====== Ogre Digest, April 18th (Last: April 14th) ======== ===== Killing tailgaters From: Nyrath the nearly wise ===== Another list of new vehicles. From: "Grant A. Ladue" From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com ===== New Nihon "Steel Warriors" From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com ============================== From: Nyrath the nearly wise Subject: Killing tailgaters In the old OGRE computer program, the AI was stupid enough that it couldn't handle the old "tailgater" ploy. That is, if you got your armored units *behind* the Ogre, you could move in close, shoot, and the Ogre AI would blindly go running to the CP, which would make your armored units out of the Ogre's weapon range (very similar to GEV strategy). Repeat until the Ogre dies. Now, as a human being playing the Ogre: under what circumstances do you stop your run to the CP in order to swat those pesky tailgaters? I'm trying to fix the AI. ===== [So you are writing a new game for your own personal enjoyment based on your experience with the old offical PC game and have no intention of sharing it with anybody, correct? -HJC] ============================== From: "Grant A. Ladue" Subject: Another list of new vehicles. > From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com > > Henry, > > I'm attaching a web page of variant Israeli units. If you don't mind > posting them > > New Vehicles and Variant Weapons Systems For Use With OGRE & G.E.V. > Part II > > Israeli Units > > > Running parallel to the development of the Light Ogre > Missile, was a program to develop new missile weapons systems for Ogres. > Short Range Missile Launcher-(SRML): Short Range Missile > Launchers (SRML) are modified versions of the missile launchers used on Light > Missile Tanks, that have been adapted for use on an OGRE. They have an attack > strength of 2, a range of 3 (6"), a defense of 2, and are worth 4 Victory > Points. > > Long Range Missile Launcher-(LRML): > > Long Range Missile Launchers (SRML) are modified versions of the missile > launchers used on Missile Tanks, that have been adapted for use on an > OGRE. They have an attack streng th of 3, a range of 4 (8"), a defense of > 3, and are worth 6 Victory Points. > I like the other weapons systems (especially the light Ogre missiles), but I always have problems with Ogre-Missile-Tank systems. If it was possible for Israel to develop this kind of system, then surely the Combine/PE/Nihon could have managed it. It's sufficiently powerful that they would have employed such a system if they could have, especially on the larger/later Ogres. They really need some kind of handicap that explains why noone else used them. Why not give them a defense of 1? The explanation can be that the large number of "missile tubes" in close proximity were impossible to armor above a defense of 1, and that flaw was sufficient to keep these systems off of the major power's Ogres. The Israeli's were in need of as much offense as possible on a limited number of Ogres, so they employed these despite their flaws. This is the kind of explanation I like to employ for variant Ogre's, but these are just fine as is if you're not into "historical context" like I am. :-) > > These units should in no way be considered "official" and are presented > here for your enjoyment. Ogre and GEV are registered trademarks of Steve > Jackson Games, Inc. > > ===== > > [After conquering the Middle East, how will the Israelis survive suicide > bombers with nukes? After all, all the Lebensraum in the world isn't going > to do you much good if it glows in the dark. > > And if the detection gear will be good enough to spot the bombs far > away enough, why won't it be used on the battlefield? -HJC] > Who says it won't? It's probably a key component of the threat detection systems on every unit. That's why you need to be very fast, and low to the ground to get an attack in on a unit. They must have solved the suicide nuke problem or else the whole war as postulated doesn't happen. Why slug it out with Ogres when you can suitcase nuke the enemy to death? grant ===== From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com Subject: Another list of new vehicles and other stuff. >>After conquering the Middle East, how will the Israelis survive suicide >>bombers with nukes? I prefer to keep much of the real world's politics out of my gaming, but I figure they may have a suicide bombing with a nuke, once, just once, and then the Israeli's would cut loose with everything they had on anyone they suspected of supporting a terrorist. Most of the governments are willing to fight to the last man, as long as they don't stand a chance of being harmed themselves. The minute there's a possibility of the Israeli's coming after them, they back off. I posted this on the SJG Ogre msg board, and thought I'd post it here also. Gentlemen (ladies?), I know you guys already have a full plate, but here are a few ideas for the next books in the Ogre series: 1) The Ogre Recognition Manual - It would contain record sheets for all of the Ogres currently available in the "Ogreverse" to include the Vulcan, the Israeli Golem, the Golith "suicide" Ogre, The Mark VII, the Oni & Samuri, the original Mark II (for those that want to use it), and the (4) SB Fencer (yes it's no longer official, but it's still fun to play with. It would also contain rules for the drones carried by the Golem, and the extended range Nihon Secondary Batteries. It would also contain counter sheets for all of the Ogres. 