====== OGRE Digest, Feburary 25th, 2003 (Last: February 22nd) ======== ===== Ogre Defensive From: "Herb Diehr" ===== Overrun Ogre From: David Morse From: Sethkimmel@aol.com From: Andrew Walters From: "Chris French" ===== SuperHeavy From: Sethkimmel@aol.com ===== Raid Comments and Questions From: Andrew Walters ============================== From: "Herb Diehr" Subject: Ogre Defensive > No reason to believe the Marks I and II couldn't be the same; Mark I > production started at defense three for the main gun, then moved to > four, then finally to five. OK, whoa. When the *&^%$#@! did OGRE battery Defense values change? Everything I own says that a MB is the same regard- less of the OGRE (At. 4; Rn. 3; De. 4); same for SBs, missiles, and everything else. Only the complement changes. Yes, that's what the rules say. I'm putting forward a change of thinking here, where the earliest Ogres had D3 for their main. Then changed to D4 during the time-period where most games take place (and before the changes make the SHY D5), then progress to D5 late in the wars, just as the SHY does. This makes the game dependant upon a time-table, just as SFB and ASL. However, this allows much greater expansion and reality (?) to be seen. I think this game stopped being a simple 'lunch-time' game with the release of GEV. Over 1,000 counters puts it in the same realm as SFB and ASL, without the organization. Sorely needed. A strategic game would lend a good framework... Any publishable ideas? Herb Diehr ===== [SJ has changed his mind about the defense value of a Mark II's secondaries over time, which I think is the starting point for this, but really I don't see the point in having a less armored Ogre after the Mark I. -HJC] ============================== From: David Morse Subject: Overrun Ogre > [Yeah. One squad of marines can chop a Mark VI into shark bait so they > should cost way more than just 4 VPs. -HJC] Uh-huh, and 1000 VP "Smurfs" can automatically destroy missle crawlers in "Gargamel's Castle" terrain, but that doesn't make them a good buy. > What idiot overruns an OGRE? An idiot with a LOT of light tanks and not much room to run. :) ===== [LGEVs are better. Shoot then ram and you can draw them in from a great distance. -HJC] ===== From: Sethkimmel@aol.com Subject: Overrun Ogre > What idiot overruns an OGRE? I've seen sillier stuff on the game board/table...:-) ===== From: Andrew Walters Subject: Overrun Ogre >What idiot overruns an OGRE? I'm not an expert in types of idiots, but I've seen this behavior recently in the field. What can I say. Some people are bad at math. ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Overrun Ogre > Also there is a new review of the Mark IV mini on the web, see the > Ogre News at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/ (I wounder if I should ask for > reprint permission for Ogre News and Daily Illuminator to fluf things up > here.) -HJC] I'd say "no, unless it's really important and only available to those with subscriptions, or if no one has sent you anything in a week". [OK, I'll refer. -HJC] > [Yeah. One squad of marines can chop a Mark VI into shark bait so > they should cost way more than just 4 VPs. -HJC] Umm, how? (I ask because I've never had occasion to use Marine INF; no one I know is stupid enough to use water as anything besides a GEV highway.) [Marines are doubled in underwater overruns (maybe) and Ogres cannot fire back so twice a turn the marine squad gets two shots without response. -HJC] > [I suppose having a little help wouldn't hurt. Can everybody else > take a look through the new Ogre Book and mail me anything they find wrong? > -HJC] On the way. (Artillery fans will get this joke. :) ) > [When I costed out the Mark One, I did so on the basis of the GEV > rules where the Mark I has TWO anti-armor weapons. *WHOA*. I have never seen *any* "official" _OGRE_ product which gives the Mk. I more than one antiarmor gun. So far as I've seen, it's always been 1x MB and 4x AP. So where does a two-gun Mk. I appear? [I did not say two guns, I said two weapons. One of these weapons is a gun and the other weapon is a set of treads. -HJC] > The current Superheavy with the super ram is > probally around three armor units as it can destroy three heavy tanks in > its first overrun fire phase. -HJC] Like I said. :) And now for something completely different: As requested, I am posting a scenario involving all-"lowball" units. The scenario is as follows: Scenario: "Down Among The Zed-Men" Location: South of Orapa city-state (formerly Botswana) Date: December 31, 2101 Following the collapse of both of its major military and civil suppliers, the nation of South Africa saw ahead of it a clear path to dominion over the whole of the southern part of the contin- ent. Most of the Front-Line States had disintegrated long before due to an overload of refugees from the Sahara Combat Zone, loss of supplies from Combine and Paneurope, and the terminal- ly poor leadership for which African nations are infamous. What few nodes of civilization survived did so in much the same man- ner as South Africa -- trading resources for food, medicine, and (of course) firepower. One of these city-states is Orapa, once of Botswana. It has ac- cess to a diamond mine; those diamonds have financed the sur- vival of the city. However, South Africa wants the mine for it- self. Once