====== OGRE Digest, January 20th, 2003 (Last: January 18th) ======== ===== Is luck too important in Ogre? From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com From: "Chris French" ===== Carrier games From: "Chris French" From: reaper28i From: "Peter Lomax" From: David Morse From: Servitor@aol.com ===== OGRES in other games From: reaper28i ===== Mark I attack From: "Chris French" ===== Deluxe OGRE and GEV maps... From: "Chris French" From: stephan beal ============================== From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com Subject: Is luck too important in Ogre? << You are right, card counting could be a problem. For example if you've seen both 6s then its clearly not the time to be declaring 1-2 attacks. If people know there's an enforced "luck bounceback", they will play to take advantage of it. I'm hopefull of a technological solution that would eliminate, or at least mitigate, this problem. >> Change the CRT to a 2d6 chart. Does not eliminate it, but makes luck much rarer than a straight D6... ===== [My current diceless Ogre rules are as follows. Every die rolls a 3, except for attacks on treads which do one third damage round down. In addition one attack at a time can be carried over from turn to turn as multiples of one half. So a main battery can build up to a 3-1 on a secondary battery in three turns, while a seondary battery takes six turns to make a 3-1 on a main battery. -HJC] ===== From: "Chris French" Subject: Is luck too important in Ogre? > From: David Morse > > Go ahead, mock it all you want, but the fact remains it is much less > sensitive to exceptional rolls ruining the game. It is a counter-example to > your assertion that "pretty much any wargame with dice is dependent on how > the dice roll". Yes -- it goes to the other extreme. Die rolls are pretty much ir- relevant; it's all a question of which tactic written up in _Cap- tain's Log_ each player decides to use. One might as well write down tactic names on cards, and play a form of gin. > ["Narrow Salvos" -HJC] Explain? [SFBism. Similar to a large combined attack in GEV. -HJC] > From: "Eric T. or Maryann C. Holmes" > > Fellow GEV Jockies: > > I think these rules would drag the game along. I like > GEV-Ogre because I can get a game played in less than two hours > when really focused. > > This might be good for "role-playing" GURPs OGRE. Well, if you're like me and keep track of forces on a sheet of paper anyway, all you have to do is throw an extra die of a dif- ferent color for each attack. If the result is X, the second die can be ignored (or, for campaigns, X'd units may be salvaged...); if it's a D, the results of the second die can be noted on the paper. Unless you're using the big fuzzy foam novelty D6s to forestall die-roll fudging, 2D6 shouldn't be that big a deal. ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Carrier games > From: "Third Power" > The battleship I can agree with. It's really just one big weapon system. > But who's not building large carriers anymore? Umm, with the exception of these United States, no one. The French have been making noises about it, but they can't afford one (not to mention no one trusts them with the weapons they have now, never mind a CVN). > The justification for > larger carriers is that they can carry larger numbers of more diverse > aircraft. A modern supercarrier can carry in the area of 80 planes Have you ever looked carefully at Soviet-Russian long-range bombers, esp. the Naval Aviation units? Do you know what those big farkin' nuke-tipped cruise missiles they're all carrying were to be used against? That's right -- big, slow, marginally- defended US supercarriers. (I was told straight out by the head honcho of a _Ticonderoga_-class CA that "the Navy has three classes of ship -- Submarines, Aircraft Carriers, and Cruise- Missile Absorbers.") It would take about 5-6 of those missiles to turn a CVN into a big hole in the ocean; the Russians planned to deploy dozens, if not hundreds, of those things against US CVN groups. Had the balloon gone up, both sides' navies would have been all submersibles after about Day 3, and all airplanes would be land-based. For a good illustration of what this would look like, I recommend Barrett Tillman's book _The Sixth Battle_. Or play a few games of _Harpoon_. Either way, the point I'm making will be more than adequately made. >The > thwacking the Royal Navy recieved in the Falklands Island war is a major > argument for larger carriers. The only reason they didn't lose more ships > was the Argentines ran out of missiles. The reason the UK lost as many ships as they did was due to the fact that they hadn't fought a major naval battle since they tried to kill _Bismarck_. The Falklands campaign is so overrun with bungling on the British side, and fundamental inadequacy on the Argentine side, it's a miracle anyone ever managed to "win" in the first place. (It says something as to how far from trafalgar the