====== OGRE Digest, April 7th, 2003 (Last: April 5th) ======== ===== mines for hexes From: David Morse ===== Mk VI cost From: "Chris French" ===== Strategic Ogre From: David Morse ===== Re: OGRE/G.E,V question From: David Morse ===== Lizards and Ogres From: "Chris French" From: reaper28i ===== History of PanEuropean Missile Tanks From: "Chris French" ===== Ogre Mk. VI scenarios From: "Paul Chapman" ============================== From: David Morse Subject: mines for hexes > From: "Chris French" > Umm, why not just assign minefields an Attack value, like > everything else? That was my first reaction too, but in all the mine rules published to date armor doesn't help against mines. ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Mk VI cost > From: David Morse > Huh? Are you talking about MkIII+MkV vs MkVI? Yup. Or whichever units were used to demonstrate the Mk. 6's "inefficiency". Half of any OGRE's armament is useless against armored targets, yet those points are still there when figuring out what constitutes a "fair fight". Has anyone tried playing an OGRE where the teritary battery (the APs) are effective vs. armor? > From a game mechanics standpoint, Ogres are more like stacks of > independantly destructible armor units that have to travel together, > than like a single unit. True. "10,000 Parts Flying In Formation". > For that reason I think it is valid to do additive comparisons, but keep > in mind there are some circumstances where it pays to split forces. Splitting forces isn't the issue -- it's the fact that while the Mk. 6 looks like it has more firepower, most of its guns DO NOT WORK AGAINST ANYTHING BESIDES INFANTRY! Thus, comparing OGREs at their full pt. values in armor-only fights is invalid. > [If you kill the treads on just one of those twin Ogres, you've taken > its guns out of the fight. -HJC] Not true. The other OGRE parks under the guns of the cripple, forcing the single OGRE to engage. (In a "Kill The CP" game, whacking treads is a good idea; otherwise, forget it.) ============================== From: David Morse Subject: Strategic Ogre > From: "Chris French" >>From: David Morse >>IMO, in the Ogreverse AIs are too expensive, or else they would build >>LGEVs with Ogre AIs. > > The "regular" armor and INF don't need full-blown AIs -- drone- > quality intelligence (?) will suffice. Because of the rules for disabled armor, we already know how well autonomous non-ai units fight: no ranged attack, no movement, and half attack strength in overrun relative to human-crewed. >>I think the history of technology is /not/ one of exponential growth. >>Its one of punctuated equilibrium. Look at the history of aviation. >>1900: hot air balloons. 1945: DC-3. 1983: 747 and space shuttle. >>2003: 747 and space shuttle. Aviation innovation ain't what it used to >>be. > > The current pause is a result of human inadequacies: Well, we can quibble about whether or not there's been a end to the exponential tech improvements in this-or-that field, but the point is, Ogre is a sci-fi game, and if it wants to project and end to Moore's law sometime in the next 40 years that's certainly possible. Its not a foregone conclusion that computers will get twice as good every year till the end of time. > [If you kill the treads on just one of those twin Ogres, you've taken > its guns out of the fight. -HJC] Yeah but you could spend 135 points of attack to take a Mark IIIs treads out, or 48 points to take its guns out. With GEV overrun rules and the two defenders stacked, which ya gonna choose? :) ===== [Back off a bit and bring a CMC up. -HJC] ============================== From: David Morse Subject: Re: OGRE/G.E,V question For the record I had seen a game where it mattered and the town was rubbled prior to destruction! Next time there's a counter run, some "destroyed" and "road cut" counters would be handy. ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Lizards and Ogres > [I got your Godzilla right here: > http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/articles/pyramid/godzilla.html [sigh] I found that right after I posted this. Now if they'll just publish the firk-ding-blasting Ogrethulhu rules.... >:( > 747s have improved in the past three decades. Their relative operating > costs are much lower now. http://sq006.netfirms.com/history.html -HJC] That's true, but it still takes most of a day to get to Tokyo Disneyland. :) (Assuming the Baron von Lungchunks sitting next to you doesn't end up killing you....) ===== From: reaper28i Subject: Lizards and Ogres Hello again Henry, I loved the article on Godzilla in the OGREverse. Now tabletop battles could get really silly -you could have Godzuki turn up, or maybe Godzilla "adopts a Mk.1 or II Ogre as Godzuki? A nasty alien race tries to conquer Earth. