From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Fri Oct 3 17:18:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA24093 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:18:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA04078 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:55:13 -0500 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:55:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199710032155.QAA04078@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #382 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Friday, October 3 1997 Volume 01 : Number 382 In this digest: Re: IN> How I See Demons Re: IN> On playing demons Re: IN> On playing demons Re: IN> How I See Demons Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' Re: IN> My theory on Revelations. IN> Thoughts on playing demons...and angels. Re: IN> Short Jean Thoughts Re: IN> Hell (Was:How I See Demons) Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons IN> On Playing Evil IN> Demon Morality IN> Angel of Pets IN> How I See Demons - Sidenote IN> How I See Demons Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine Re: IN> On playing demons Re: IN> Demonic Morality Re: IN> On playing demons Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo Re: IN> Short Jean Thoughts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:06:31 -0400 () From: Greg Subject: Re: IN> How I See Demons > > > > > > > The key point is, I see demons as VILLAINS. Bad guys. Not necessarily pure > > evil. Not necessarily evil at all. Some of them believe they are actually > > on the right side and don't consider themselves evil. Some are self-deluded > > (the Habbalah being the prime example). Some simply rationalize what they > > do. Some are trapped, some don't know any better, some have been deceived, > > MANY are tragic figures. And a few are even sympathetic. > > That's nice, but that's not the only position, and certainly not the sole > one I want to see in the supplements as that would be ignoring a large > chunk of the potential of the game and alienating (further) the demonic > players. Not all of them. I *like* my demon's bad and have no problem with playing someone absolutely evil. > > Once again, this is fine as your opinion, but not what I think is > appropriate for the IN line. And I agree, that there are definite good > guys in IN, I just don't think that it's necessarily the angels. Hang on. If there are definite good guys in In Nomine and it ain't the angels, that only leaves the demons. As the game is written, these guys are simply *not very nice*. > > > The thing is, the intrinsic natures of demons are anathema to humans, or at > > least to a culture that aspires to be anything but brutal social Darwinism. > > Yeah, there are humans worse than some demons, but the demonic mindset > > *exemplifies* the very worst of human nature. > > That's funny, I think that any society based solely on selflessness would > be horrible too. O.K.. So it looks like both sides are bad. > All functional civilizations or social groups that I > have participated in have needed but selfish and selfless aspects in the > members to work properly. An all-selfless group would be totally > incapable of doing anything useful. At the very least, one being in the > group needs to have some selfishness, or the group has no focus or > purpose. I'm not getting your point here. Why do you need selfishness for focus? Whenever a problem springs up, everyone selflessly pitches in to deal with it. Where's the difficulty? > > Somebody else (I forget who-- four digests in one day, sheesh!) pointed out > > that in In Nomine, demons can pretty much walk over humans and instigate > > whatever atrocities they like, balked only if an angel happens to be > > nearby. Frankly, this is a problem that bothers me too. > > Just like it bothers me that angels can do the same thing. Besides the > fact that none of them tend to allow a human any privacy, an offense > which is rather serious in my personal morality, they are more than > capable of walking over humans as well. Elohim can determine just what it > takes to break a human's will, a cherub is, at best, an overprotective > parent, it's second nature for seraphim to be able to pull up sensitive > information to use for extortion, and likewise for mercurians. This is all stuff that they *can* do. Whether they *do* *do* it would be more to the point. > And a gay > wiccan is in just as much trouble when a malakim of the sword is out > looking for evil to smite Maybe. This sort of heavenly atrocity is what gives the game its edge as a means for investigating moral issues. > unless a friendly brick of a demon is nearby. A friendly Elohim of Flowers might be more useful to talk him down. Your wiccan is probably worse off being left to the mercies of his "friendly demon" than being cut down by a twisted Malakite of the Sword. > The average angel's abilities are easily just as offensive and overriding > as any demon's; I'd rather that humans were most competant at resisting > either influence myself. Agreement on this point. > I have a REAL > > problem with Shedim. (I'm telling you, I would shudder constantly if I > > believed I lived in a world where things like that REALLY existed!) > > I would hate to live in a world with almost any of the celestials running > around. But if I had to, I'd much rather have to cope with an impudite > than a malakim. At least an impudite can be reasoned with, while if a > malakim decides that you fit his personal description of "evil", well you > can either be forcibly converted or die. Death ain't so bad compared to what the Impudite is likely to do to you. Your earthly fate is of not much importance compared to