====== OGRE Digest, Feburary 4th, 2003 (Last: February 1st) ======== ===== Carrier games From: "Chris French" ===== The new Ogre book From: "Chris French" ===== Fencer points, streams and D5 SHVY From: "Paul Grogan" ===== Re: Vehicle Carried Inf From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com ===== River Crossing From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com From: Sethkimmel@aol.com ===== MANPADS From: Sethkimmel@aol.com ===== Dismounted Cavalry Scout From: Sethkimmel@aol.com ===== D5 SHVY From: "Brian Bell" ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Carrier games > From: Servitor@aol.com > > Umm, what size class is this *&^%$#@! thing? > > Whoops! Size class 9 Thank you. > > > Notes: *SMB (Super Main Battery). > > > > Basically, a HWZ strapped into a MB barbette? > > > Concerning SMB, yes, essentially Thank you again. > The minature I based my unit off of is a monstorous thing > (which puts even 2 pound paperweights to shame) which does, indeed, have a > huge interior bay complete with a group of six tanks. Umm, am I the only person thinking of a set of Metagaming titles -- _Helltank_ and _Helltank Destroyer_? _HD_'s focal unit is a "carrier tank" [pause while writer moves aside Arkham House editions of H.P. Lovecraft's works to get to his copies of the games, plus _Rivets_ -- organization, what's that?] which can haul two armor units and two infantry squads. Seems we're traveling a path that's been covered before. (Reminds me: I need to figure out the conversions from _H_ to _OGRE_ -- I wanna take a Mk. 6 against a Starplex.... >:) ) > Some day I will take pictures of it and put them up on my site. [kicks Servitor in the butt] Take pictures of these things and put them on your website. :) > Please note that AOL Hometown is a bit twitchy, so you might get a "Can't > find this page" type error. Just hit your reload button and that should > take care of it. Is this a bad time to mention that AOL sponsors a car in the NASCAR Winston Cup Series? I can't help chuckling whenever Allen Bestwick mentions the AOL car is running slowly or has crashed. > [The minimum movement rule clearly only counts for the first hex of > movement for the turn, so a hovetruck probally cound't cross a stream to > enter a town hex on its second movement phase. -HJC] Didn't see where he mentioned that. (Tho' your unusually high number of typoes suggests you were a bit rushed. :) ) Out here, that's another use for listing units on a sheet of paper; units which have already paid for a movement (eww) but cannot execute right away have the fact noted somewhere. CF ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: The new Ogre book > From: stephan beal > > i agree, but i also agree that D4 is too weak for it's cost (i avoided > SHVYs until the D5 change). i wouldn't quite say it's worth 3 armor units, > either, though. Last I looked, it was only worth 2. >Altering it's ATT or MP to balance it out would break it worse, i > think. This highlights a weakness in ratio-based combat systems: there are > no small increments. [coughcoughCobbFormulacough] CF ============================== From: "Paul Grogan" Subject: Fencer points, streams and D5 SHVY > For us players of original OGRE/GEV, not the miniatures version, is there > an official armour point value for the Fencer and Fencer-B. The original > Fencer was 24 armour units, so I'm not sure what the new variants are > worth. The conversion is: 6 pts. == 1 "armor unit". _OGRE Miniatures_ gives a point cost for the Fencer of 140, so between 23 and 24 armor units. (23&1/3, to be exact.) Yep, it seems to be rounded up. I mentioned that the original Fencer was 24 armour units. But the new fencers are 125 and 150 points. I think this translates as 21 armour units, and 25 armour units. > Just out of interest, my other house rule is that crossing a stream is > 1MP, rather than the having to wait a turn. Slightly alters some > scenarios but plays a lot better IMHO. Interesting idea, but which units does it apply to? Only to the units which already have to stop for the streams > Finally, a question. Since putting the SHVY up to D5, has anyone else > found that it is a bit too tough? The new SHVY better represents the crossover from Tank to OGRE. Yep, I understand all that, and the stats, but my players tend to think its a bit too good and people are just taking as many of them as they can get. I may have to limit their choices. > A question: If a GEV reaches a stream hex-side with only one MP left on > its first phase of movement, does that mean it can pay that MP, then > actually move across the stream on the first MP of its 2nd phase? And > what do you believe should happen when a GEV reaches a stream with only > one MP left on its last movement phase? For ease of play and not having to remember, we normally say no, but you could play that as a rule if you dont mind the bookkeeping. Maybe a counter that says "Stream Crossed". Hmmm, maybe I'll do that. Thanks for the idea. > Infantry can only get on a vehicle at the end of their turn, but can get > off at any time. They cannot move on their own on the turn they get off. > > Nice and simple, and closes the loophole. > > Comments anyone? i like it. :) It's easy enough to explain to a newbie without having to go into too much detail. Thanks, I've been using it for many years now and other OGRE fans who I've mentioned it to also now use it. > Finally, a question. Since putting the SHVY up to