====== OGRE Digest, January 14th, 2003 (Last: January 12th) ======== ===== Deluxe Ogre From: Servitor@aol.com ===== Basic Scenario defense: 10 GEV, 1 HWZ? From: "Chris French" ===== Two Mark IIIs against the CP defense. From: "Chris French" ===== Is luck too important in Ogre? From: "Chris French" From: David Morse ============================== From: Servitor@aol.com Subject: Deluxe Ogre > When I found out > that "Deluxe Ogre" didn't have the (then out of print) GEV rulebook, I was > majorly cheesed off. True, that. But at least the "Doubleday" edition (so named because the rules for OGRE and G.E.V. were printed back-to-back and upside down to one another) of OGRE/G.E.V. addressed that (well, until Shockwave came out) best, John Hurtt (Servitor@aol.com) -Yes, I'm a Game Geek. How did you know? -Please visit my website at: http://hometown.aol.com/Servitor/Ogreindex/ogrindex.htm "Walk softly and carry a big stick" Personally, I prefer a taser. Lots more fun... ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Basic Scenario defense: 10 GEV, 1 HWZ? > 50! i have never in my life beaten a Mk V on the Ogre map. In the words of Chiun from _Remo Williams_: "Pathetic." 40 lashes with a rolled-up copy of _The OGRE Book, Vol. 2_. > > My battalion > > (2x 4-HVY pl.; 2x 4-GEV pl.; 1x 2-HVY & 1x 1-HWZ pl; standard > > i don't understand your labeling: 2x 4-HVY pl? "2x" means "two of the following"; "4-[n]" indicates "four units of [unit]". Thus "2x 4-HVY" == "two groups, four HVY per group" for a total of eight HVYs. > /me bows and scrapes > i'm always happy to end the game with even 4 armor left. (i'm far from > being a great strategist, i just enjoy playing the game.) I fear I aspire to greater goals -- like bludgeoning the *&^%$#@! out of the monster-size units in whatever game I'm playing. :) > That'd be a neat trick with 2 missiles ;). True; I was confusing my Mk. V-killing force with my Mk. III- killing force. One of these days, I need to try a Mk. I vs. an all-archaic military. Just as soon as I can find a justification for doing so. > [I would suggest reading Evil Steve's Basic Ogre Strategy article in > the Ogre Book. I have read it. It doesn't take into account an Unfortunate Reality of _OGRE_ -- namely, that "1" crops up a lot more of- ten than people think. Maybe not with the missiles, but I've seen SBs whiff more than once. Also, there's only so many missiles and SBs, while there's a lot of real estate to cover; like as not, the OGRE only gets to FWACKOOM* one HVY per turn in the fashion described; then it's Revenge of the Heavies. (GEVs are worse.) [*: I recommend _The Munchkin's Guide To Power-Gaming_; it's a hoot. Avail. through SJG. :) ] > Ogre's can't just dive in, they'll get mobbed. Instead tread softly > and carry some big guns. -HJC] It's not so much the OGRE diving in, as the armor and infantry diving in. The OGRE can only move one direction at a time, whereas the defense can come in from all directions. ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Two Mark IIIs against the CP defense. > From: David Morse > I had two people over this weekend and we were casting about for a 3 player > game. We decided to run the above scenario with 1 player / ogre. We > crushed the defender so badly that I think he'se still cursing. And why was > that? Because if the defense goes the standard > use-gevs-kill-MB-then-hit-treads technique, two nearby Mark IIIs take out > many more GEVs with their secondaries than a lone Mark V. They simply can > get twice as many hexes in secondary range per turn. Congratulations! You've just learned why no one is building battleships or large aircraft carriers anymore. There's no substi- tute for larger numbers of smaller targets. > [Even way back in Duffield's Fuzzy article the two Mk III's scenario > was noted as being tough. I always combine it with the Mk III defender to > get a fairly balanced four player, three Mk III scenario. Which is always > great at conventions and easy to play. -HJC] That's nice, but the gentleman specifically asked for a *3*- player game. :) Is it me, or is it essentially impossible to design a wargame that plays well with odd numbers of players? ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Is luck too important in Ogre? > From: David Morse > > I'm starting to think it is, at least for most of the core scenarios. > Ogre is a game of percentages, and both sides will strive very hard to get > a 5% > avantage in the first shot. However in 20-40% of games one side then gets > catastrophically screwed on dice rolling. Like about a month ago the > enemy's first shot was 5 1-1s against my Mark IIIs batteries. They ALL > hit, > and I went from cherry to gunless in one turn. With armor it seems even > more extreme. Yes. But to alleviate this would require more rules. > Now when the dice don't misfire like this, Ogre is a lot of fun. But I > believe throwing away a third of your games due to bad dice is not the > mark of a good game. I hate to say this, but pretty much any wargame with dice is dependent on how the dice roll. All the strategies and tactics in the world avails naught against a Murphy*. And since few _OGRE_ games allow for "he who fights and runs away" to "live to fight another day", well, if the dice hate you that day, you may as well surrender early -- if nothing else, it will annoy the hell out of whoever's beating you. :) [*: "Murphy" == "minimum value possible on a given die roll". For example: On a standard 3d6 roll, 3 is Murphy.] > Back in the golden age of Magic the Gathering there was a similar problem > with drawing land cards. If you got too few or too many you simply lost, > and the game was trivial and boring. *No* comment, Your Honor. :) > I'm playing a lot of Star Fleet Battles these days, and though someone > always wins and someone always loses, 97% of the time the reason they lost > was because they were outplayed, not because the dice hate them. Or one of them has the rules manual fall of him, and the other player wins by default. :) > I may start using a standard deck of playing cards to simulate D6 rolls. > One player gets the red cards ace through six. The other gets the black > cards ace through six. Shuffle and discard unseen the top two cards from > each deck. Then use drawing cards in place of dice for generating CRT > results. When a deck is exhausted, reshuffle all 12 cards and repeat. > This way I am assured that at least 20% of the first ten one-to-one attacks > will X, and likewise are assured that at least 60% of them will D or NE. Seems like the results will be much the same as for dice. And Cthulhu help you if you play against a cardsharp, or if you find yourself with your opponent knowing that all the wimpy cards have been drawn and he still has all his forces available (a likely result if the wimpy cards have all been drawn). Which leads me to: UNIT DAMAGE RESULTS IN _OGRE_ In this variant, a "D" result has a greater effect than simply inerting a unit for a turn. NOTE: This variant requires some sort of listing of all units in the fight. I have numbered my counters, and keep track of them on notebook paper; four units can be fitted onto a line. When a "D" result is rolled on a unit, immediately roll 1d6 for that unit, and check the following table: Armor: 1: No effect 2: Attack 3: Defense 4: Range 5: Move 6: No effect Ogre: 1, 2, 3: No effect 4: Attack 5: Defense 6: Range Subtract points equal to the Attack Odds numerator from the indicated statistic. (That is, if the attack was at 3:1, subtract 3 from the stat.) Also suggested: OGRE components suffer "D" results as per armor units; that is, they cannot be used next turn, and are X'd on subsequent D results during that time. For tracks, halve the damage done (round down; a GEV would inflict 1 hit; a MSL would inflict 1). CF ===== From: David Morse Subject: Is luck too important in Ogre? ack, typeo: > X, and likewise are assured that at least 60% of them will D or NE. 50% ============================== Send all submissions or mailing list changes or problems to ogre@sjgames.com Archives for this mailing list may be found at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/ General online support for the OGRE game is at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave and other products mentioned here are trademarks or registered trademarks of Steve Jackson Games. All rights are reserved by SJ Games. 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