your eternal afterlife. > > Besides the World of Darkness, In Nomine has also been compared to a > > superhero RPG, with angels and demons as dressed-up heroes and villains. > > This is actually a comparison I like better, though I don't like the > > simplistic four-color comic book morality one often associates with > > superhero games. > > I'm honestly not trying to flame you, but it seems to me that you are. > "These are the good guys, these are the bad guys. No ifs and or buts." > Sounds a lot like the stereotypical comics to me. The ifs or buts would most likely come in the form of disputes between superiors. Discrepences between different groups which are each trying to do what is right provides a great basis for exploring moral issues. The best form that demons can take is defenders of the view that there is no such *thing* as right and wrong. > > > doesn't mean they are good either. The ones whose motives are more complex > > than that are the ones who make better player characters. The ones who are > > just plain evil...well, how much psychological drama is there in that? If > > you just want a game of strategy and tactics, trying to do bad things while > > outmaneuvering the angels trying to stop you, there is nothing to separate > > In Nomine from a dozen other games where you can play bad guys. In Nomine > > deals with real contrasts, real moral polarity....the characters usually > > ARE going to be colored in various shades of gray, but I believe it is > > important that there IS white and black at either end. > > That's nice, but you see, I don't think that the demons are the bad end. > I know this may come as a shock to you, but I'd rather have the IN demons > running the show than the IN angels if I had to have one of them running > the real world. Forget this world in and of itself. Think about Hell! > Your veiw on what side is the good guys isn't everyone's. > I want IN as a game about morality, not as a game with a predetermined > answer for the right answers to the morals. Can't you get this through disputes between the superiors? I could even see an attempt to turn up the focus on morality by taking the demons out of the picture altogether and just have the various heavenly factions vie for their personal preferences. I think that if you want to run In Nomine *your* way, you are going to have to do some major rewriting of the setting. Which is fine. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:51:34 -0400 () From: Greg Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons > >> > > And that is the *huge* problem with picturing demons as anything other > >than blacker than pitch. They are collaborating with a scheme whereby > >humans are sent to Hell to be tortured for all eternity. > > Or Shal-Mari, to have their Essence swindled out of them in eternity's > biggest Brothel/Casino/Gormet Resteraunt/etc. Or Perdition, to fixate > on a bouncing ball for all eternity. Or Gehenna, to fight (which at > least has a chance of *winning*, sort of)... If you want "kinder" > fates for the Hellbound souls, have them corrupted by demons of Lust, > Gluttony, Dark Humor and the Media. The exact degrees of the suffering may vary, but none of these fates are very pleasant. And even something mildly unpleasant that lasts *forever* is worse than a million years of red hot pokers, let alone anything that could be achieved in the odd 75 years we get on earth. > > Remember, not all demons torture the damned souls because they're > sadists. (Though there are plenty of those, especially Habbalah...) > They're doing it mostly to get Essence out of the little generators. > If torture is the most effecient way to do it... They may not be sadists, but they are still pretty damned evil. If I found out that Hitler didn't really have anything against Jews, and just set up concentration camps to further his rise to political power, I still wouldn't think much of him. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:53:20 -0400 () From: Greg Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons > >> > > > Read the sections on Hell. Shal-Mari isn't too bad -- sort of like Las > Vegas, only tackier. Nybbas' domain isn't all that bad, either. I > certainly wouldn't want to be *anywhere* in the IN Hell, but it's not as > bad as you're painting it. Its all bad though, and it lasts *forever*. > > > The most > >delightful demon makes Hitler look like Barney. > > You can certainly interpret things that way, but it's quite clearly not > canon -- it's explicitly stated somewhere that the worst humans are > worse than the worst demons (except maybe Balseraphs). > It may be stated, but this isn't backed up by the things demons do. No human attrocities can compete with eternal damnation. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:37:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> How I See Demons > > Once again, this is fine as your opinion, but not what I think is > > appropriate for the IN line. And I agree, that there are definite good > > guys in IN, I just don't think that it's necessarily the angels. > > Hang on. If there are definite good guys in In Nomine and it ain't the > angels, that only leaves the demons. As the game is written, these guys > are simply *not very nice*. I ententionally left that open. It could be the demons, but not necessarily. There are several other groups. Humans, the Grigori, and the Etherial gods all immediately spring to mind. > I'm not getting your point here. Why do you need selfishness for focus? > Whenever a problem springs up, everyone selflessly pitches in to deal with > it. Where's the difficulty? Because you'll end up with a "gift of the magi" scenario. > This is all stuff that they *can* do. Whether