====== OGRE Digest, March 26th, 2003 (Last: March 25th) ======== ===== playtest Mk VI pricing From: David Morse From: "Paul Chapman" ===== Strategic Ogre From: stephan beal From: "Chris French" ============================== From: David Morse Subject: playtest Mk VI pricing > From: David Morse > Does anyone else think 250 victory points for the playtest Mark VI seems > about 20 VP too high? > > Playtest Mark VI: 3 racks, 12 internal missiles, 6 external missiles, 3 > main, 6 secondary, 16 AP, 75 treads @ M3 > > Mark III & Mark V: 8 external missiles, 3 main, 10 secondary, 20 AP, 105 > treads: 250 VP. > > The 3 under-loaded missile racks about balance the duo's 2 extra > external missiles and 4 extra secondaries. But then the duo has 30 > more treads and way more AP, plus the ability to split its forces, which > is always handy when being attacked by GEVs. Ayup, I think 250 VP is > too high for the ol' playtest VI. > > [The tread advantage is deceptive because the Mk VI rams so much better > than the other Ogres. See OM35 for Mk VIs crumbling up superheavy tanks > for the recycling bin. -HJC] Right, well that all depends on which overrun rules you're using. If you're using Ogre overruns then sure it balances out. If you're using GEV, then the VI shouldn't overrun until it has a 2-1 gun advantage. This will never happen if the other player is smart and stacks his ogres. If playing with Ogre overrun rules, then yeah, its more fair, since on average the VI does 1.3 tread damage for every 1 it takes. But there's more to VP comparison than a mano-a-mano slugging match. Its also important to consider performance versus armor, infantry, etcetera. 6d6 ramming damage hardly matters against a light tank in any case, whereas two Ogres run them over twice as fast. :) ===== From: "Paul Chapman" Subject: playtest Mk VI pricing > [The tread advantage is deceptive because the Mk VI rams so much better > than the other Ogres. See OM35 for Mk VIs crumbling up superheavy tanks > for the recycling bin. -HJC] Specifically, the Mk. VI does 6 dice of tread damage to any Ogre it rams, except the Mk. I, which is completely destroyed. All other units rammed by the Mk. VI are instantly destroyed. Watch http://www.sjgames.com/miniatures and http://www.sjgames.com/ogre over the next couple of days for some shots of the Mk. VI. [This has been an official message from Steve Jackson Games' Miniatures Division.] Paul Chapman http://www.sjgames.com/minis Miniatures Division Manager Steve Jackson Games paul@sjgames.com ============================== From: stephan beal Subject: Strategic Ogre > From: David Morse > their spam. After the dawn of the Factory States Era, they reley on the > AIs to make long term strategic decisions This point could bring up some interesting sociological effects. i doubt that most humans would like the idea of being "led by a machine", and i suspect that leadership would attempt to keep such a fact from becoming public knowledge. Having to hide such a "significant factor" would, almost necessarily, breed a pretty paranoid culture amongst those who know and those who those-who-know feel shouldn't know (does that make sense?). The social/cultural implications of a machine doing the thinking/planning are tremendous, and it's not a point to be introduced lightly into any near-future setting. OTOH, if the culture is such that they have been knowingly living under machine rule/guidance for a long time (2+ generations), it's probably no biggie (in fact, they might be appalled to find out that a /human/ does the thinking, behind the scenes, ever since a spare part couldn't be found after the last "maintenance event"!). -- ----- stephan ===== From: "Chris French" Subject: Strategic Ogre > From: David Morse > Biphase carbide: sounds like carbon to me. We're not hurting for that, > here on Earth. :) OK, so we grind up the corpses from the battlefields.... >:) Seriously: What is BPC made of (ostensibly)? Pretty much any- thing that tough would have to be apocalyptically (literally) ex- pensive, which leaves out Kursk-like massed tank battles. > Soldiers still have their jobs, and that sets a precedent that can be > extended to the civilian population. Whoopee -- wait until the autofacs start building _Terminator_- style exoskeletons to prop up