====== OGRE Digest, Feburary 13th, 2003 (Last: February 8th) ======== ===== Fencer points, streams and D5 SHVY From: "Chris French" ===== That Paneuropean feeling From: Sethkimmel@aol.com ===== Tables of Equipment From: Sethkimmel@aol.com ===== SHVY Calculation Error Found From: "Chris French" ===== Missile Racks in Overrun? From: Andrew Walters ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Fencer points, streams and D5 SHVY > > From: "Paul Grogan" > > Yep, it seems to be rounded up. I mentioned that the original Fencer was > > 24 armour units. But the new fencers are 125 and 150 points. I think this > > translates as 21 armour units, and 25 armour units. One other thing: I ran the Mk. 1 through the Cobb formula, only treating the thing as a "normal" armor unit with multiple Attack values (one Att. 4, 4 Att. 1 AP), a DV of 4 (based on the only antiarmor gun on the thing), and 3 MP. I assumed the MB's DV was the one that mattered, as the Mk. 1 is a mission kill once that gun is gone. On that basis, the Mk. 1 is worth a mere 14 VP, even with all the "OGRE bonuses". By comparison a SHVY is worth just under 12 (11.85, I think). So either the ability to be shot apart one piece at a time is a damned sight more valuable than the rest of the OGRE combined, or the Mk. 1 is severely overvalued. I'm in- clined to believe that second one. > Reminds me: Is anyone else curious as to why tanks in OGRE > seem to be lacking snatch straps and/or winches for occasions > where the driver forgets to turn away from the swamp? > > [They're hidden to help reduce the RCS. -HJC] Umm, they couldn't be located behind moving panels? I'd be inclined to allow armor to move 1 hex on the same roll as GEVs in forest. If the armor has sufficient Engineers and INF stacked with it, it moves 1 hex automatically. > From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com > Subject: D5 SHVY > The Panzerblitz problem arrives again. Russian Armies with full > motorization and tons of armor units. Which did not exist until AFTER WW2... Not to mention that the Eastern Front was severely bipolar in nature -- at no time was there ever anything remotely like two balanced forces facing each other. Until Stalingrad, the Germans were the dominant force; after that, Lend-Lease began to tell, and the Khanate of the Golden Horde had the advantage. > > The way to handle this might be to use TO&E requirements such that the > economic cost of a unit is enforced by how few you can have in any formation. Unfortunately, SJG has never seen fit to *publish* actual TO&E tables for _OGRE_, save for the "samples" in the rear of _OGRE Miniatures_. I've been trying to adapt GDW's _Twilight 2000_ modules _US Army Vehicle Guide_, _Soviet Vehicle Guide_, and _NATO Vehicle Guide_ to the purpose, but _OGRE_ only has the combat vehicles -- no CEVs (engineer tanks), no AA (for game reasons), no ammo haulers, no mortars (I had to in- vent those myself), just various line-combat units. > From: David Morse > Subject: D5 SHVY > Yes. 2 armor is too little. 3 armor is too much. So charge 2.5 armor. > I've played it a bit and its about right. At 2.5 armor its only real > weakness is against bigger Ogres, and even then its no pushover. > > (This was Henry's suggestion a few months ago) So the Formula doesn't really work for units beyond the basic _OGRE_ game -- according to it, the SHVY is overvalued a bit at 12 points. That,or, as I suggested earlier, certain OGREs are badly overvalued. > The SHVYs get the gun, but that's not end of story. The Ogre will still ram > at least one of them to death. > [Except that SHVYs ram like little Ogres, remember? -HJC] Damn -- he beat me to it. :) I think the only way to rectify this is to devalue the "light" OGREs (the 1 and 2). I'd say the Mk. 1 is only worth 1.5 armor units, and the 2 is worth maybe 5 AU. BTW: Is anyone interested in a scenario with the *really* low- ball units? I finally have a backstory to justify it. :) CF ============================== From: Sethkimmel@aol.com Subject: That Paneuropean feeling > (or motor-rifle and tank, or gepanzert panzergrenadier and panzer if > >you're Pan Euro...:-) ). > > I think the Frogs may have something to say about those > names, inasmuch as France appears to be the ramrod of the > Paneuropean gov't. (Explains why they were the first major > power to fold, I suspect. :) ) I couldn't remember how to say it in French, though right now I'd probably gag if I tried...:-( It is sadly interesting how real life is starting to take on a Combine-Pan Euro split. As an example I've went from an internationalist who despised Buchanan-isolationists, to a RABID Euro-hater who wants the US out of NATO and the UN; it's personal-I knew 9/11 victims). I think the current Franco/Germano-US breach is unrepairable (on the same vein as the Gemano-British breach of the 1880's-1890's) and for the same reasons-they hate and are jealous of the top dog. I could see real life Ogre in 50 years...:-( ===== [What, with the breakup of NATO and the French in agreement with Germany and Russia and the militant tone Japan's taking with North Korea? Shouldn't take that long. A minus in Future History for Evil Stevie. (His timeline drags out too long, but then it was written before Reagan after all.) -HJC] ============================== From: Sethkimmel@aol.com Subject: Tables of Equipment > Russian Armies with full > motorization and tons of armor units. especially with every tank a Josef Stalin!!!...:-) ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: SHVY Calculation Error Found I was planning to see what could be done to better balance the SHVY , and discovered that the VP value provided in the "Back To The Drawing Board" article for the SHVY is incorrect. Specifically, 43.2 + 47.52 + 7.63 + 60 =3D 158.35, not 141.55 -- mean- ing a SHVY should be worth (158.35 / 12 =3D) 13.19 VP, not 11.8. (I checked the subtotals, and they are correct.) This may help explain why D5 SHVYs are riding herd on HVYs quite so badly. CF ===== [Yeah, I've been harping on this for a bit. http://www.io.com/~hcobb/gev/2002/gevmay16.txt I suppose I'd best re-proof the Ogre Book and find enough errors in my first pass to make it worthwhile to put up an errata page for it. -HJC] ============================== From: Andrew Walters Subject: Missile Racks in Overrun? I just searched the minis and board game rules, and can't figure out what Missile Racks do in Overrun combat. I'm running a tournament tomorrow night with Mark IVs, so I really need to know... Do they fire missiles in *each* overrun fire round? They could empty their magazines in a single turn! Well, theoretically; I don't know what they could run into that would absorb that much firepower without ending the overrun. Do they maybe fire in the first round of overrun only? Would this interfere with their ordinary fire during the combat phase of the turn? Does anyone know the official rules on this? Andrew ===== [Next time, just bring up my homepage and use the google search on the archives... http://www.io.com/~hcobb/gev/2001/gevnov23.txt -HJC] ============================== Send all submissions or mailing list changes or problems to ogre@sjgames.com Archives for this mailing list may be found at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/ General online support for the OGRE game is at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave and other products mentioned here are trademarks or registered trademarks of Steve Jackson Games. All rights are reserved by SJ Games. This material is used here in accordance with the SJ Games online policy at http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html