====== OGRE Digest, March 29th, 2003 (Last: March 26th) ======== ===== mines for hexes From: David Morse ===== Strategic Ogre From: "Chris French" From: David Morse ============================== From: David Morse Subject: mines for hexes In Ogre Minis there are some rules for mines, and then Steve expounds on them in "Ask the Ogre" at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/articles/askogre.html . But what's not done is a conversion to ogre.hex. Okay, yer basic square inch of OM mines costs 2 VP. A hex is about 4 square inches. But in practice you can use 2 square inches to block incoming traffic from the important directions. Also, old GEV mines are actually a little fiercer than OM mines (OM do a 1-1 on a die roll of 5 or 6, GEV kill on a 5-6, plus work on INF, but are consumed by being detonated). I don't like having to roll a die to roll a die, so I'll just simplify everything down to this: 1 hex of premium smart mines: Cost: 4 VP. When an enemy armor unit enters a hex, it immediately suffers a 1-2 attack. Infantry are unaffected. Ogres lose 1d6-1 treads. Even if the attack did no damage, you must show the enemy your record of the mine hex. (to ensure fair play) dumb mines: As above but half cost and will attack friendly or enemy units with equal gusto. compromised mines: as premium mines but half cost and its position is known to the enemy even before unit selection. Missile deployed mine: As HJC laid out last issue, but they can be dumb for 2 VP or smart for 3 VP. Upon firing they're compromised, obviously. No unit may carry a number of mines greater than its attack strength. For minesweeping rules see OM. When moving stacks of units in a game with minefields, a player should be careful to specify which order he or she moves his or her units in, so that disputes don't arise. Do not blitely cruise around with a five-stack of GEVs, move them one at a time. Mines do not stack - there's not a doubled effect for having a double density minefield. Obviously the VP cost for mines is ultimately a function of the scenario. In breakthrough three hexes of compromised mines can make the attacker's lives very much harder, and they should be avoided. However in RAID I think they'd be pretty fun. ===== [OM Mines do kill infantry, but not militia. Se OM48. -HJC] ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Strategic Ogre > From: stephan beal > This point could bring up some interesting sociological effects. i doubt > that most humans would like the idea of being "led by a machine", and i > suspect that leadership would attempt to keep such a fact from becoming > public knowledge. Combine was essentially run by computer, and Nihonese could not conceivably care less. (Read _GURPS OGRE_.) > Having to hide such a "significant factor" would, almost > necessarily, breed a pretty paranoid culture amongst those who know and > those who those-who-know feel shouldn't know (does that make sense?). Most of the societies out there already have a cadre of folks who don't like the idea of a certain group running things. The constituents of that cadre varies according to who's in charge at the moment. The Great Unwashed will sit down, shut up, and do as they're told so long as they get food, clothing, shelter, the chance of advancement in society, and someone to blame their troubles on. >The > social/cultural implications of a machine doing the thinking/planning are > tremendous, and it's not a point to be introduced lightly into any > near-future setting. See above. It's only a question of whether the faceless burro- crat who's kept you waiting two hours to file a change-of-ad- dress form is meat or metal. > OTOH, if the culture is such that they have been > knowingly living under machine rule/guidance for a long time (2+ > generations), it's probably no biggie (in fact, they might be appalled to > find out that a /human/ does the thinking, behind the scenes, ever since a > spare part couldn't be found after the last "maintenance event"!). Earlier than that, depending on how soon the older generations get snuffed. The surest way to destroy a culture is to kill every person older than age 3; those younger can be raised however the killers see fit. "Get 'em while they're young." (You can bet I scared the living s*** out of my Social Studies teachers. >:) ) > [The Mk V is about optimum as an anti-Ogre Ogre, but that's not all it > does. My point was that in an OGRE-v.-OGRE fight, Anti-Personnel guns are worthless. Thus, an OGRE-v.-OGRE fight isn't really a fair test. The guy who performed the test basically reinvented the Fuzzy-Wuzzy concept (a single unit of 2X strength is not worth 2X points, as one hit kills it just as dead). > As for non revolting AI's, you have read the complete Ogre timeline, > no? (Otherwise pick up a copy of GURPS OGRE.) -HJC] I have, actually. I wa speaking in terms of a non-sentient unit -- more like the "Lethetic Intelligence" units from _GURPS War Against The Chtorr_, or any of the drones wandering about the battlefield. Once the machine starts thinking, it's going to be as big a pain in the ass as any Teamster. CF ===== [Nope, unlike the Teamsters, you can always pull the plug. -HJC] ============================== From: David Morse Subject: Strategic Ogre >> Soldiers still have their jobs, and that sets a precedent that can be >> extended to the civilian population. > > > Whoopee -- wait until the autofacs start building _Terminator_- > style exoskeletons to prop up the battlesuits. > The other argument goes away even more simply: Has anyone > seen any sign that Moore's law is going to hit a wall anytime > soon? IMO, in the Ogreverse AIs are too expensive, or else they would build LGEVs with Ogre AIs. I think the history of technology is /not/ one of exponential growth. Its one of punctuated equilibrium. Look at the history of aviation. 1900: hot air balloons. 1945: DC-3. 1983: 747 and space shuttle. 2003: 747 and space shuttle. Aviation innovation ain't what it used to be. > > [*: Bear in mind that the D5 SHVY is more like 2.5 AU than 2.] [*: excellent point!] :))) >> [OM28 gives rules for Engineers placing big nukes. I would >> assume that > >> they place ordinary minefields too, but too slowly to show in game >> terms. >> ("Hurry it up you apes, those are only very sensitive nuclear charges > >> after all!") > I'd think even infantry or militia would be capable to press the big red button given enough time. Also, I read that Madagascar is considering deploying combat forces to the "Coalition of the bribed^H^H^Hwilling". Men? No. They're sending a force of 1000 monkeys! They're trained to defuse land mines. (I don't want to know how they "defuse" them). So, what are the Ogre stats for minesweeping monkeys? ===== [Right concept, wrong country. (Check google) It would probally work about as well as the Soviet anti-tank dogs, especially as militia, which are the closest thing to monkeys in Ogre, are ignored by mines. Show http://www.soviet-empire.com/arsenal/army/anti-tank/dog_mine.php to all your PETA pals and dog lovers. Speaking of strange creatures on the battlefield, these are back in stock: http://www.sjgames.com/miniatures/ogre/ogrethulhuset2/ -HJC] ============================== Send all submissions or mailing list changes or problems to ogre@sjgames.com Archives for this mailing list may be found at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/ General online support for the OGRE game is at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave and other products mentioned here are trademarks or registered trademarks of Steve Jackson Games. All rights are reserved by SJ Games. This material is used here in accordance with the SJ Games online policy at http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html