they *do* *do* it would be > more to the point. Well, there isn't a definite answer at the moment, although it seems likely to me that at least some will. > A friendly Elohim of Flowers might be more useful to talk him down. > Your wiccan is probably worse off being left to the mercies of his > "friendly demon" than being cut down by a twisted Malakite of the Sword. I don't know about that. Not all demons are out to screw over humans on principle. Although most are more than happy to take out malakim since they are a major threat. Please note that I'm not saying that all demons have to really be nice, just that some aren't nasty at all. > Death ain't so bad compared to what the Impudite is likely to do to you. > Your earthly fate is of not much importance compared to your eternal > afterlife. Depends also on your take on Hell and Heaven. Heaven didn't sound that appealing to me in the In description. > Discrepences between different groups which are each trying to do what is > right provides a great basis for exploring moral issues. The best form > that demons can take is defenders of the view that there is no such > *thing* as right and wrong. That's certainly one valid position. Another would be that all beings should be allowed to act as they please, instead of following one set of directives because "God said so". Honestly, though, there's little that the angels in IN can point to as "see god said that you should do this" since he's not exactly a talkative diety. > > That's nice, but you see, I don't think that the demons are the bad end. > > I know this may come as a shock to you, but I'd rather have the IN demons > > running the show than the IN angels if I had to have one of them running > > the real world. > > Forget this world in and of itself. Think about Hell! Okay. Now what? It still doesn't change my opinion. Hell as described in the book has some pretty pleasants places. Shal-Mari, for instance. > Can't you get this through disputes between the superiors? I could even > see an attempt to turn up the focus on morality by taking the demons out > of the picture altogether and just have the various heavenly factions vie > for their personal preferences. I don't think that this would go over well with a fair sized chunk of the players (at least judging from this list). If all you have is a bunch of powerful beings manuvering for control of the earth with a clear-cut opposition that is different, it would be too similar to certain WW situations, which they don't want. I think that this would even be your personal position, right Mr. Edelstein? (I need to figure out some way to indicate which David I'm referring to without sounding formal...) > I think that if you want to run In Nomine *your* way, you are going to > have to do some major rewriting of the setting. Which is fine. Yes. And I can live with that. Not all of the positions I've supported are by necessity how I want to run my IN campaign, but they're all valid as I see it. Donald G. Bixler, of course, I'd like to see more non-JCI AAs also mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:06:35 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Vessel death and 'A Bright/Dark Dream' > From what I'm looking at here, Charlie's Vessel was down to just a > couple hits. He failed his Song of Corporeal Healing, leaving his vessel too > badly beat up for any practical purpose... and decided that, instead of > trying to work the beat-up vessel back to his home and let it heal up, he'd > just ditch the worthless body and use his back-up vessel, presumably stowed > in a Body Bag as mentioned before. > > Charlie -could- -possibly- have salvaged the vessel, but it would > have been easier to just make a new one, so he abandoned it. This makes no sense. Charlie's vessel was probably at a pretty high level... Expensive! You don't just throw things like that away! It's best to keep it on ice indefinitely (hell, it doesn't _cost_ you anything to do that) and use the backup body til then. Healing a body just requires a bit of time and some essence. Making a whole new one is a lot more involved (i.e. it takes a Superior or a stack of experience points). - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:13:20 -0500 From: rbeall@fdldotnet.com (Grim88) Subject: Re: IN> My theory on Revelations. >I must have missed that. Which book? Librum Reliquarium is the only >other supplement I know of at te moment. Fall of the Malakim. It's up on the New Products list. It was there for a day a few months ago, and promplty taken down. Now, that and Rev 5 are listed. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:26:05 -0400 (EDT) From: IQJason@aol.com Subject: IN> Thoughts on playing demons...and angels. Trust me to take a day off just when one of my favorite topics comes 'round. I've been thinking about this on and off since SJG posted the results of their survey on the web site about player identifaction with IN. Lots of good arguments in both directions, but here are a few things that have, so far, been unsaid. Proposition: Many of the people who "don't play demons" make up for it by letting their angelic characters wear the black hats instead. If you've got lots of those neutral-to-dark angels running around, screwin' and cussin' and beatin' people up, you hardly need the demons. And all the anti-Dominic sentiment on the list seems to indicate that you don't need to be Fallen to rebel against Heavenly authority. Proposition: There seems to be lots of the following logic going around: "That which I support is divine; that which I oppose is infernal." Freedom is something I believe in, therefore Lilith must be somehow less bad than the rest of the Demon Princes. I'm opposed to inquisitory