Royal Navy had fallen that, when the crew and pas- sengers of a burning transport were rowing ashore, rather than singing "Rule Britannia" or "God Save The Queen", they were singing "Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life".) Admittedly, the five usable Exocets the Argentines had would have been hard-pressed to take out a full-size CVN; however, just damaging the thing would have forced the emptying of the RN's budget for a couple years. More, the Harriers the Brits were using were not meant to be deployed from the carriers they were using once the landings were made; the idea was to use the CV to get them there, then use the troops to secure a temp- orary land base, then use the Harriers from the land base while the CV hauled arse out of there. It's difficult to sink an island. > The main reason other countries > don't build big boats is cost. On this point, you're right. Plus, a CV is a tool for projecting Power into regions far from the Homeland. Thanks to WW1 and WW2, only the US has the Power to spare for such exercises. > [So how about an Ogre that carried a few guns and dozens of attack > drones? An assault Vulcan or something. -HJC] I was thinking of this myself, Mr. Cobb. A single OGRE is a use- ful tool, but it also allows the foe to concentrate on a single target. That Fencer/GEV force mentioned in _OGRE Book Vol. 2_ seems like a more effective application of the OGRE concept. Another option is one I suggested a couple months back -- in the basic _OGRE_ game, everyone knows the OGRE is there to Stomp The CP [TM]. Why not allow the OGRE player the option to either take out the CP, thus allowing a following force to ad- vance through that area; or to destroy as much of the defending force as possible, and let the follow-on force take care of the CP? (Obviously, the OGRE player declares in advance which course of action he's taking.) ===== From: reaper28i Subject: Carrier games > The thwacking the Royal Navy recieved in the Falklands Island war is a major > argument for larger carriers. The only reason they didn't lose more ships > was the Argentines ran out of missiles. The main reason other countries > don't build big boats is cost. I agree the RN needs more carriers! But as for the reasons behind not losing more ships.........So our Sea Harriers and our pilots who knew how to fight (and fly) them didn't put the fear of god into the Argentines? Sorry for that outburst of patriotism :) English OGRE. ===== From: "Peter Lomax" Subject: Carrier games > The battleship I can agree with. It's really just one big weapon system. > But who's not building large carriers anymore? The justification for > larger carriers is that they can carry larger numbers of more diverse > aircraft. A modern supercarrier can carry in the area of 80 planes wereas > smaller 'skijump' carriers rarely carry more than a dozen or so. The > thwacking the Royal Navy recieved in the Falklands Island war is a major > argument for larger carriers. The only reason they didn't lose more ships > was the Argentines ran out of missiles. The main reason other countries > don't build big boats is cost. > > -Roy Kubicek Considering the Brits could only use what they took with them halfway across the world, and that Argentina was a short hop to a well-defended island base; I don't think it was a thwacking. The Brits suffered most against very determined and insanely brave aerial opposition - think bombs not missiles. That is the argument for a super-carrier. The two Exocet losses (a frigate and a cargo ship) were due to British mistakes rather than an over-rated French missile. Twenty years after the Falklands war the British finally decide to build two super-carriers. And they will have STOVL aircraft. Peter Lomax http://surf.to/hawkmoon ===== From: David Morse Subject: Carrier games > ["Narrow Salvos" -HJC] Hm. > [So how about an Ogre that carried a few guns and dozens of attack > drones? An assault Vulcan or something. -HJC] This just begs for an advert for ogre drones. http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/board/article.cgi?2832 ===== From: Servitor@aol.com Subject: Carrier games > So how about an Ogre that carried a few guns and dozens of attack > drones? An assault Vulcan or something. Without rehashing the Israeli infantry-carrier Ogre or similar beasts TOO much, that's a nice idea that hasn't been considered for awhile (of course, I *still* haven't gotten off my lazy duff and joined IO yet. -Not to mention the Yahoo chat stuff. So I'm probably out of the loop on a lot of discussions) Back to the subject; I would like to see some MK I, II and III hulls modified with people's ideas about carrying possibilities. Drones, infantry and even armor units. There could be larger "variant" hulls, but MK IVs and higher were produced in much smaller numbers, with correspondingly less hulls available for "special purpose" variants. Of course specially built hulls are possible, but wouldn't