D5, has anyone else > found that it is a bit too tough? i agree, but i also agree that D4 is too weak for it's cost (i avoided SHVYs until the D5 change). i wouldn't quite say it's worth 3 armor units, either, though. Altering it's ATT or MP to balance it out would break it worse, i think. This highlights a weakness in ratio-based combat systems: there are no small increments. I agree completely, D4 too weak, D5 too good. Not sure what to do about this except limit numbers. I have got rid of the AP guns though. ============================== From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com Subject: Re: Vehicle Carried Inf << Mine's even simpler: Infantry may not mount and dismount in the same turn (one turn in this case meaning each side getting its 1st move, fire, and 2nd move). So an INF cannot simply hop onto a nearby GEV-PC, ride up to the OGRE, and then hop off into the bushes. >> Make it cost 2MPs to load or unload Infantry. Tho, this seems only to be for playability sake. WW2 tanks would slow for about 10 seconds while the inf dropped off the back, and they were leg inf who could not just hop off a tank moving at 25MPH, let alone a GEV at 50. Powered armor would allow more "one the bounce" dismounting ability on an open frame. Harder to unload from something that is protecting them, like an Ogre internal space... Ad Astra! Stan Leghorn ============================== From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com Subject: River Crossing << Myself, I want to know why it is that armor units which are sealed up against NBC strikes can't simply drive across the bottoms of rivers. Close the vents, hit "recirc" on the HVAC, and pray the marine INF are elsewhere. :) >> Because they are NOT nuclear powered, like the Ogre. Unless the rules were changed while I was not looking, they still used liquid fuel... Ad Astra! Stan Leghorn ===== [IIRC Evil Stevie noted that all the little units used nuclear power units in a Space Gamer "Ask the Ogre" and that is clearly seen in the GURPS OGRE designs, so there's nothing from keeping any tank in the game from taking a dip, as long as it doesn't go too deep. So just treat water as swamp for light and heavy tanks, except that they can't fire. -HJC] ============================== From: Sethkimmel@aol.com Subject: River Crossing > Myself, I want to know why it is that armor units which are > sealed up against NBC strikes can't simply drive across the > bottoms of rivers. Close the vents, hit "recirc" on the HVAC, > and pray the marine INF are elsewhere. :) Futuristic gas turbines and/or diesels still need air.... Of course if your Ogre Universe has vehicles with O2 tanks, or fuel cells (which still need outside O2 unless they have the afore mentioned O2 tanks), this might be justifiable...Air snorkels would work too (in the river, not the lake...too deep), though I think the Soviets tried this and they didn't work well; besides suffocating and/or drowning in a mired tank is a nasty way to go... The most important reason in my opinion to NOT use these (and the ignore stream thread) is that it negates terrain and the rock-scissors-paper aspect to the units which makes the game more interesting to play.... ============================== From: Sethkimmel@aol.com Subject: MANPADS > >c) Anti- Ballistic/ Aerospace Defense Missile Systems > >d) Man Portable Aerospace Defense Systems (MANPADS) > > Umm -- no airplanes.... because MANPADS kills them as well as satellites and ICBMs...:-) ===== [That is some range on those suckers. Do you need to wear kneepads when you fire them? -HJC] ============================== From: Sethkimmel@aol.com Subject: Dismounted Cavalry Scout > Dismounted Cavalry Scout > > !? Where in _OGRE_ do these guys show up? in games mechanics they're infantry getting off of GEV-PCs. In OGRE fiction, they can be a mech. cavalry unit vice an infantry and/or armor unit (or motor-rifle and tank, or gepanzert panzergrenadier and panzer if you're Pan Euro...:-) ). ============================== From: "Brian Bell" Subject: D5 SHVY The problem with a D5 SHvy is that now Ogre Mk I's are no longer worth thier points. A Mk I is now in the same situation as the SHvy was. 2 SHvy can take out a Mk I main gun 2/3rds (12:3) of the time. But a Mk I can only take out a single SHvy 1/6th of the time (4:5). Yet a Mk I costs 2.5x that of a SHvy. I feel that the SHvy was incorrectly balanced when it was given D5. It should have been balanced against an Ogre Mk I and Ogre Mk II rather than 2 Hvy Tanks. It was designed, after all, as an Ogre Killer, not as a Hvy Tank Killer or other armor killer. A D4 SHvy was balanced against an Ogre Mk I. 2 of them had a 2/3rds chance of killing the Ogre Main Battery and the Ogre had a 2/3rds chance of killing/disabling it. The Ogre Mk I and II should be given D5 armor for thier Main Guns or the SHvy dropped back down to D4. -Bri ============================== Send all submissions or mailing list changes or problems to ogre@sjgames.com Archives for this mailing list may be found at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/ General online support for the OGRE game is at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave and other products mentioned here are trademarks or registered trademarks of Steve Jackson Games. All rights are reserved by SJ Games. This material is used here in accordance with the SJ Games online policy at http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html