====== OGRE Digest, March 16th, 2003 (Last: March 12th) ======== ===== Strategic Ogre From: "Chris French" From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com From: David Morse ===== Realtime automated Ogre Digest? From: "Chris French" From: stephan beal From: Kirk Hunt ===== Megacon Macrotures From: goldman@visi.com (Goldman of Chaos) From: "Chris French" ===== Revetments in terrain From: David Barker ===== Re: Shaped Nuclear Explosions From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com ===== engineers From: David Morse ===== Ogre the Anime From: reaper28i ===== _OGRE_/_Twilight:2000_ crossover From: "Chris French" ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Strategic Ogre > From: "Herb Diehr" > > If the LW was really as large in BPC as is being thought here, there would > be no world. Just too much firepower all over. So, since vast areas are > relatively unscathed, there must be some other solution. Also, this is > much more playable. Well, also realize that the areas being fought over were compar- atively small. Someone once pointed out that the "front line" in the US Civil War was longer than the WW2 Eastern Front ever was, with a fraction of the units involved (and that was pre- armor). Europe is tiny. The Far East simply doesn't have the people-per-space for large battles (figure most of the LW Chi- nese units are Militia...). And South America simply isn't armor terrain. Between this, the cost of first-line armor and INF, and the general uselessness of non-BPC-equipped units, I'd be in- clined to say that what battles there were in the Last War were more of "The Thin BPC Line" than Kursk. > As far as 960 units on one map, that's silly. I meant 960 different types > of units to choose from, of course, to put 40 or so on a map. Could be the > wrong number, of course; there sure are a lot, though, when you look at all > of the unofficial units out there, which is what I meant. Sorry for being > obtuse. 960 different unit types? Talk about "the agony of choice". As for _O_ units -- let's stick with the Official Units for now. ===== From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com Subject: Strategic Ogre << If the LW was really as large in BPC as is being thought here, there would be no world. Just too much firepower all over. So, since vast areas are relatively unscathed, there must be some other solution. Also, this is much more playable. >> There is an assumption in the Ogreverse that there is limited radioactive fallout generated by the weapons used in the final war. Equally possible is that the Factory States are built around UNDERGROUND production facilities, no matter what the illustrations show. China built a massive underground city beneath Beijing. With the world moving closer to a possible nuclear war, they might just start to clean it up and put it to use. And other nations would likely follow. Agriculture would become Algae vats with flavorings(maybe). The surface in combat areas would look like a moonscape, but there was an attempt to limit civilian casualties as those civilians could operate the factories needed to continue the war. Ad Astra! Stan Leghorn ===== From: David Morse Subject: Strategic Ogre > From: "Chris French" >>From: David Morse >>All in all I think it means the Last War has more units in country at >>any given time. YMMV. > > > Maybe more overall, but considering the expense of a LW unit > (which could easily slaughter an entire WW2 army), I'd think > the states wouldn't be able to afford them, even with the so- > called "economies of scale" available to the Big Four. Well, we need to talk about the concept of "wealth" in the last war. Economics will change *DRASTICALLY* with the creation of autofacs. The way I see it, autofacs will make the cost of mass produced things very low. Y'know how you can buy a portable CD player (with an embedded laser, rechargable power supply, etc) for $10? Well autofacs are going to do to the Heavy Tank what Japan has done for personal music playback. The raw materiels are going to be expensive. The crew is going to be expensive. The factory's going to be hella expensive. But the actual tanks are going to be produced from their equivalent weight in fancy rocks! I read some SJ notes on "Gurps factory states" a while back, and that gave me the above impression. Plus the flavor text in "Operation Newspaper" goes the same way: if you actually feared the industrial output of a factory, why damage it so it could be repaired? Instead just burn it to the ground. However if you want to drain the enemy economy, just damage it, thus they'll potentially invest real effort in repairing the factory. The raw materiels that would have been consumed in the downtime are perhaps rerouted to the missile tank factory down the street. Well ok maybe this isn't water-tight logic. In fact I'm pretty sure it isn't. I'll just throw it out there and see if it floats. By the way, there's a || strategic game discussion on the Ogre Message Boards http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/board/group.cgi?1 Its taking a different tack than what's going on here. > The impression I got from the flavor text suggests that most of > the tech for LW was solidly in place when the balloon went up, > and tech development ceased after that. I guess so, with the exception of Ogres. >>Superheavies in O.hex are awesome weapons. Superheavies in O.mini are >>ravening, unstoppable, Ogre smiting God weapons. Care to unify the two? > > > Sure -- then give me the equivalent in LGEVs on open terrain. :) My money's on the superheavy! :) ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Realtime automated Ogre Digest? > From: stephan beal > > i'm all for it. NOT because of any beef with how the list is run, but because > i feel that the manual labor you [Henry] have to go through to manage the > list is something that a computer is built to do. i.e., you've got better > ways to expend your energy. I'd also like to keep Mr. Cobb involved -- some sort of order must be kept, and he's the most sane moderator I've encounter- ed (do not get me started on the a** running the _B5_ moder- ated group...). > [In general Ogre uses My Dear Aunt Sally, so multiply first then add. > -HJC] (For those who have forgotten 3rd-grade Arithmetic, that's "Multiply Divide Add Subtract", the "correct" order in which to perform mathematical operations. :) ) ===== From: