====== OGRE Digest, Jul 30th, 2003 (Last: Jul 27th) ======== ===== Tank Power From: Sethkimmel@aol.com From: "Chris French" From: stephan beal ===== Ogre minis chess set From: David Morse ===== Anti-grav in the Ogreverse From: "Herb Diehr" ============================== From: Sethkimmel@aol.com Subject: Tank Power > Part of the backstory of the Ogreverse is that the world has run out > of Oil. So no diesel for your tanks. -HJC] A LOT of Iowa and Nebraska corn farmers will gladly sell corn oil to the military for 80$ a barrel when they're the only game in town...:-) ===== [And what do they fill up their tractors with? -HJC] ===== From: "Chris French" Subject: Tank power First off, don't blame me -- _GURPS OGRE_ says they use nuke plants. It's canon. Give up -- you've lost. :) > From: Sethkimmel@aol.com >A tank doesn't NEED a nuclear power plant to survive the > nuclear battlefield. Maybe not. But then, if you've been watching the world of late, you'd realize the tank is a dead issue, for the very reason you describe: No one can afford them any more. Plus, it's a damned sight cheaper to just bomb a few shopping centers and slaughter a f***load of civilians, then let the target country's Liberal political wing finish the nation off. Realize: The last war in human history to have a military-fatality-to- civilian-fatality ratio of greater than 1:1 was WW1. Since then, it's actually been *safer* to be on the battlefield than with the REMFs and the Order of the White Feather. > [Part of the backstory of the Ogreverse is that the world has run out > of Oil. So no diesel for your tanks. -HJC] I hate to say this, but this line of thinking was BS when SJ first deployed it for _Car Wars_ back in the '70s, and it's still BS now. If nothing else, have you ever heard of the creosote bush? It's a South American plant which can be used to produce high-grade oil, suitable for use in vehicles. Give me a brace of those plants, and a genetic-modification lab, and the OPECers will be kissing my a** faster than you can say "premium unleaded for a dime". > [The Italians have a fix for this. > > Firing warning shots into the refugee boats. -HJC] The refugees have a fix for this: Go overland. :) No, by the time of the OGREverse, Europe will look a hell of a lot like S. M. Stirling's British and French empires in _The Peshawar Lancers_. (And, of course, the official language of the Combine will be Mexican. :) ) CF ===== From: stephan beal Subject: Tank power > From: Sethkimmel@aol.com > onboard O2 for crew and powerplant. Diesel subs have been using this > (LOX tanks to provide O2 to the diesels for sprinting) for years; I > don't see how it can't be used in 60 years, especially as it's > probably WAY cheaper than NPU's....It's probably a LOT easier to work > on a diesel or gas turbine powerplant w/ AIP than a nuclear one > (especially if it's nuclear-turboelectric like an Ogre [or a CVN for > that matter....}). i'm not disagreeing, but i feel compelled to point out that many forecasts say we won't have any notable fossil fuels in the timeframe of The Last War. (Of course, many have been saying for 50 years that our oil fields won't last another 20 years.) Then there's the additional difficulty of protecting an oil field from attack - it wouldn't take much of a near miss to set one ablaze, i imagine. > [Part of the backstory of the Ogreverse is that the world has run > out of Oil. So no diesel for your tanks. -HJC] Well, and then there's that detail, of course. ============================== From: David Morse Subject: Ogre minis chess set Okay, if you like theme chess sets, and you have some Ogre minis, then you can quickly piece together a believable Ogre Minis themed chess set: King - Command Post (preferably mobile) Queen - Ogre Mk I or Superheavy Tank Rook - Heavy Tank (or HWZ?) Knight - GEV (unpredictable) Bishop - Missile Tank (strikes from far away) Pawn - Infantry ===== [I'd go with Heavy Tank Rook, as a heavy tank force needs to plow straight ahead or lose. -HJC] ============================== From: "Herb Diehr" Subject: Anti-grav in the Ogreverse > I disagree for the same reason their AI's aren't Ogre level: COST.... > [Part of the backstory of the Ogreverse is that the world has run out > of Oil. So no diesel for your tanks. -HJC] As was touted when 'cold fusion' was a "breakthrough technology", the cost was very low (the placement in a combat vehicle may not be, though!!) However, there must be some cheaper than others. Ogres clearly are the most expensive; LGEV's seem likely to be the least. GURPS Ogre was not so good at describing these things, but Traveller had some good points. The main issue is how much weight is moved. With a bit of help from the anti-grav in trucks, LGEV's could be very light indeed and have very small engines -- the equivalent of today's two-hampster engines in many cars in Asia -- and be very cheap. Also, easy to kill. Thus, many units could not use them. Probably not the most stable firing platform, either. Tracked vehicles would need a different solution, with mid-range engines. Anti-grav would be of less use (with all due respects to Col. Hammer). These would be more expensive and very likely half or so the cost of the vehicle. Ogres would be more. I suspect the technology change between vehicles is AI and transmission; the rest is easy. Fortunately, with oil being of little use, need or availability, the middle-east can safely return to the middleages where it seems happiest. Personally, however, I'm a hold-out for broadcast power from Luna, with follow-up technology in the further future run on cosmic rays. OGREverse is the Last Age of the heavy machine, though. Nano-tech comes later... Herb Diehr Optimist > Actually, this week's _The Economist_ had an article on how > Europe's birthrate is declining so precipitously that the white > populations are likely to be overrun entirely by refugees from the > Middle East, India, and other vacation spots; and all those old > ethnic hatreds will be coming with them. By the time 2085 rolls > around, not only might there not be an EU, there might not even > be a France, a Germany, or an Italy.... > > CF > > ===== > > [The Italians have a fix for this. > > Firing warning shots into the refugee boats. -HJC] And rightly so. This is why the EU will take the Russias and Balkans and Mediteranean Africa. Which will be why they fall apart, later, as the Ogre timeline suggests, due to lack of societal cohesion. WW I and the Versailles Treaty have sown the destruction of Europe in any recognizable form for generations. Their only hope would be something like what Spain went through to unify them with the Moors (look for Space Aliens in 2050...!) Herb Diehr Realist > Subject: Super Squads I like simpler rules, myself. How about: Infantry Rule All squads must be fired upon individually, unless artillery is falling. Artillery may not be combined with other fire vs. infantry, but must be resolved all together as artillery fire. Other fire may be divided as a player desires, in advance of any rolls. Artillery attacks the entire hex (against infantry and terrain only, with spill-over vs. any other units there), with the die roll being vs. the terrain modifier for infantry (see below). So, an eight point artillery attack vs. infantry in the woods is a 2-1 attack vs. each infantry unit there. Roll for each squad. Kind of like little Ogres...! Super-Squads have a +1 to the die roll. Terrain Normal in clear Double in any non-listed terrain Triple in cities or forests or swamps or water (Marines only) Revetments add one in clear only Herb Diehr Light Infantryman ===== [Just imagine what kind of designs you could do, if the Ogreverse had anti-grav... TL9_Ogre_Magi_CSA-10 Crew: None Subassemblies: Vehicle +8, Body +7, 4xPod +3, Main Turret +5, 8xAP Turret +2, 4xSecondary Turret +4. P&P: 101,000-kW fusion reactor (200 year duration; no access space), ten 12,000,000-kWs rechargeable power cells, 3,800,000 lbs. lift contragrav generator, 20,000-kW unlimited ducted fan (vectored thrust; no access space) [4x Pod]. Armor F RL B T U Body 6/20,000 5/15,000 5/15,000 4/10,000 4/10,000 Pod 4/10,000 4/10,000 4/10,000 4/10,000 4/10,000 Main Turret 5/15,000 5/15,000 5/15,000 4/10,000 4/10,000 AP Turret 5/15,000 5/15,000 5/15,000 4/10,000 4/10,000 Secondary Turret 5/15,000 5/15,000 5/15,000 4/10,000 4/10,000 Weaponry Malf Type Damage SS Acc 1/2D yds Max yds RoF TL 175Bore Size 175mm LB gauss cannon Ver. Cr 6dx105 30 19 15,000 30,000 1/1 9 30Bore Size 30mm dual-purpose railgun Ver. Cr 6dx18 25 18 6,200 16,000 13 9 135Bore Size 135mm MB gauss cannon Ver. Cr 5dx81 30 19 8,700 20,000 1/1 9 175mm SATNUC ammo - Spcl 9dx51 - 19 15,000 30,000 - 9 175mm APFSDSDU ammo - Cr 6dx210(3) - 20 23,000 45,000 - 9 135mm SATNUC ammo - Spcl 7dx39 - 19 8,700 20,000 - 9 135mm APFSDSDU ammo - Cr 6dx135(3) - 20 13,000 30,000 - 9 30mm HEAT ammo - Exp 9d(10) - 18 6,200 16,000 - 9 rattler launch tube ?? 