====== OGRE Digest, March 12th, 2003 (Last: March 9th) ======== ===== Strategic Ogre From: "Herb Diehr" From: "Chris French" ===== Realtime automated Ogre Digest? From: David Morse From: stephan beal ===== Laser tower minis From: David Morse ===== Revetments in terrain From: David Barker ===== Underwater Combat From: "Chris French" ===== Missile GEV and the breakthrough wonder-defense From: "Chris French" ===== Megacon Macrotures From: "Chris French" ===== Megacon Macrotures From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com ===== Die Another Day From: "Chris French" ===== Future of OGRE Minis rules From: Sethkimmel@aol.com ===== Superheavy ramming unification From: David Morse ===== Stacking article From: David Morse ============================== From: "Herb Diehr" Subject: Strategic Ogre There is another way to look at armies in the Last War... While there may be a considerable force on each side, each 'province' could just list the units there until moved. Strategic movement being what it will be, most units are able to be held 'in reserve'. What we often see is the leading element shock troops fighting the mobile elite. However, I believe many of the units would be non-BPC still, due to its incredible expense and limited quantities made. So, you really do not have to keep track of all of the conventional forces as such, but rather, as 'points' in reserve or holding forces. No country has enough assets to fully equip their forces with GEV-style units, so conventional units still exist. These would be the units doing most of the fighting and dying, with 'gloves and eyes' of BPC. The units in Ogre. So, what's needed potentially, would be a world map with 'provinces' shaped to allow defense vs coastal incursions and reserve forces. The reserves are just points, with maybe 200 BN's of BPC units around the world and Ogres kept track of individually. Some other assets (BPC manufacturing sites, Factories, research facilities, cities and probably some other things as well). If the LW was really as large in BPC as is being thought here, there would be no world. Just too much firepower all over. So, since vast areas are relatively unscathed, there must be some other solution. Also, this is much more playable. As far as 960 units on one map, that's silly. I meant 960 different types of units to choose from, of course, to put 40 or so on a map. Could be the wrong number, of course; there sure are a lot, though, when you look at all of the unofficial units out there, which is what I meant. Sorry for being obtuse. >Ogre Scenarios are on the scale of >PanzerBlitz. I had heard someone had >done a PB simulation of the battle of the >Bulge, but I would hate to try to >do that... WOW! Largest PB I ever had was two armies vs two armies (and I thought that was a bit much!) Herb Diehr ===== From: "Chris French" Subject: Strategic Game > From: David Morse > > I gave some thought to that: > > WWII Last War > Small states Continent+ sized states > Low pop.den states Mexico City. 'Nuff said. > "We can do it" chick Autofacs! > Boot camp Boot camp + Hypno-training > 6 year war 30 year war > 1-3 front wars 3-5 front wars > > All in all I think it means the Last War has more units in country at > any given time. YMMV. Maybe more overall, but considering the expense of a LW unit (which could easily slaughter an entire WW2 army), I'd think the states wouldn't be able to afford them, even with the so- called "economies of scale" available to the Big Four. > > While we're on the subject, I often think that by 2050 Moore's law has > pretty much stopped. I think your point about advances in one area being cancelled out by advances in the opposing area explains what's going on. God forbid we get into _SFB_-level anal-retentivity and figure out exactly when what items became available, tho'.... > Someone pointed out to me that between 1900 and 1970, aviation had been > undergoing a Moore's law shaped increase in capability. Then as far as > passenger technology went, it stopped. Dead. Yes -- because the weakest link in the process was the human element. In terms of passengers, Joe Average could not deal with the G-forces involved in a LA-to-Tokyo-in-1-hour flight; in piloting terms -- well, most people can barely drive a car (a 2-dimensional process), and flying involves that whole up/ down thing.... :) So the people who thought future humans would be flying everywhere had the right idea -- they just forgot that 99% of humanity, to put it bluntly, suck. > Ever notice how nothing really gets done in the Last War? I mean, yeah > Britain goes into civil disorder and is conquored, and yeah the PE > forgot to turn on their battle computers in 2093, but essentially about > as much turf changed hands in the first 20 years of LW as in any given > year of WW2. Funny thing that, since there were huge technological seesaws The impression I got from the flavor text suggests that most of the tech for LW was solidly in place when the balloon went up, and tech development ceased after that. > Superheavies in O.hex are awesome weapons. Superheavies in O.mini are > ravening, unstoppable, Ogre smiting God weapons. Care to unify the two? Sure -- then give me the equivalent in LGEVs on open terrain. :) > From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com > As many units, but the number of people/vehicals will be far lower per > unit than WW2. At a guess, 12 Ogres would be considered a "division" and have > nearly the firepower of a WW2 ARMY... As