====== OGRE Digest, Mar 13th, 2004 (Last: Mar 8th) ======== ===== What to fix for the next printing of OGRE/GEV. From: "Chris French" From: White Rat ===== Plastic Minis From: White Rat From: Darren Breland From: Andrew Walters ===== "Little Wars" From: jkajpust@avercy.com ===== Formula abuse :) From: David Morse ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: What to fix for the next printing of OGRE/GEV. > From: David Morse > Until marines cost a reasonable amount, you're not going to see > any of these! Or until more units are allowed to play in the water. > http://www.gardenwargaming.com/wargame/title.html Thanks. > We have contracted with Gray Cat Castings (operated by Richard Kerr, > who was formerly our chief sculptor) to keep the Ogre figures, and some > others, available through Warehouse 23. Does this mean _OGREthulhu_ might be published one of these years? CF ===== [No, it means that the Ogrethulhu minis will probably remain available. You don't expect the casting company to write the rulebook for SJGames do you? Though I'm certainly tempted to do so. -HJC] ===== From: White Rat Subject: What to fix for the next printing of OGRE/GEV. > From: David Morse > Subject: What to fix for the next printing of OGRE/GEV. > > G6.113 An Ogre submerged in a water hex [cannot make ranged attacks and > > may only attack other Ogres with missiles in overruns. An Ogre > > attacking another Ogre with a missile in an underwater overrun has its > > attack strength doubled for being an Ogre in an overrun and then halved > > for attacking an underwater target.] (And in Shockwave add a note that > > Ogres (and supers) can use their AP guns underwater, but only against > > submerged Marines in an overrun.) > > Everyone but me is freakin' OBSESSED with underwater overruns. Hello? > People! Until marines cost a reasonable amount, you're not going to see > any of these! In all my years I've had two (2) underwater overrun situations, the one involving marines against a Mk III and the other involving a Mk III against a Mk V. ============================== From: White Rat Subject: Plastic Minis > From: BillA2720@aol.com > << If Plastruct Inc. can offer > 15 1/200-scale cars in white styrene plastic for $15, then whomever > sold the gaming biz on metal minis has shafted not only the game > co's, but the gamers as well. >> >> It can easily take an investment of 20-25K to cut the stainless steel die molds to produce plastic miniatures. Compare this to only several hundred dollars to make the rubber molds used for lead miniatures. Now ask yourself 'How many Ogrethulhus am I really going to sell?' Also, it is only in the last decade that plastic miniatures have been capable of retaining the type of detail that lead miniatures could. This (and a brilliant idea about interchangeability and conversions which they market excessively) is why GW has been able to go back to plastic troops. Note that it took them a couple of decades to do this AFTER establishing themselves as the biggest foundry in fantasy wargaming miniatures and that they are still working on recouping the cost according to inside accounts. Note that the miniature wargaming industry would never have reached the current market it has if companies as they were in the late 70s, early 80s and 90s had to invest in stainless steel mold startup costs...And eat them when diverse lines failed. Observe how much of a crunch even rubber-molding of pewter created with SJG. Thank you. > Three words: "Mechwarrior: Dark Age". Wizkids doesn't seem to > be having any difficulties with plastic. > > Face reality, folks: Either gaming goes to plastic, or it goes to > cardboard counters, or it goes away entirely, 'cause there's no > way in hell the hobby can survive charging $5 per playing piece. Face reality. Compare the bankroll WizKids (which, through its parent, has numerous ins to foundry/high-volume plastics manufacturing companies) brings to the table to the bankroll that normal non-multinational, non-multi-billion-dollar gaming companies are able to spend. If you should be interested in funding a startup gaming company to the tune of several million dollars instead of several tens of thousands, I am sure Mr. Jackson would be most pleased to hear from you. Ratty ===== From: Darren Breland Subject: Plastic Minis >From: BillA2720@aol.com ><< If Plastruct Inc. can offer >15 1/200-scale cars in white styrene plastic for $15, then whomever >sold the gaming biz on metal minis has shafted not only the game >co's, but the gamers as well. >> >> > >From: "Chris French" > > From: BillA2720@aol.com > > The gaming biz grew out of Little Wars, and other people playing with > > "Tin" soldiers. > >And if I knew what "Little Wars" was, that might mean some- >thing to me. > > > Injection molding requires time consumming cutting of steel > > molds, while with metal minis you can vulcanize a mold for production in > > about an hour, and the castings will have more detail. > >Three words: "Mechwarrior: Dark Age". Wizkids doesn't seem to >be having any difficulties with plastic. > >Face reality, folks: Either gaming goes to plastic, or it goes to >cardboard counters, or it goes away entirely, 'cause