really be cannon. Having just said that, here's my take on a monster "carrier" Ogre. (Definitely non-cannon) CSO (Continental Siege Ogre) 1 SMB* A6, R8, D5 3 Missile Racks D3 12 Missiles A6, R5 12 Antipersonnel A1,R1, D1 Carrier Bay Capacity: 6 Armor Units Additional INF Capacity: 2 Platoons (6 squads) 60 Treads starting at 3 MA Point Value: ?? Beats me! But so far I'm thinking about 125 pts. (Obviously, this doesn't include the cost of the occupants of its carrier bay) Notes: *SMB (Super Main Battery). For carrier bay space purposes, you may embark 1 platoon (3 squads) in place of an armor unit. HVY and marine infantry take the same space as regular INF. Note that you may NOT put armor units in place of INF carried in the "Additional INF Capacity" part of the carrier bay. The carrier bay is only destroyed when the last treads are gone. Units may embark/disembark from the CSO only before its movement. It costs 1MP to embark/disembark, so a fully loaded CSO (with the additinal INF capacity filled) will require 3 turns to completely embark/disembark all carried units. The CSO may move and attack normally in the turn it finishes loading/unloading. The CSO may fire normally during loading/unloading. Disembarked units may fire normally on the turn they disembark in. And if anyone has an old collection of T-Rex miniatures, you know exactly where I got the idea from for this beast... best, John Hurtt (Servitor@aol.com) ============================== From: reaper28i Subject: OGRES in other games Another possible one for the mailing list Henry, please. I recently bought another SJG product - Star Muchkin. Very funny it is too with quite a few "in" jokes the older sci fi fans among us will enjoy (Red Shirts to the rescue!). Anyway one of the "monsters" you get to meet is an OGRE. It gives a negative modifier to cyborgs because they have meat brains and not shiny ones :) One other thing: The Bad Stuff on the card says "Oh, you are SO dead" LOL Mark. ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Mark I attack > 1) Two poorer powers squaring off over an important > piece of (not glowing) real estate. I was thinking something like this -- a South African Mk. I (ac- quired as part of a Combine bribe -- xref _GURPS OGRE_) taking on a force from one of the Front-Line States. (I don't think this idea would work unless OGRE South Africa is being run by the Afrikaaner Weerstandbeweging or other such group, tho'.) > 2) The Ogre is an assassin/kamakaze dropped far > behind lines to kill an important objective. The Mark > I is the only "deployable" Ogre and the archaic armor > (Training/3rd line defense/civillian control) were > never supposed to engage modern forces. IIRC, most OGREverse training is handled in simulators, since any BPC-equipped unit is horrifyingly expensive, and trainees tend to break things. (I was watching a doc. on the USMC's tank-driver school, and saw a sequnce where one of the jar- heads-to-be snapped a drive sprocket on his tank; the DI had to perform an unplanned lesson in Field Maintenance For M1s. :) ) > > 3) Cause it would be fun! Too munchkin. :) ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Deluxe OGRE and GEV maps... > From: reaper28i > Should I glue them onto a large piece of board and > then somehow laminate them? Lamination might work, even if it isn't mounted on a board. However, you won't be able to fold up the map ever again; it will have to be rolled up, and every month or so, it will have to be unrolled and rerolled the other direction, to avoid taking a permanent curl. One idea might be to get some hard clear-plastic sheets, and use those to cover the map. CF ===== From: stephan beal Subject: Deluxe OGRE and GEV maps... i generally use large picture frames for my maps. My dining room table has a glass top which i also keep maps under - simply clear the table [no pun intended] and it's ready for play. > Some chap in Australia (I think) covered one > in large hexes + craters in an excellent rendition of the OGRE map! IIRC he posted that on this list, along with pictures and a how-to describing how he did it (using sawdust and glue to make the craters, as i recall). Or maybe that was someone else... ----- stephan stephan@einsurance.de - http://www.einsurance.de i need a woman who can say, 'honey, can you please take a look at this stack trace while I order the pizza?' and really mean it. ============================== Send all submissions or mailing list changes or problems to ogre@sjgames.com Archives for this mailing list may be found at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/ General online support for the OGRE game is at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave and other products mentioned here are trademarks or registered trademarks of Steve Jackson Games. All rights are reserved by SJ Games. This material is used here in accordance with the SJ Games online policy at http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html