2) The Ogre Combat Vehicle Recognition Guide. It would contain pictures of the various units used by the major powers in Ogre (i.e., Combine, PE, Nihon), sort of like the Car Wars AADA Vehicle Guides. It would also contain counter sheets for units not currently available (Light Howitzers, Radar Dishes, Jam Screens). 3) An Ogre vehicle design contest. Vehicles designs would be submitted to the staff int he same fashion as the previous Ogre contests. The staff would select the 10-15 contenders, with the top 5-7 vehicles (which would be determined by voting) being included into a new Ogre expansion pack. It would have counter sheets for the new units and several scenarios that make use of the vehicles. 4) An Ogre design contest. You all have stated several times that there were experimental Ogres developed, not to mention the fact that I'm sure some of the minor powers (India, Australia, etc.) built, purchased, captured, or stole Ogre tech, and I don't know of a single military that does not tinker with or modify vehicles and weapons in their inventory. How about a contest to design new Ogres? The Winners would become "official" units in the "Ogreverse." Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. ===== [I am so sorry to hear that I may have offended anybody. I thought everybody realized this is just a game. Surely nuclear weapons will never again be used and computers will stop getting faster any day now and so there won't be any demand for additional robotic weapon systems and after all there's not going to be any more wars to use them in anyway. So the fall of man will never happen and everybody will together in peace happily ever after. Right? -HJC] ============================== From: Charles Barnett Re: Please help me balance my Ogre scenario! >My question is: what are the three numbers for >Mk I, Mk II, Mk IIIB, Mk IV, Mk VI, Fencer, Ninja, Doppelsoldner, >and Ogrethulhu? >I've done some calculating myself, but I am unsure of my figures. >Surely somebody else has done this! I don't think so, and now that you mention it, I'm surpised at that. Well, I don't see an analytical way of balancing your new matchups. Your extrapolations are good starting points, but the only real way to balance these is to playtest. But you knew that, I'm sure. To make your head spin more, consider some other canonical kill-the-CP setups: Mk III plus armor defends against Mk V: attacker=150vp defender=202vp 2x Mk III attack reinforced advanced defense: attacker=200vp defender=196vp Mk III plus 1/2 basic defense defends against basic defense: attacker=112vp defender=156vp Mk V plus 1/2 advanced defense defends against advanced defense: attacker=180vp defender=240vp The Day Before (Shockwave): attacker=390vp defender=240vp I suspect that even for your 'kill the single monster with virtuous manned units' setups, the 1.2 defense multiplier will not work for Ogres larger than Mk V. Either the defender will have traffic jams, or will buy superheavies to avoid such and thus present the Ogre with juicier targets. An anti-fuzzy-wuzzy problem. For Ogres IIIB and smaller, it seems more likely to work. For the rack-oriented cybers, I dunno. They're just plain different threats. I'll have to try some of these. Thanks. Charles ============================== From: Sumnerd1234@cs.com Subject: New Nihon "Steel Warriors" OK, it seems I had another sleepless night this weekend, and came up with the following. Any input would be useful. Nihon "Steel Warrior" cyber-tanks Nihon "Hachiman" cyber-tank 2 Missile Racks (D4) 00 10 Missiles (6/5) 00000 00000 2 Main Battery (4/3; D4) 00 4 Secondary Battery (2/3; D3) 0000 8 Antipersonnel (1/1 against infantry or D0 CP only; D1) 00000000 60 Tread units: Movements starts at M4 00000 00000 00000 (movement drops to M3) 00000 00000 00000 (movement drops to M2) 00000 00000 00000 (movement drops to M1) 00000 00000 00000 (movement drops to M0) Nihon "Daimyo" 3 Missile Racks (D4) 000 15 Missiles (6/5) 00000 00000 2 Main Battery (4/3; D4) 00 6 Secondary Battery (2/3; D3) 000000 12 Antipersonnel (1/1 against infantry or D0 CP only; D1) 0000 0000 0000 60 Tread units: Movements starts at M3 00000 00000 00000 00000 (movement drops to M2) 00000 00000 00000 00000 (movement drops to M1) 00000 00000 00000 00000 (movement drops to M0) Nihon "Shogun" 4 Missile Racks (D4) 000 16 Missiles (6/5) 0000 0000 0000 0000 2 Main Battery (4/3; D4) 00 8 Secondary Battery (2/3; D3) 0000 0000 16 Antipersonnel (1/1 against infantry or D0 CP only; D1) 0000 0000 0000 0000 75 Tread units: Movements starts at M3 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 (movement drops to M2) 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 (movement drops to M1) 00000 00000 00000 00000 00000 (movement drops to M0) ============================== List Moderator: Henry J. 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