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Godzilla's attitude "nothing stomps on my planet...apart from me!" Finally MechaGodzilla might turn up. A Tomy Zoid figure is one chioce for this, but the scale may be too large I'm not sure. Cheers, Mark. ===== [I would only allow Godzuki if Ogrethulhu was there to eat it. As Godzuki's artificial sweetness probally causes cancer, this kills two monsters with one kidney stone. -HJC] ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: History of PanEuropean Missile Tanks > From: David Morse > Achillies missile tank > 2/5 main attack 5 hexes, or 5 inches? > D2 > M2 Hexes, or inches? > In all other ways like > a standard missile tank > > The Achillies made up 40% of PanEuropean missile tank production, with > perhaps 20% of units retrofitted in the field. This conversion was > compartively simple, and occassionally done in response to actual > intelligence about enemy force makeup. What's the Cobb Formula pt. value on this beast? [Hexes or inches? See http://www.io.com/~hcobb/gev/formcalc.html , but I think he's already used that... -HJC] I like the idea of forcing people who develop "new" units to have to justify the unit's existence -- keeps the munchkin- mobiles in check. BTW: I've found that the best way to balance the standard MSL unit is to change its movement mode to HVY. Brings the points to 72, and gives the bucket more maneuverability to compensate for the slower top-end speed. CF ===== [Then Lt Tanks can't escort them. Why not make up some counters that say Msl Tank atk 3 and Howitzer atk 6 and on any turn when these missile units neither move nor fire they may each place one counter of the matching type on any unoccupied hex within range. During the other player's next turn any unit that enters one of these hexes takes a single spillover attack from the combined firepower. (So a Heavy tank entering a hex interdicted by a Msl Tank and a Howitzer takes one 1-1 spillover attack and is disabled on a 5-6.) Pick up the interdiction counters at the start of the missile unit's next move and the units disabled by interdiction fire recover as if they had been disabled on the turn the counter was placed. The rational for this silliness? See GO118 for grounded Hypersmart missiles. -HJC] ============================== From: "Paul Chapman" Subject: Ogre Mk. VI scenarios Here's a number of scenario alterations, designed for the Mk. VI. I've posted these before, I think, and no one found any significant flaws. However, this group has been quiet, and I'm paranoid, so I'm posting them again for further perusal. So, hey, if you find any problems, or think of other scenarios that deserve a Mk. VI, let me know. Mk. VI stats: 3MB, 6SB, 16AP, 3MR (12msls), 6extMSLs, 72Treads, Move3, 250VP The Ogre Mk. VI may be used in a number of published scenarios with only a few changes. However, due to the "Fuzzy Wuzzy" problem (see "Ogres and The Fuzzy Wuzzy Fallace" by Lawrence Duffield in The Ogre Book.), it is recommended that no more than 25% of the opposing force may be made up of identical units, unless that total represents a single figure (such as another Ogre). Ogre Mk. V on Defense This scenario uses the basic map, also known as the crater map. The goals are identical to the basic scenario (the Mk. VI must destroy a command post located at the opposite end of the map). The defense has an Ogre Mk. V and 96 points of armor. Ogre Mk. VI on Defense This scenario uses the basic map, also known as the crater map. The goals are identical to the basic scenario, with the Mk. VI and 6 GEV's defending a command post against two Fencer-A's and 48 points of armor. Duel I This scenario can be played on any map. The Ogre Mk. VI's goal is to get from one end of the map to the other. Trying to stop it is two Ogre Mk. III and 48 points of armor. Duel II This scenario is identical to Duel I above, but the defenders are an Ogre Mk. V with an Ogre Mk. III. Ogre Raid This scenario uses the GEV map, and is based on the Advanced Raid scenario from the Ogre/GEV rulebook (9.036). The attacker in this variant has an Ogre Mk. VI. The defender has 48 points of infantry and 60 points of armor. The defender also rolls for reinforcements once on even turns, and twice on odd (as per 9.036). [This has been an official message from Steve Jackson Games' Miniatures Division.] Paul Chapman http://www.sjgames.com/minis Miniatures Division Manager Steve Jackson Games paul@sjgames.com ===== [As a clarification for anybody who hasn't got everything, the Fencer-A is the version listed in the Ogre Reinforcement Pack or in Ogre Minis, page 20. -HJC] ============================== Send all submissions or mailing list changes or problems to ogre@sjgames.com Archives for this mailing list may be found at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/ General online support for the OGRE game is at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave and other products mentioned here are trademarks or registered trademarks of Steve Jackson Games. All rights are reserved by SJ Games. 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