====== OGRE Digest, March 4th, 2003 (Last: March 2nd) ======== ===== Strategic Game From: "Chris French" ===== Ogre Maps From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com ===== Monster Games From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com ===== Underwater Combat From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com From: "Paul Chapman" From: David Morse ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Strategic Game > You strategic game makers should definately read Andrew Walters' essay: > http://www.geocities.com/candrewwalters/Ogre/StategicOgres.html > Its a shoe-in for "The Ogre Book, volume 2". > > I tried my hand a bit at making such a game, but immediately hit a > problem: I wanted Ogre counters to represent indivdual Ogres, and I > wanted those counters to be good relative to conventional units, but in > order to do that the conventional unit counters had to be companies or > battillions(?), and when you're staring at a map of, say, France, its > painfully clear that there are going to be far too many counters on the > map to be fun. Any advice? Considering the number of battalions involved in WW2, any France-sized strategic BG is going to be a counter-hog. (Not sure if the Last War had more or fewer units involved.) > A thought just hit me: why play a game with a map of Europe, why not > play a game with, say, The Whole World, more Axis & Allies style. (or > Sid Meir's Civilsation). > Borrowing from Vonnegut, suppose the Chinese developed mass > interplanetary colinization first, and simply removed themselves from > Earth. They would win. But if the Combine also conquors the world, > then they too would win. I have a scenario based on this very concept. However, it's meant to be played using _Orbit War_.... (I'm also trying to cobble up a "OGREs In Space" game, but the I-go-you-go movement style doesn't work well with that kind of game.) > In this case they couldn't make the decision to surrender because they > were unconcious (disabled). And their battle computers weren't cutting > them any slack. :( Then the armor just pops back to "intact" mode in a turn, and the INF are right back where they started. > [Firing a gun becomes a lot more complex when the barrel is full of > water while the missiles swim out of the racks on their own like > torpedoes. -HJC] Not an electromagnetic gun -- the mag rings just shove the bullet down the barrel, and the water has to make room. (And since the mininukes don't use contact warheads, water pressure is no big deal.) > [Yes, but Ogres themselves are solid blocks of armor and the nukes use > tiny little armor piercing jets instead of giant explosions. -HJC] That's nice. I was talking about INf and armor. (Altho' OGRE externals should probably suffer as well -- "The blast spared my internals, control, but now all my gun barrels are pretzeled.") Water is not healthy for things hiding from explosions -- of any kind. > [Rangers move 7 and you should think in terms of road movement in GEV. 1) No roads in _Battlesuit_. 2) As I said in the article, the speed of a squad is defined by its *SLOWEST* unit(s), meaning the Standard suits. > Plus you should consider that the grunts can move very quickly for a > few seconds at a rate they would not maintain moving in a straight line > for minutes and hope to survive. -HJC] That's not rendered in _OGRE_ or _GEV_, so it cannot be fac- tored in. Also, as you say, it's a short-term sprint -- _O_ turns run 4 minutes, so any sprint will be balanced by a rest, which equal- izes out to Normal Movement. CF ============================== From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com Subject: Ogre Maps << > Some maps were free, the last time I checked. Most were > cheap. Some are from WW II, which may be interesting, > as well. Adding a hex grid should not prove too difficult. Assuming 1.5 kM will appear as anything besides a dot on the map. >> The USGS produces maps in almost any scale you could want. I bought one of Bellefonte, PA because my ex-house was on it. As a measurable rectangle... Ad Astra! Stan Leghorn ============================== From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com Subject: Monster Games << > 1.000 units? When you look at all the things people have > come up with, it's quite large. 960 was the last I heard, > right here a couple of years ago. Figured it grew... Wha? I admit I haven't been on the list that long, but how in hell did someone manage to get 960 pieces onto a playing area? >> Using SPI game maps, it would not be impossible. Wonder what kind of map the scenario for the attack on Gibraltor that was mentioned last year was on? Probably home-made, but there was a scenario in an S&T that covered it, IIRC... Ad Astra! Stan Leghorn ============================== From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com Subject: Underwater Combat << I think you're missing my point here. If an OGRE can shoot at a target with missiles while underwater, what's stopping it using the rest of its firepower. >> The missiles can accelerate AFTER launch. The mass drivers HAVE to impart all velocity before the round leaves the barrel. Thus, the missile won't splat against the water while an artillery shell would. Video example in Sea Hunt of this is why skin divers use spear guns instead of regular guns. Bullets go about 6-8 feet in the water... Ad Astra! Stan Leghorn ===== From: "Paul Chapman" Subject: Underwater Combat > From: stephan beal > "Fight equally well" implies that DEF is NOT modified, since DEF is half of > the inputs for the combat