====== OGRE Digest, Mar 19th, 2004 (Last: Mar 13th) ======== ===== Little Wars From: Todd Zircher ===== formula abuse :) From: David Morse From: "Chris French" ===== Plastic Minis From: reaper28i From: "Herb Diehr" From: Sethkimmel@aol.com From: "Chris French" From: Servitor@aol.com ===== Ogrethulhu From: "Chris French" ============================== From: Todd Zircher Subject: Little Wars > From: jkajpust@avercy.com > Subject: "Little Wars" > > > And if I knew what "Little Wars" was, that might mean some- > > thing to me. > > Project Gutenberg has the entire text: > > http://www.gutenberg.net/browse/BIBREC/BR3691.HTM I pulled aside the black curtain that divided the Country. And this Thing I saw! How can I describe it? A monstrous tripod, higher than many houses, striding over the young pine trees, and smashing them aside in its career; a walking engine of glittering metal. This was to be no ordignary game. ===== [Just a quick note that everybody should use the ogre@sjgames.com address for this list as changes should be occuring shortly. -HJC] ============================== From: David Morse Subject: formula abuse :) >>From: David Morse > Hi, > Check out "Super Tanks of the Paneuropean Federation" at: > http://66.93.230.14/~dm/ogre/pe-super/index.html > In particular look at the formula-abusing X-Tank, which for 6 vp will > beat the big three (HVY, MSL, and GEV) the vast majority of the time. > > ===== > > [OK, you caught me. Some of the advantage of higher defense strength > is encoded in the Movement Mode parameter. > > Now just explain one thing to me please. How can this unit run at high > speed over open terrain, bounce big nuclear attacks and yet be stopped by a > little brush? -HJC] Don't take the X-Tank too seriously. You won't see me playing with it. :) IMNSHO, its not a problem with the movement modes, its a problem with Da Formula being *too* general-purpose! Y'see, if you want to design an alternate reality, where GEVs have a withdraw distance of 9, Heavy Tanks have a strike radius of 9, and the basic armor unit costs 35 VPs, then the formula works fine for that. Those units will be balanced against each other. But put the withdraw 9 super-gev into the regular Ogre universe, where units with strike 9 are very, very rare, and you get a broken system, where the super-GEV takes out legions of HVY until an Ogre Mark IV shuts it down for free. Or, to put it another way: the formula could use a few asymtotes as set forth in "System Parameters and Limitations" coded into its wiggly self. Like a small (withdraw)^2 term would do it some good. Where withdraw is the range + gev_move. Similarly, a small D^2 would do it some good. Otherwise, the route to invincibility is very,very small D with very,very high withdraw (Cub), or very very small withdraw coupled with very, very high D (X-Tank). Its just common sense - the rectangle of withdraw*D is too affordable for long skinny rectangles, and survivability is often a matter of having a LOT of a single side. Example: with D100000 it doesn't matter your withdraw, coz nobody is going to bother shooting at you anyway. My next abuse will use very, very long MIRV strikes with no defense at all. I can almost hear the rolling-of-eyes from my desk. ===== From: "Chris French" Subject: Formula abuse :) > From: David Morse > > Check out "Super Tanks of the Paneuropean Federation" at: Sigh -- and here I am, wasting my time designing a proper Medium Tank for the game.... :) > Now just explain one thing to me please. How can this unit run at high > speed over open terrain, bounce big nuclear attacks and yet be stopped by a > little brush? -HJC] Much the same way GEVs can be stopped by a reasonably flat beach? :) CF ============================== From: reaper28i Subject: Plastic Minis QUOTE: Making molds for plastic -vs- lead is not drastically different. Mold material costs are about the same either way. However, casting in plastic is MUCH cheaper and quicker than with lead. Plus the mold lasts longer due to the cold casting. I don't understand why more companies don't go plastic. Plastic is all around superior. It holds paint better, it's lighter, it's less expensive, it bonds stronger, and it's easier to produce in mass quantities. All major model companies make their models from plastic and detail and realism are rarely a problem. Ever check out the engines of most car models, or the cockpit detail of a fighter model? I can tell you from experience that if you look at the same painted model, one is plastic and the other metal, you won't be able to tell the difference until you pick it up. Erm. I thought major model companies used injection moulding for their plastic parts within their model kits? For example I have several 1:18 scale die-cast cars. They have plenty of plastic parts in them, and all those