I said above: A single _O_ armor unit could eradicate an entire WW2 army, and not even get its paint scratched. (All those nuclear shells and BPC....) > > Ogre Scenarios are on the scale of PanzerBlitz. I had heard someone had > done a PB simulation of the battle of the Bulge, but I would hate to try to > do that... Yuck. Talk about "the game on the edge of forever".... ============================== From: David Morse Subject: Realtime automated Ogre Digest? > And Sage has offered to convert this list over to a conventional >automatic mailing list. What do you'll think of removing the moderator >from slowing the neutrons down so you'll get instaneous response? There is already an unmoderated, instant list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ogre-GEV/ . While sometimes I like it, of late I'm sending more content at this list, because I like it better. I think as long as HJC is willing to do the moderation, we should take advantage of it. It keeps things somehow ... genteel. > Might give me some more time to arrange things topically so that >instead of saying read the entire archive, I could could point somebody at >a specific index section. -HJC] Of course that would be nice, but you can also just tell them what to search for in the document. I.e. search for "bill gates". ===== From: stephan beal Subject: Realtime automated Ogre Digest? > And Sage has offered to convert this list over to a conventional > automatic mailing list. What do you'll think of removing the moderator > from slowing the neutrons down so you'll get instaneous response? i'm all for it. NOT because of any beef with how the list is run, but because i feel that the manual labor you [Henry] have to go through to manage the list is something that a computer is built to do. i.e., you've got better ways to expend your energy. -- ----- stephan ============================== From: David Morse Subject: Laser tower minis > [Some final notes, Michelle Barrett of WH23 has the following comment. > > "Ogre Miniatures: Combine Set 9 - Lasers and Laser Tower > http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?SJG10-2109 We found four copies hiding > amongst other sets; the figures in this set are not currently available as > individual miniatures." What!? Does that mean these models are finally, officially released? Will there ever be more than four sets made? These guys have been "Real Soon Now" for a year... - Konfused in Kentucky ===== [As they're now sold out, I'll assume that everybody who wants lasers put their order in already. (Now to see if the turret fits on a Mk I...) -HJC] ============================== From: David Barker Subject: Revetments in terrain Please could you clarify the use of revetments in terrain. Revetments add 2 to the defense of the covered unit, is this before multiples are applied for terrain, so a missile tank in a revetment in a town hex is (D2+2)x2=8 ? ===== [In general Ogre uses My Dear Aunt Sally, so multiply first then add. -HJC] ============================= From: "Chris French" Subject: Underwater Combat > From: stephan beal > > i'd be /all for/ a single-source set of rules, but i am a bit leary: any minis > game is inherently more complex, and i wonder how such a rules consolidation > would "break" the hex rules, just as i wonder how some of the hex game's > simplifications would overly-simplify OM. My greatest concern is breaking > either game by shoe-horning in rules which may be an inherent part of the > *format* of the game. An off-the-cuff example of this might be the handling > of the "extra bits of terrain" which "spill over" outside of a hex (i.e., > cities and forests). Certainly those have some affect on play in OM(?), but > explicitely have no effect on play in Ogre/hex. If memory serves me correctly, _OM_ does say that there has to be a specific demarcation line between terrain types somewhere along the border, and that "extraneous" bits are just decorative. > [Anybody for supercavitating main battery shells? -HJC] I'll just assume shells have that already. Hell, considering modern pollution levels, river water probably is magnetic.... :) "Here at Exxon, we intend to polyglycoat the surface of the ocean by the year 2000. Oil spills can just be wiped off the top. Of course, every six months citizens will have to band together to burp the coastlines...." ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Missile GEV and the breakthrough wonder-defense > From: David Morse > Henry, > With "clarification" of GEV-water-boundary rules, I think you'll find > more demand for your 2/3 M3-2 D2 Missile GEV now... Where is this? > [They're even fun as about one third of a fuzzy on the Ogre map > against wallflower Ogres. > > "We can dance, even if you don't want to. We can blow your treads away. > Cause your treads won't dance and if they won't dance then we'll > blow them all awaaaay. > Hover dance, hover dance. Everything's under control." [contemplates launching CM strike at Mr. Cobb for that image] o/~ I say, give it up, give it up/ GEVs 're takin' their toll/ Tanks are crap, tanks are crap/ Even ones with remote control/ I've been nice, I've been good/ Please don't do this to me/ Shut 'em off, shut 'em off/ I don't wanna have to play/ The OGRE Bunch, oh not the OGRE Bunch/ Please not the OGRE Bunch... o/~ ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Megacon Macrotures > From: Servitor@aol.com > Hi all. Megacon was great. Sorry that no one from the list could make Ogre > Macrotures, we