ratio calculation (i.e., a "fight"). (i'm going off > the DEF bonus which Henry implies here, but i don't have Minis, so i don't > know if this is an explicite rule in OM.) OM does not give Marines any DEF bonus, other than the normal immunities when submerged. > "Equally", by it's very definition, means "no difference." In this sense, > because of the way Marines are defined, the basis off of which we define > "equally" is "the same as infantry", which implies "equal to land-based > combat." Yes. > Okay, from that logic it would imply that "equally well" means a Marine may > fight while "in" water. However, "in" water is a whole other can of lexical > worms: > > "In water" does NOT necessarily translate to "submerged" - you're "in the Correct, the phrase is ambiguous. However, OM explicitly clarifies it -- Marines can submerge. > If we're going to say that Marines "in" water are assumed to be submerged, > then i must argue that marines "in" water may not be attacked except under > the same conditions as a submerged Ogre can. i.e., if a GEV can't attack an > Ogre which is "in" the water, why can he attack a marine which is "in" the > water? Marines can choose to end their move submerged. > The "on (or in) water", to me, has always implied that marines could shoot at > (for example) a passing/overrunning hovercraft or a land-locked unit a hex > away, but the rules for the Ogres are pretty clear on the fact that Ogres > may, when underwater, only be attacked by HWZ, Ogre Missiles: > > GEV 6.113: An Ogre submerged... may not be attacked except by Howitzer, Mobile > Howitzers, and Ogre missiles. > > (However, to be fair: Marines didn't exist when that text was published. On > the other hand, marine weapons are NOWHERE near the caliber of the M/HWZ, so > the implication is that they cannot attack submerged Ogres.) However, the marine weapons are specially modified to work underwater. OM says, "...units under water may be attacked only by Marines (at normal strength),..." > If we're going to allow marines to attack underwater Ogres based on the > above explanation of "fight equally well", then i must argue that we must > allow GEVs to do the same, because Steve Jackson wrote thusly: > > GEV 6.113: A GEV on water attacks and defends normally. > > That sounds like the same explanation as the Marines. Okay, it's minus the > "(or in)" qualifier, but that qualifier would seem to be of no functional > difference (at least in the non-minis version, which is my only point of > reference). A GEV isn't underwater. [And the phrase does not say "in water", just "on water", hence the difference from Marines who are bi-modal swingers. -HJC] > > Does this make the Marines worth more than their listed 4 vp cost? > > Possibly, and perhaps even probably. Mark that down as "clarify and > > re-playtest for OM2." > > Don't forget the "paper version"! (Some of us don't use the minis - too > expensive to ship overseas and not enough space in small European apartments > to play. Hell, for that matter there's not enough space on the small European > streets to play OM.) Why do we need two sets of rules? _One_ book, _one_ set of rules, covering _one_ world. Realistically, the primary differences between OM and Ogre/GEV amount to "OM switches 1 hex to 2" and has more pages." > > > The terrain effects matrix implies this by NOT mentioning the superheavy > > > at all... > ... > > > [And then it was fixed in the errata at > > > http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/errata/deluxe-gev.html -HJC] > > > > "Terrain Effects Table: The Water row of the Heavy Tank, Superheavy Tank, > > Ogre column has a misprint. The HVY cannot enter. The SHVY behaves as an > > Ogre." > > > > To me that pretty clearly says the SHVY can move in water. > > So what's the official verdict on that? i cannot interpret the published texts > (or the errata) in any way other than "SHVYs may move in water [as an Ogre]." Right. > After all, they *explicitely* move "as an Ogre" and nowhere is it even > implied that they cannot enter water. (Oh, man, is that "in" the water or > "on" the water? Okay, seeing as tanks generally do not float (but Marines > tend to), i think we can safely assume they're "under" water. ;) Yes, underwater and defenseless. [This has been an official message from Steve Jackson Games' Miniatures Division.] Paul Chapman http://www.sjgames.com/minis Miniatures Division Manager Steve Jackson Games paul@sjgames.com ===== [But Ogres can explicitly use their missiles in underwater overruns, correct? Hey, I'm game for a comprehensive rulebook that covers both hexes and tape measures if SJ is. -HJC] ============================== From: David Morse Subject: Underwater Combat > o/~ Be my guest, be my guest/ > Put the theory to the test/ > I drop nukes into the water/ > And let pressure do the rest! o/~ > > [Yes, but Ogres themselves are solid blocks of armor and the nukes use > tiny little armor piercing jets instead of giant explosions. -HJC] The poor little marines aren't so lucky. Someone composing a filk song to backup their argument has to be some sort of Ogre-list record. :P ============================= Send all submissions or mailing list changes or problems to ogre@sjgames.com Archives for this mailing list may be found at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/ General online support for the OGRE game is at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave and other products mentioned here are trademarks or registered trademarks of Steve Jackson Games. 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