plastic parts have witness marks where they have been removed from a sprue or runner. This suggests injection moulding doesn't it? So we are back to high tooling costs once more. Besides - $5 for a model. No problem because I live in England so $5 is only around £2.50 to me :) Hehe. Mark Robinson. ===== From: "Herb Diehr" Subject: Plastic Minis My company invested $300 into mold-making equipment and I made roughly 1,000 units out of the plastic. It was cheap, easy and educational. Maybe these steel tools are the industry standard, but if I'd been making HVY's, I'd have had 10,000 units. Stevie doesn't have enormous volume; the answer must be he prefers metal. I believe it's a poor choise and I've gone beyond doing my homework to doing the work. It is not difficult and I think he should convert. Herb Diehr ===== From: Sethkimmel@aol.com Subject: Plastic Minis > 70s, early 80s > and 90s had to invest in stainless steel mold startup costs...And eat them > when diverse lines failed. Observe how much of a crunch even > rubber-molding of pewter created with SJG. Thank you. > I think that the ONLY plastic minis (not including counters from Hasbro et al.) that were a commercial success were the five Star Trek Federation warships that Lou Zocchi and then Task Force Games made (DN, CA, DD, SC, Tug) in their Starline 2300 line for Star Fleet Battles. I also heard that the molds cost SIX figures to make (implying the cost equaled a Rolls...). they've also been in mostly continuous production for 20 years... > So why cast in metal >From what I've heard, the cost of machining injection mold dies is several orders of magnitude greater than molding rubber spin cast molds. Plastic IS better than metal, but the production run to break even must be ENORMOUS compared to metal. I don't see this particular hobby generating those kinds of sales (except maybe LGEV's and hovertrucks carrying militia...:-) ) ===== From: "Chris French" Subject: Plastic Minis > From: Darren Breland > Making molds for plastic -vs- lead is not drastically different. [...] > If I can field a bigger army for a cheaper cost then make 'em > all out of plastic. Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but from whence do you derive this information? ===== From: Servitor@aol.com Subject: Plastic Minis Andrew Walters so summed up the best all around answer to the "plastic vs. metal" that I really can't think of anything else to add. And I highly doubt that anyone else can add anything more (meaningful, anyway...) So let's just leave it at his pearls of wisdom and move on. If Gray Cat Castings begins production, I'm going to do something that I've never done before. I'm going to start ordering them through Warehouse 23. And I ask that everyone on this list consider doing it to. Let me explain why the above is significant to me. I work at a game/hobby store, and so get a discount as you can well imagine. I haven't ordered through WH23, not because I don't like it, I simply got all my SJG stuff cheaper through my store. Now maybe SJG will start shipping the minis to distributors again someday, but even if they do I will continue to buy them through WH23 because I will be putting more money into directly supporting the effort to produce more minis. Steve Jackson Games is first, and foremost, a business. If we support it (and it's contractors) then it will continue to be in business. If not... Okay. I can't resist. Flame me if you so please, but I gotta say it. If, IF SJG ever managed to produce "clicky" Ogre, I'd buy it. Well, come on. They did a great job converting Illuminati to a CCG... Best, John Hurtt (Servitor@aol.com) -Please visit my website at: http://hometown.aol.com/Servitor/Ogreindex/ogrindex.htm "Eagles may soar high, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines" ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Ogrethulhu > [No, it means that the Ogrethulhu minis will probably remain available. > You don't expect the casting company to write the rulebook for SJGames do > you? [Gratutitous Swipe] Well, since it appears SJG isn't going to do it.... [/G.S.] > Though I'm certainly tempted to do so. -HJC] What's stopping you? ===== [I've still got some SAN points left, somewhere or other. -HJC] ============================== Send all submissions or mailing list changes or problems to ogre@sjgames.com Archives for this mailing list may be found at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/ General online support for the OGRE game is at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave and other products mentioned here are trademarks or registered trademarks of Steve Jackson Games. All rights are reserved by SJ Games. This material is used here in accordance with the SJ Games online policy at http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html