====== OGRE Digest, Sep 2nd, 2003 (Last: Aug 26th) ======== ===== THE noise From: David Morse ===== Making print quality maps From: Ville Tirronen From: stephan ===== OM revision observation From: David Morse ===== radars & jam screens From: David Morse ===== What GEV lacks is blitzkrieg. Doubleblind anyone? From: David Morse ============================== From: David Morse Subject: THE noise Anyone else here grow up playing Ogre against the computer AI on an Apple ][e? I was just remembering the cool noise the computer made when the Ogre Xed your armor. I think I'll start grunting that noise during games, at least until someone throws a mini at my head. zeeeeewSSSSSSSSSsssh! ===== [It was about the same on the C64. -HJC] ============================== From: Ville Tirronen Subject: Making print quality maps >Uh, yeah. Right here!!! Freeware, Shareware, Postcardware, OGREware, what >are we talking here? What is Ogreware? I give it away and someone sends me an ogre? Well. I did consider giving it away for free, though I do appreciate feedback or gifts. For all who are interested, see http://cocoon.it.jyu.fi/~aleator/moinwiki/index.cgi/StrategyGameMapRenderer. Like the software, the wikipage is in dire need of refactoring, but it does contain links to the program and sources you can try out. (Hint: If you reformat and update the wikipage, I'll work on the mapmaker instead :) --- >Does it work with emacs, too? ;) You vile bloatware user scum! How dare you suggest such a thing!? Just kidding, of course it does ;-) ===== [Since Emacs can invoke Peril scripts, everything works with Emacs with enough duck tape elisp applied. (This mailing list is maintained in Emacs.) -HJC] ===== From: stephan Subject: Making print quality maps > From: "Mark S Haynes" ... > > Is there interest for such hack? Enough to warrant me to spend > > further another week to improve it? > > Uh, yeah. Right here!!! Freeware, Shareware, Postcardware, > OGREware, what are we talking here? > I would love to have a decent map maker for my OGRE/G.E.V. games so I > can start saving the custom > maps I've made over the years (even lamination fails after a couple > hundred OGREs have trod across countless times). The QUB project is working on one, called Loubetomy. It's probably the most advanced hex map editor ever created, to be honest. We haven't released a version, but if you're comfortable with using CVS and have a Linux box to run it on, it's there. See some screenshots at: http://qub.sourceforge.net/screenshots/ Look for those with the word "Loubetomy" in the name. If you're into testing/hacking alpha-level software, send us a note at qub-devel@lists.sourceforge.net. :) (i hope the name Loubetomy rings a bell, by the way.) > From: "Chris French" > Subject: Flying Ogres > ... > to sink them. Why should gamers -- most of whom do not have > unlimited cash reserves -- spend $20 - $40 on a game manual, then > have to wait a year for all the bugs to be worked out? This is one of the drivers behind the CounterMoves group (countermoves.sourceforge.net). We've been pretty idle the past few months (real life has a way of interfering, of course), but we release Free games which you can debug and even re-release if you care to. To streamline creation of new microgames we've come up with the Countermoves Generic Microgame Engine (CGME), which provides basic move/combat rules and is just under 2 pages long. Our CGME-based games simply take that and add on to it, or (if they want to be REALLY small), simply list any rules changes/additions and refer the reader back to CGME for the basics. > From holmberg@thuntek.net Tue Aug 26 20:13:52 2003 > Subject: Town and Structure Overruns > > Fellow GEV Jockies: > ... > Upon moving within 1 inch of a town or structure, overrun occurs. My first thought is to append this to that sentence, "if the would-be defender would like to." This assumes that the defender can hide out there as long as he wants, and not be forced into overruns until he's actually stepped on. Then again, i'm not at all familiar with the minis rules, so i can't say if this is in line with them. > or the structure while ramming. It must make a second overrun and > ramming attack. MUST it, or is that optional? > If after the second attack, the town or structure is > not destroyed, the attacking vehicle must move as if the terrain was > rubble. Then this rule is superfluous because it's rubble whether or not the unit actually destroys it on the second attempt. It also implies that any structure can be destroyed by any two attacks from the same unit, regardless of unit strength. It would be simpler to say, "a second attempt to destroy the structure automatically succeeds," because that's what it boils down to. > Any subsequent vehicle moving into the attacked town or > structure after the first attack must treat the terrain as rubble. Then it might as we BE rubble, not simply counted as rubble for movement purposes. i think any other solution is simply asking for more paperwork than anyone really wants. ============================== From: David Morse Subject: OM revision observation henry_cobb wrote: > Mostly I'm looking at the places where OM differs from the hex game > and trying to see if most of these odd cases can be done away with. Ogres are slightly better in the hex game because they don't slow until their treads have taken more banging. For example, a Mark V in hex-land doesn't slow down after taking 19 tread hits. A Mark V in analog-land slows down after only 10. I guess its obvious, but give the III 48 treads in hex-land. That will push it towards its goal VP. I think the Mk VI should have gotten 78 treads instead of 72, but what do I know? ===== [As a