. The GEV-MSL is too good a unit even for the double cost. How often do MSL tanks get a second shot against an OGRE? Unless the Ogre is speed 1, it can bring the secondaries to bear on the MSL, but not the GEV-MSL. External OGRE missiles are high value items, while the missile racks are TOP priority targets... ============================== From: "Herb Diehr" Subject: Heavy weapons infantry All this talk about heavy weapon infantry is interesting, to me. Our local group has a couple of rules which make things a bit easier. 1. Infantry stay as platoons until within one hex of an enemy unit. 2. Heavy weapons infantry may only be one squad per platoon. This way, there aren't too many of them and they cannot clump together. Herb Diehr The Diehr Wolf ===== [I do not like to restrict the players as to how they arrange their units once they get to the battlefield. But I do have an alternative that should cut the cheese out of using Heavy Weapons Infantry. In Gurps Ogre a volley of Missile Tank missiles weighs as much as a squad of battlesuits, and if the Heavy Weapons teams carried smaller missiles that worked as well then why wouldn't the Missile Tank use them? In Gurps you can design really nice nuclear missiles in the 30 to 50 pound range so why not outfit one trooper with a launcher and one missile and have the rest of his buddies in the squad carry three missiles and a sidearm. (These are smaller, less effective missiles than the Missile Tank kind) So the squad has enough ammo that you don't need to record it, at the cost of some flexibility. The stats for this Heavy Weapons squad are Atk: 1/3 hexes, Move: 2 hexes, Def: 1, cost: 4VPs with the restriction that their attack strength is not doubled in overruns due to rate of fire and weapons concerns. These combine up to the platoon level at Atk: 3/3 hexes, Move: 2 hexes, Def: 3, cost 12 VPs. Note that they have unlimited ammo at a three hex radius but cost twice as much as regular infantry. (Pay for the change at 1/3rd of an armor unit per squad please...) So, if you mount these guys on the GEV-PC you get a weapon with the same strike radius as the ordinary GEV, but with less overrun threat than a GEV-PC loaded with regular infantry. Now, once you've got these light, shorter-range missiles, why not put a repeating launcher on a GEV platform, like: Missile GEV, Atk: 2/3 hexes, Move: 3/2 hexes, Def: 2, cost: 6 VPs. And take care of the "Cub" problem too? -HJC] ============================== From: stephan beal Subject: Ogre Missile Backblast > From: stephan beal > errr... why not doubled? i don't remember ever seeing a rule saying Ogre > missiles aren't doubled in an overrun (but also never seen minis). > They way i calculate it, ATT6 (halved, not doubled) vs DEF4 == 1-2. i only > see 1-1 odds if you do double the msl ATT: (6x2 / 2) vs 4 == 6:4 == 1:1. > [Wow, you play with D4 Heavies? (I bet Missile Tanks have a hard time > in your games. ;-) oh, duh! i'm thinking old SHVYs. ----- stephan Generic Universal Computer Guy stephan@einsurance.de - http://www.einsurance.de Office: +49 (89)  552 92 862 Handy:  +49 (179) 211 97 67 "As death comes, despite our looking for it, so should be life." ============================== From: David Morse Subject: Cash and Carry Infantry > [The hard-cash rule seems to be saying that either the cost of infantry > is greatly inflated or people just ain't using them right. In pure ogre their cost is greatly inflated. In GEV, I admit, I don't have the secret technique that makes an infantry-3 worth a full armor unit. In Raid, I mostly sit in the cities, and when the raiding GEVs swing by, I duck and pray. If I live, I threaten overruns so they can't park nearby. I only leave the protection of the city if I get an overrun opportunity, or there's a decent chance no GEVs will survive to strike back at me. I estimate that this behavior ties up 8 GEV-turns per infantry-3, as they slowly nuke me to destruction. I always get the town destroyed, plus the infantry-3 as well, that means 14 vp for tying up almost half the attackers for about two turns. Is it worth it? Well, I usually loose as the Raid defense. So, uh, in short, am I not using my infantry right? Why can't they be more straightforward to use at their full potential? The Heavy Tank doesn't seem to have a complicated user's manual: Drive to range two. Blow enemies face off. Repeat until you get killed. Maybe somebody should write an article about how to handle infantry better. It should look at the 4 classic GEV scenarios. For bonus points, show how to use the (HW-Infless) GEV-PC at 6 vp. > So everybody, please name one scenario where you would not gladly trade > in all your infantry at a conversion rate of one VP of armor per squad, eh? > (From the GEV or Ogre rulebooks only please...) Well, I'd do it in all of them. I don't know if I'd be glad. > (Given this pricetag, I'd say that Sol: 1/2 VP, Inf: 1 VP, Mar: 2 VP, militia?----^^^ > HW: 3 VP, Eng: 4 VP would be about right. If that's the best you can do > with your infantry, but expect to see me take a LOT of Light and Heavy > Tanks and tons of GEV-PCs at these prices, assuming the shoot and scoot > rules ain't changed.) Question time: Suppose you get to spend 150 vp on infantry and armor at the above prices, for a ceasefire collapse game. How many squads of infantry do you take? Okay, now same deal but you pay book price on infantry. How many? > The ultimate cheesy move for the Micemen (Minutemen (heck, they got > nuclear missiles!) on Chesemobiles) is to volley off the missiles and then > retreat to a town/road or woods/road hex afterwards. If the foe chases > down the GEV-PC the shot will bounce off the platoon in cover which will > then jump out and nail them and it takes a great deal of firepower to > finish off a platoon in the woods. -HJC] Or missile three heavies. Probably kill one, miss one, and disable one. Now overrun the missed one in the second move, which should kill it at the cost of the GEV-PC. ============================== [I'm heading back to Nihon occupied North California, so assuming that Paneuropean Liberation Force activists don't divert my flight, the next time you hear from me I'll be back over there. Otherwise, Steve will have to redirect the ogre@sjgames.com address to some survivor. -HJC] Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com Archives at http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2001, by Steve Jackson Games.