0d 30 0 0 0 1/1! 9 rattler missile ?? Spcl. 0d 0 0 0 0 ?? 9 Equipment Vehicle: instant chameleon (-6 spotting modifier); radical emission cloaking (-10 spotting modifier); extreme sound baffling (-20 hearing modifier); radical stealth (-10 spotting modifier). Body: mainframe robot brain (complexity 7, +3 DX; genius, hardened, high capacity, sentient); basic communicator (standard voice, bull horn); three long range radio communicators (10,000-mile range; scrambler); magnetic anomaly detector (scan 23, 100-mile range); radscanner (scan 19, 20-mile range); two IFFs; three inertial navigation systems; set of precision navigation instruments; infrared jammer (1,500-mile range, jammer rating 10); two deceptive jammers (jammer rating 14); four rattler launch tubes; 150 rounds 175mm SATNUC ammo(evasive shell, CLGP); 150 rounds 175mm APFSDSDU ammo; 400 rounds 135mm SATNUC ammo(evasive shell, CLGP); 400 rounds 135mm APFSDSDU ammo; 12,000 rounds 30mm HEAT ammo; laminate armor volume. Main Turret: 175mm LB gauss cannon; AESA (scan 19, 25-mile range; LPI); PESA (scan 19, 25-mile range). Secondary Turret: 135mm MB gauss cannon; AESA (scan 18, 17-mile range; LPI); PESA (scan 18, 17-mile range). AP Turret: 30mm dual-purpose railgun; AESA (scan 16, 9-mile range; LPI); PESA (scan 16, 9-mile range); surveillance sound detector (sound level 16); advanced radar/laser detector. Statistics Size: [LxWxH] 101 x 25.3 x 12.7 Payload: 119,717 lbs. Lwt: 3,095,865 lbs. Volume: 32,399 cf Maint: 0.862 Hrs (111 man-hrs./day) Price: $538,461,430 HT: 10 HP: 78,000 [Body], 1,800 each [4x Pod], 9,600 [Main Turret], 896 each [8x AP Turret], 4,800 each [4x Secondary Turret]. Ground Performance: Motive Power 80,000-kW, Top Speed 45 mph, gAcc 10 mph/s, gDec 5 mph/s, gMR 0.5, gSR 3, Ground Pressure 953 lbs./sf, Off Road Speed 0 mph. Air Performance: Motive Thrust 320,000 lbs., Stall Speed 0 mph, Top Speed 535 mph, Terminal Velocity 1,661 mph, Glide Speed 664 mph, Glide Ratio 0.841:1, aAccel 2 mph/s, aMR 1.5, aSR 6, aDecel 6 mph/s. Design Notes: TL9 robotic responsive ultra heavy frame advanced materials [Vehicle]. TL11 DR 10,000 advanced laminate [Vehicle]. Operating Duration: 49 S. Payload Cost: $228,779,600 Vehicle Features: computerized controls, responsive structure, sealed, underbelly skid, no streamlining. Body: total compartmentalization, 60° Front Slope, 30° Rear Slope, 30° Left Slope, 30° Right Slope. Main Turret: limited rotation, total compartmentalization, 30° Slope on all Faces. AP Turret: limited rotation, total compartmentalization, 30° Slope on all Faces. Secondary Turret: limited rotation, total compartmentalization, 30° Slope on all Faces. Volume: 28,228 cf [Body], 120 cf [4x Pod], 1,315 cf [Main Turret], 39.9 cf [8x AP Turret], 514 cf [4x Secondary Turret]. Area: 6,500 sf [Body], 150 sf [4x Pod], 800 sf [Main Turret], 75 sf [8x AP Turret], 400 sf [4x Secondary Turret]. Book Options: Vehicles Lite ground speed, Vehicles Expansion stall speed. -HJC] ============================== Send all submissions or mailing list changes or problems to ogre@sjgames.com Archives for this mailing list may be found at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/ General online support for the OGRE game is at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave and other products mentioned here are trademarks or registered trademarks of Steve Jackson Games. All rights are reserved by SJ Games. This material is used here in accordance with the SJ Games online policy at http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html