the battlesuits. (I'm sure at least one of them has seen that flick.) > After the dawn of the Factory States Era, they reley on the > AIs to make long term strategic decisions, but in between these extremes > they still have a niche in figuring out how to grow algae and scavenge > equiment. With all those nukes going off, there's no way any computer is still using "modern" electronics. Even a near-hit* will fry the electronics; the only defense involves so much lead shielding, the vehicle becomes unworkable. That being the case, the autofacs are also going to be using nuke-proof electronics, which leaves out one argument. The other argument goes away even more simply: Has anyone seen any sign that Moore's law is going to hit a wall anytime soon? > The players find out > the factory is building LOTS of AIs, and preparing to "cleanse the > fleshlings". I think the only reason autofacs keep humans around is the same reason some folks buy ant farms.... > So I guess before that there were more conventional economics, where a > heavy tank costs a boatload of money. Bingo. > Hm, I guess my tenuous logic doesn't float. :) > "Operation Newspaper" has always been a bit of a stretch. "Operation Newspaper" is a crock of crap, actually. :) > The SHVY only has to shoot two of the LGEVs to become invincible - even > rolling straight 1s. [...]. That's only if the LGEVs decide to go for a single 1-2. If they split into two 1-2s*, they can try for D results. [*: Bear in mind that the D5 SHVY is more like 2.5 AU than 2.] > [You've seen my design for the Combine LGEV, with the hardpoints on the > wings? Makes the battle agains the Superheavy a lot quicker. This would help. > Speaking of Superheavies, you can buy one for less than the 90 million > Combine dollars that the brain of the Mk I costs. That's just the brain, > no guns, armor or treads included. GO50 says a Factory Worker makes $350 > a month so it'll be a while before we see Rosie the riveter robot. Is that $350/mo. worth it when one realizes that an automated SHVY won't rebel? > [Infantry are very important to the way I do fuzzies. If other people > ignore them I can see why they think the Ogre advanced scenario is > balanced. -HJC] For me, the only purpose INF serves is to make sure that I have enough units left over to score a Decisive Victory. > [OM28 gives rules for Engineers placing big nukes. I would assume that > they place ordinary minefields too, but too slowly to show in game terms. > ("Hurry it up you apes, those are only very sensitive nuclear charges after > all!") There's a German Leopard-based mine vehicle that uses small guns to deploy huge numbers of mines in a short time. Perhaps a new unit is in order? That MSL tank idea is also good. > From: David Morse > Subject: playtest Mk VI pricing > > Does anyone else think 250 victory points for the playtest Mark VI seems > about 20 VP too high? > > Playtest Mark VI: 3 racks, 12 internal missiles, 6 external missiles, 3 > main, 6 secondary, 16 AP, 75 treads @ M3 > > Mark III & Mark V: 8 external missiles, 3 main, 10 secondary, 20 AP, 105 > treads: 250 VP. > > The 3 under-loaded missile racks about balance the duo's 2 extra > external missiles and 4 extra secondaries. But then the duo has 30 > more treads and way more AP, plus the ability to split its forces, which > is always handy when being attacked by GEVs. Ayup, I think 250 VP is > too high for the ol' playtest VI. You have to deduct all of the AP guns -- they are useless in an OGRE-to-OGRE fight. CF ===== [The Mk V is about optimum as an anti-Ogre Ogre, but that's not all it does. As for non revolting AI's, you have read the complete Ogre timeline, no? (Otherwise pick up a copy of GURPS OGRE.) -HJC] ============================== Send all submissions or mailing list changes or problems to ogre@sjgames.com Archives for this mailing list may be found at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/ General online support for the OGRE game is at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave and other products mentioned here are trademarks or registered trademarks of Steve Jackson Games. All rights are reserved by SJ Games. This material is used here in accordance with the SJ Games online policy at http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html