there's no >way in hell the hobby can survive charging $5 per playing piece. Making molds for plastic -vs- lead is not drastically different. Mold material costs are about the same either way. However, casting in plastic is MUCH cheaper and quicker than with lead. Plus the mold lasts longer due to the cold casting. I don't understand why more companies don't go plastic. Plastic is all around superior. It holds paint better, it's lighter, it's less expensive, it bonds stronger, and it's easier to produce in mass quantities. All major model companies make their models from plastic and detail and realism are rarely a problem. Ever check out the engines of most car models, or the cockpit detail of a fighter model? I can tell you from experience that if you look at the same painted model, one is plastic and the other metal, you won't be able to tell the difference until you pick it up. So why cast in metal? In terms of material cost metal is much more expensive. You have to melt it which requires a heat source. It's hazardous to work with, produces noxious fumes when heated, and cost much more to ship. On the other hand, plastic is usually a two part cold mold process (like epoxy), requires no heating, molds quickly, and costs less to ship than metal because it's lighter. Honestly I don't know why most minis companies use metal. Perhaps because the company likes to think of their figures as "collectible" items. That somehow plastic is passe and detracts from the intrinsic value of the piece. I say a gaming figure is strictly utilitarian. If I can field a bigger army for a cheaper cost then make 'em all out of plastic. ===== From: Andrew Walters Subject: Plastic Minis Its a matter of economies of scale. Its one of the saddest things I can think of. If you're going to make a million of something a $100,000 steel mold (we called them "tools" at my old company) adds only 10 cents to the cost of each item. If you're only going to make ten thousand of something (and I don't suppose SJ Games has sold even that many of some vehicles) the tool adds $10 to the cost of each unit. Yow. So if you want to buy plastic figures of *STUPID* things like they have at the grocery stores and toy stores, yes, you can do plastic for pennies. If you're interested in, oh, I don't know, something historical or cerebral, well, you're only going to sell a handful so you have to go with the technology with cheap molds, even if you use more expensive casting material. As for Wiz Kids, they sell a lot of units, and they cleverly re-use molds by painting them differently. Can the hobby stand $5 playing pieces? You bet. Look at historical naval miniatures, or consider the cost for a "stand" or "element" of 3-4 15mm figures, never mind 25mm historical. These are never going to have the numbers of Mage Knight, but people have been doing it for a hundred and sixty-something years and we will be doing it a hundred and sixty something years after Mage Knight is forgotten. I intend all this not to escalate the argument, but to offer a couple facts and help us all face the facts that if you want something with more depth than "lowest common denominator" entertainment, you're going to pay more. You're just going to have to pay more. Idiot CCG guidebooks are a hundred pages of full color for $5-10, a set of historical miniatures rules is $20-30 for maybe sixty pages of black and white (and don't get me started on the quality of the editing). But we can survive, and best of all, we can all contribute. Buy products, make web pages, run games at conventions, publish some rules, build yourself a spin-caster, evangelize. I think there's more reasons to be optimistic than pessimistic, more things to be thankful for than to bemoan. Andrew Walters ============================== From: jkajpust@avercy.com Subject: "Little Wars" > And if I knew what "Little Wars" was, that might mean some- > thing to me. Project Gutenberg has the entire text: http://www.gutenberg.net/browse/BIBREC/BR3691.HTM ============================== From: David Morse Subject: Formula abuse :) Hi, Check out "Super Tanks of the Paneuropean Federation" at: http://66.93.230.14/~dm/ogre/pe-super/index.html In particular look at the formula-abusing X-Tank, which for 6 vp will beat the big three (HVY, MSL, and GEV) the vast majority of the time. ===== [OK, you caught me. Some of the advantage of higher defense strength is encoded in the Movement Mode parameter. Now just explain one thing to me please. How can this unit run at high speed over open terrain, bounce big nuclear attacks and yet be stopped by a little brush? -HJC] ============================== Send all submissions or mailing list changes or problems to ogre@sjgames.com Archives for this mailing list may be found at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/ General online support for the OGRE game is at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave and other products mentioned here are trademarks or registered trademarks of Steve Jackson Games. All rights are reserved by SJ Games. This material is used here in accordance with the SJ Games online policy at http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html