LGEV driving munchkin, I look at a powerful expensive target on a narrow tread gage and shout Timber! -HJC] ============================== From: David Morse Subject: radars & jam screens Re: http://www.sjgames.com/miniatures/ogre/structures/ I didn't notice before, but golly are radars better than jam screens! Radars give a +1 to _friendly_ CRT results within _30_ hexes! There are a couple of jam screen types, but the most useful general combat models aren't anything to write home about: * Directed Jammer - subtracts 1 from all weapon strengths within 11x11x11 hex triangle. Friendlies too. * Pulse Jammer - can disable units, but with a puny 5 hex range its irrellevant. * Broad Spectrum Jammer - prevent units within 15 hexes from combining fire w/eachother. Friendlies too. Before I thought they were roughly equal. Boy was I deluding myself. I want radars, only radars, and nothing but radars! I'm not saying they have to be equal, but it would be kinda fun if radars weren't so whompingly awesome, and if jamscreens were a bit neato-er. Proposed Radar Revision: * Radar range is reduced to 20 hexes. Its still very very good. Proposed New Jammer Type: * Focal Jammer - At the beginning of the enemy fire phase, the focal jammer declares a target hex. Attacks coming out of that hex, and any of the six surrounding hexes, have -1 range until the start of the next turn. Ogres and tanks hate this, especially when there are GEVs around. [Replying to own post, sorry] Just so it sinks in how devastating radars are, consider if you're playing the "toast the post" Ogre scenario versus the Mark V. For three armor and three squads of infantry, you can give your remaining force +1 to hit for the entire scenario. This is like doubling the attack strengths of all your units! The defense will win every time. The radar is invulnerable, with its pesky 30 hex range it can be in the most obscure corner of the map and still easily cover every hex. Change to proposed fix: Maybe range 15 hexes and all weapons have double normal range to attack the radar? Since its actively broadcasting its an easy target. This fix gives the defense two good turns of coked-up whacking before the Ogre gets in missile range. Also maybe limit the radar to a cone, ala directed-jammer, so that flanking it could pay. ============================== From: David Morse Subject: What GEV lacks is blitzkrieg. Doubleblind anyone? I. The Ogre Blitz? I've been reading a bit of military history about armored warfare, and it seems to me that Ogre doesn't really have massive victories ala the invasion of France or the six day war. The reason is simple - with no logistics, no morale, and no battlefield effect of losing your HQ, even if you get encircled you're doing just fine. They still have to come and get you, and you'll get the all-important first shot. Another problem is that the scenarios tend to be balanced. Even if they're not really symetric, each side has a fighting chance. One of the few exceptions is the Ogre Mk IV raid versus poor, ogreless armor. That's clearly a "birthday scenario", insofar as the attacker almost can't help but blitz to a decisive victory. The only other blitz I've seen was when Henry beat me at my own "battle of the bulge" scenario ( http://66.93.230.14/~dm/ogre/contest1/breakout.html ) by investing all his vp in a Mark IV and hammering my Bastogne before Patton could come to the rescue. But I think these exceptions prove the rule. In general you can't perform these decisive victories because a misplaced tank is still a dangerous tank. I don't want to confuse a blitzkrieg with a simple runaway victory. Those happen all the time in Ogre. What's the difference? Runaway victories are usually caused by grave mistakes or Bad Dice. Successful blitzes CAUSE runaway victories through movement, more than fire. ??? II. Doubleblind As "Gelder" pointsed me at this artcle: http://www.kentaurus.com/strattac.htm There's some stuff about how the bookkeeping in doubleblind games actually turns out to be fun, and how units which kinda stink in a god-mode game turn out to be usefull in a double-blind: My own affinity for double-blind games comes originally from Stratego, double-blind chess, roleplaying games, and refereed PBM games. Simply as games, these manage to be complex without a lot of rules, or intense despite a lot of rules, because of the uncertainty. In terms of simulation, I noticed that behavior gets a lot more realistic when there is a realistic lack of information. For example, the armored cars seem useless in the initial 88 scenario, until one plays it doubleblind, at which point the scouting elements come into their own. Doubleblind games are doubtless over-represented on my list of games I'd like to play. I'd like to apply the doubleblind mechanic to Ogre. Since there are by necessity two boards and a referee, we might as well do this as play-by-email. So any two of you up for this? We can hash out some visibility rules offline. It seems simple enough. http://66.93.230.14/~dm/ogre/fog.html ===== [I'm working on some notes for mines based on current trends. I'll bring it up next time. (And it does answer the question. How can one mine cover a square mile?) -HJC] ============================== Send all submissions or mailing list changes or problems to ogre@sjgames.com Archives for this mailing list may be found at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/ General online support for the OGRE game is at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave and other products mentioned here are trademarks or registered trademarks of Steve Jackson Games. All rights are reserved by SJ Games. 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