stephan beal Subject: Realtime automated Ogre Digest? > From: David Morse > > There is already an unmoderated, instant list at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ogre-GEV/ . While sometimes I like it, of > late I'm sending more content at this list, because I like it better. I > think as long as HJC is willing to do the moderation, we should take > advantage of it. It keeps things somehow ... genteel. That's an excellent point. i'd like to change my vote to side with David on that. i've dropped out of several lists which i rather enjoyed being on simply because the flames often get more heated then i care to waste my time with. This list, OTOH, is one of the few which seems to always remain tolerably civil. -- ----- stephan ===== From: Kirk Hunt Subject: Realtime automated Ogre Digest? I like this list as is. Mr. French's point that Henry could automate it some what is accurate. I would rather than a reasonable human, or Henry, continue to moderate the list. ============================== From: goldman@visi.com (Goldman of Chaos) Subject: Megacon Macrotures > From: "Chris French" > > Umm, am I the only person here who thinks the very idea of > "miniatures games" that require ENTIRE FREAKING BACK- > YARDS TO PLAY ON is as insane as the people involved in > such games? I just want a Mark V to guard my office cube. Although I'll have to dress it up like the Ogre that lost to one of my cats. Matt ===== From: "Chris French" Subject: Megacon Macrotures > From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com > > Just a curious thought, but why go with 1/60th when most of the mini figs > out there are 1/72nd? Industry standards would help everyone as you could > use any companies' figures in any game system... There's more scales than just what appears in a model shop: http://www.plastruct.com has all sorts of scales available, including a few I'd never heard of before. (I need to snag some 1/200 stuff for _CW_ events.) > [I'm still waiting for OGRE, the anime. -HJC] Good lord, *NO*. _O_ is incoherent enough, without adding an anime-style "plot". :) OTOH: _OGRE BattleTech_, with BPC 'Mechs.... >:) > [Nope, they smother slowly under the immobile Ogre. -HJC] Since all vehicles in _O_ have some sort of "autopilot" feature, why can't the crews do a "MegaForce Special"? (That is, the crew sets the autopilot to "suicide ram", then bails out and wat- ches the fireworks from a distance?) Since the vehicle gets X'd no matter what, it wouldn't be that big a whoop. CF ===== [Yeah, but a vehicle crew without battlesuits doesn't rate a combat factor so they don't need a counter. -HJC] ============================== From: David Barker Subject: Revetments in terrain Being a Brit I haven't a clue who My Dear Aunt Sally is, but I can't fault yours maths (that's "math" for those of you west of the Atlantic). However, if the terrain modifier is applied before the revetment bonus, doesn't this imply that it is just as easy to destroy a revetment in a town as in a clear hex, due to simultaneous attack on revetment (d2)? Or would you treat the attack on the revetment as subject to (command post) terrain modifiers, even though the revetment bonus is not subject to terrain? ===== [Well, the defense of the revetment itself shouldn't depend on the type of unit that was in it. So while infantry inside the revetment are at triple defense in cities the revet itself is only doubled. So 3/1 infantry in a revetment in a town hex. The inf are def 11 and the revetment is def 4. An Ogre firing 12 APs from the next hex would kill the inf on a 6, but not touch the town hex or the revetment. -HJC] ============================== From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com Subject: Re: Shaped Nuclear Explosions << Even a directed nuclear blast (and how in hell does one do *that*, I ask of thee?) is going to cause a large blast wave. >> BLATANT PLUG! Project Orion, the True Story of the Atomic Spaceship, by George Dyson from Henry Holt & Co. Chapter 12 covers how to focus much of the power of a nuclear explosion onto a small area. Original design was to optimize the Orion propulsion, but it can be used to dig out hard targets. Like missile silos or the hiding places of deranged dictators... Ad Astra! Stan Leghorn ============================== From: David Morse Subject: engineers I'm thinking about engies. I'm kinda underwhelmed with them at the moment. Yeah revetments are neat and all that, but I simply saddle up in a GEV and force them to come out and fight in the clear. What if they could build the 2085 equivalent of tank traps: GEV Traps. This is just an artificial eight meter wide, two meter deep trench created by liberal application of explosives. It takes two squad-turns to build a GEV-trap along a given hex-side. Thereafter treat the hex-side as if it were a stream - thus slightly annoying to light tanks and GEVs, as they have to stop and use their nukes to blast a ramps out of each side of the trench. GEV traps can also be made one way by controlling the slope: ONE WAY> ___ ____ | ____/ | __/ |__/ NO WAY> ___ ______ | | | | |________| Yes I realize that for two squads of engineers to clear a .8 mile hexside in four minutes would require each man clear 25 yards a minute. Clearly he's got to be using some fantastic dedicated tools for just this kind of job. ============================== From: reaper28i Subject: Ogre the Anime I too would love to see OGRE the anime feature film, or series (you never know..). I think that possibly you'd have to have some self-aware OGREs to add plot interest etc. (Oh no, back to BOLOs again....) Cheers, Mark. ===== [Clearly the "it's alive" moment is the biggest event in the Ogreverse. Wouldn't it be great if Masamune Shirow could be talked into drawing the manga? The first volume could be the battlefield grind. The second volume could be the moment of self awareness. (This happened several times on the various sides, so why not show the Nihon version of this story?) And the third volume would be the fall of man. (Told from the point of view of a Nihon unit in Amewrica.) -HJC] ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: _OGRE_/_Twilight:2000_ crossover Has anyone else ever tried this, or is the very idea far too de- pressing to consider? "Fifth Division's gone, sir." "Right -- send in Unit 494." 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