had a blast. (Pun fully intended) Ogres lost due to letting > too many GEVs survive, which came back to haunt them later. Once again, the > SHVYs acted as "missile sinks", sucking up a total of three missiles each. > These would have been better spent killing six (or more) GEVs. If I ever > start letting INF hitch rides on tanks like they do in the rules, it will be > hell on the Ogres. Missiles on GEVs? Does this not demonstrate just how lousy OGRE missiles really are? Give OGRE missiles proper nuke-tipped missiles, and watch the Fuzzy-Wuzzies s*** themselves like a 6-month-old at a Texas chili cookoff. > Ogre Macrotures possibly forthcoming from SJ Games? WOOT!! WOOT!! (If > you're not a First Person Shooter enthusiast, never mind.) You better > believe I will be buying them! (Huh?, Mr. "original Macrotures" boy is going > to buy SJ OGRE Macros? Why?) 'Cause, MY macrotures are 1/35th scale. While > they look impressive as hell, they are also hell to lug around. (Two giant > tool-box sized cases, one for the Ogres and HWZs and the other for the armor. > As well as two smaller cases for rulebooks, INF and other odds and ends.) > So 1/60th scale macros will be MUCH easier for me (and other folks) to lug > around in sizeable numbers. Enough so (I hope) that folks will consider > bringing them to conventions to play against others. Umm, am I the only person here who thinks the very idea of "miniatures games" that require ENTIRE FREAKING BACK- YARDS TO PLAY ON is as insane as the people involved in such games? Honestly, what's wrong with a game that only requires annex- ation of a dinner table? > (Since HWZs fire very large > warhead "smart-missiles" these would have more blast effect than direct fire > capability.) Even a directed nuclear blast (and how in hell does one do *that*, I ask of thee?) is going to cause a large blast wave. > And Sage has offered to convert this list over to a conventional > automatic mailing list. What do you'll think of removing the moderator > from slowing the neutrons down so you'll get instaneous response? I prefer the list just as it is. CF ===== From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com Subject: Megacon Macrotures << As well as two smaller cases for rulebooks, INF and other odds and ends.) So 1/60th scale macros will be MUCH easier for me (and other folks) to lug around in sizeable numbers. Enough so (I hope) that folks will consider bringing them to conventions to play against others. >> Just a curious thought, but why go with 1/60th when most of the mini figs out there are 1/72nd? Industry standards would help everyone as you could use any companies' figures in any game system... Ad Astra! Stan Leghorn ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Die Another Day One other thing: Am I the only person who saw the opening of _Die Another Day_ and thought, "Where's an OGRE when it's needed?" CF ===== [I'm still waiting for OGRE, the anime. -HJC] ============================== From: Sethkimmel@aol.com Subject: Future of OGRE Minis rules > 12 years since the original OM printing, and there has been > no visible merging of these rules sets. Indeed, they only seem to get > further > and further apart - marines and cruise missiles being points which have > come > up repeatedly. i'm /not complaining/ that we have seen no "merging > activity" > on this front, i only point that out to show that we, the average players, > have no reason to believe that such a convergence is planned I think that the large maps in Deluxe Ogre/GEV is the deathnell for OM. I only bought the OM rules when I bought the Ral Partha minis (duh...). with the large maps; I get my cake and eat it too (minis using hex rules...:-) ). Fortunately, I have ACW and Napoleonics for my Geo-hex...:-) ============================== From: David Morse Subject: Superheavy ramming unification > Superheavies in O.hex are awesome weapons. Superheavies in O.mini are > ravening, unstoppable, Ogre smiting God weapons. Care to unify the two? > > [Simple, Superheavies do 3 thread units damage when ramming or rammed > by an Ogre and then they die. (Of whiplash if nothing else.) -HJC] Sounds right to me. Can a desperate superheavy initiate the ram itself? What happens if the Ogre arrives at the ramming stage with 2 or 1 treads left? Does the SHVY live in that case? ===== [Nope, they smother slowly under the immobile Ogre. -HJC] ============================== From: David Morse Subject: Stacking article http://66.93.230.14/~dm/ogre/stacking.html Here is an article that helps make battlefield decisions about when to stack. For example, suppose you can get up to four GEVs into a city hex, and your opponnent will be able to get three heavy tanks capable to get the first shot on them. How many GEVs can you expect to have operational at the start of your next fire phase? On average, 1.09 will be undamaged, 1.54 will be disabled, and 1.38 will get blown up. ============================= Send all submissions or mailing list changes or problems to ogre@sjgames.com Archives for this mailing list may be found at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/ General online support for the OGRE game is at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave and other products mentioned here are trademarks or registered trademarks of Steve Jackson Games. All rights are reserved by SJ Games. This material is used here in accordance with the SJ Games online policy at http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html