more, the sands of Africa will drink the blood of its people.... Setup: Use the _OGRE_ map; the clear area is to the South. Treat crater hexes as hexes with six rubble hexsides. Place a city in hex 0801. Attacker: South Africa 1x OGRE Mk. I/Pikeman Start: Enters on South edge of map, Turn 1. Defender: Orapa City-State 25 pts. of armor and infantry; no more than 15 points may be spent on any given unit class Start: All units must be placed on or North of xx16 hexrow; no more than 10 pts. of units may be placed between xx08 and xx16. Special Rule: Defender's unit-type selections are limited to the following: Armor Class: MBT: At. 2; Rn. 2; De. 2; Mv. 2; MM: TNK; Size 2; Pts.: 2 APC: At. 1; Rn. 1; De. 1; Mv. 2; MM: TNK; Size 2; Pts.: 1 Carries three Militia squads inside. FA: At. 2; Rn. 4; De. 1; Mv. 0; MM: N/A; Size 2; Pts. 3 Infantry Class: MIL: At. 1 (per squad); Rn. 1; De. 1; Mv. 1 every other turn; MM: MIL; Size 1; Pts.: 1/3 Victory conditions: If the Attacker destroys all Defender units, it is a Attacker victory. If the city is destroyed, it is a Draw. If the OGRE is destroyed and any Defenders survive, it is a Defender victory. (Reason: The South Africans want the city, and its workforce, intact.) CF ============================== From: Sethkimmel@aol.com Subject: SuperHeavy > Where is the exception "except for entering water" noted? It's not in the > tabletop rules, AFAIK. In Shockwave (or is it the Reinforcements Pack?) it > simply says, "... moves as an Ogre," which i must assume means that it may > travel under water. Or is this one of those minis/tabletop differences? The terrain effects matrix implies this by NOT mentioning the superheavy at all... ===== [And then it was fixed in the errata at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/errata/deluxe-gev.html -HJC] ============================== From: Andrew Walters Subject: Raid Comments and Questions At DunDraCon last weekend we had a tournament with a Mark IV in a Raid scenario. Went pretty well, but I had these observations about playing and opposing the Ogre in this awesome scenario: #1 I'm working on a record sheet for this scenario. I have yet to play a game where it wasn't a mistake-prone chore to keep track of who blew up what. We have a good sheet for the Ogre, we need a sheet for the map. #2 One guy swapped all his Inf for Hvy Weapons Inf. He got stomped. Since the scenario lets you set up anywhere on the map I think you want to drop your infantry down front in the city hexes along the road and off to the sides in the woods. You'll lose some to missiles, but its hard to dig 3 squads out of a city hex, which forces the Ogre to go around or overrun the infantry. Win-win! #3 The Ogre can keep killing things until its taken a beating, then drop into the water and escape unscathed (its a pretty sure bet you have no HWZ left at that point). To prevent this and force him to leave the honest way (and thus earlier), take a platoon of Marines and keep them out of the action during the entry phase, then get them behind the Ogre, into the water, blocking the river. #4 The attacker virtually has to drive up the East side of the map, there are just way too many city hexes over there. Most people put CP Alpha (30vp) in the Northeast corner, but I think you need it in the Northwest corner; this tempts the Ogre toward the point-barren West side or a leisurely, painful stroll across the width of the map. #5 How come no one ever goes for the 2vp per road hex? I can see skipping this on the trip Northward, but if you're so lucky as to have the chance to retreat, don't leave any asphalt behind! #5aCan you shoot roads in an overrun? If so you can just destroy every hex as you exit. #6 After a careful reading I believe AP cannot be used against city hexes, but I'd be interested in others' reading of the rules. Same issue for road hexes. #6a Can you kill town hexes in an overrun? If so you can always wipe out an empty town hex by driving through it. Andrew ===== [#1 Plastic overlay and markers. #3 It depends on what the defense of marines in water is. Were you using Shockwave (no bonus) or Ogre Minis (almost unkillable)? Paul, can you'll errata some clarity here? (Water as woods is fine to me.) #5 Because you don't get any VPs for ripping up the roads. 9.034: "2 for each hex of [railroad] track" #5a and #6a Nope. You cannot initiate overrun combat unless there is a hostile unit to overrun. However, once there is an Ogre overruning a squad of infantry on a bridge there's nothing to keep the grunts from blowing the bridge on their first fire round. "We'll see you in hell, you souless hunk of tin!" #6 AP guns have no effect on terrain. Which is great if you want to clear the infantry from the town hex you'd like to squat your Ogre in, without cutting the roads. -HJC] ============================= Send all submissions or mailing list changes or problems to ogre@sjgames.com Archives for this mailing list may be found at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/ General online support for the OGRE game is at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave and other products mentioned here are trademarks or registered trademarks of Steve Jackson Games. All rights are reserved by SJ Games. This material is used here in accordance with the SJ Games online policy at http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html