tactics, therefore something's wrong with Dominic. All good technology gets into our hands via Jean; anything bad comes from Vapula. Under these parameters, of course demonic characters seem unsavory. Proposition: One reason demons don't get played: look who they have to work for. Demon Princes are supposed to be the equivalent of Archangels in stature. Why do more than half of them sound like buffoons whenever they open their mouths? (I'm personally bothered by Nybbas most of all: he's the originator of media spit'n'polish; why would he choose to sound like a jargon-spouting underling?) I think the folks at SJG may be stacking the deck so hard against the 'demons iz kewl' stance that they've swung the other way. Suppose I'll wait for Baal and Kronos... Note to Dottie: There are other pagans out there. :) Of course, most of the ones I've met wanna play the Ethereals anyhow... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:49:14 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Short Jean Thoughts >IN relies somewhat on some sort of Balance of Power. If you give the >Angels a massive edge in technology, you weaken that. > Well, here's how I see things, to clarify my position a bit. Vapula: is an eager beaver who loves the Scientific Method, but often loses sight of his goals in his eagerness to torture and destroy his test subjects. As such, his knowledge is scattershot and often flawed. Vapula's tech often has annoying or dangerous side effects- or is actually a side effect itself of some other process. On his strong side, he knows all the scientific principles he uses -personally-; on the weak side, his knowledge is based entirely on his own experiments, which can leave blind spots- and he's easily distracted by shiny bloodcovered objects. Jean: the Angel of Lightning, who assumed Technology into his Word more by fiat than by merits. Yves gave Jean official control over the teaching and progress of technology -after- Jean had already assumed control. As such, he is a micromanager and a control freak who isn't always on top of his game, and who is disturbed and frightened by things he doesn't understand. Granted, Jean's heart is in the right place, and he's bailing as fast as he can, but his effective usefulness is limited by his approach- learn and implement, but don't do anything new. Short version: Vapula: Nuttier than a forest of almond trees, and not as thorough as he ought to be, but effective and willing to try anything once- twice if it involves screaming guinea pigs. Jean: Micromanages everything, unwilling to try new ideas, and conservative to a fault, but knowledgeable and very competent. Result: Vapula meddling and experimenting, Jean playing catch-up ball and doing damage control for Vapula's mistakes (or successes), and both occasionally getting blindsided by humanity's own, unaided discoveries. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Marc sponsored the first http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Chinese buffet restraunt; c/o White Lightning Productions | it was Haagenti who came http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | up with MSG. Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Celestial folklore http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:35:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Kim Foster Subject: Re: IN> Hell (Was:How I See Demons) >Okay. Now what? It still doesn't change my opinion. Hell as described >in the book has some pretty pleasants places. Shal-Mari, for instance. > Actually just going from memory, Shal-Mari is about the only "pleasant" place I can think of IN Hell. There's Abbadon where your soul is slowly stipped mined for Forces (At least you have oblivion to look forward to). Perdition where you can sit and focus on some mindless activity for enternity. Vapula's realm where you could end up a test subject for the ultimate mad scientist....and so on... . Even Shal-Mari doesn't seem like a great place to spend forever. It might be nice to visit but.... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:16:17 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) At 5:03 PM -0500 10/2/97, Donald G Bixler wrote: >> >Sure. He sounds like he could use a good topping to me. ;'} >> >> Chocolate, and whipped cream, and some nuts and... > >And that too... >> [K.K., get *OFF* the keyboard this instant! Down, girl, down!] > >Aww, poor thing. Her... Whoa, gotta watch out for Lilim with Charisma >(Cute) +3 Not to mention the Song of Finger Possession. Usually used to type evil things on the keyboard and give the impression I have a twisted mind. >> >Show them the error of their ways and accept them into the family? >> >> Yeah, but what do you do with the Malakim then? (Assuming that >> we're not using the already-a-demon versions...) > >Hmm... Good question. Provided that Vapula (and Jean, if he could >admit defeat and being wrong, which I don't see) couldn't dig up some >solution for those annoying demon-smiting instincts, perhaps a nice >"nature preserve" place with very beefy security guards? I was thinking something like big bird-cages, myself. And a little sign saying, "Do Not Feed The Malakite." - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:24:20 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> WW vs. INO and Playing Demons At 6:35 PM -0500 10/2/97, Donald G Bixler wrote: >> >Well, that is not the impression that I received from Mr. Edelstein's >> >comments. >> >> It all depends on one's personal slant on reading the thing. Silly >> of him to say so, though. I know what he's written... > >That's why I said that was the impression that I received. I'm not >quite sure how to parse those last two lines, though. (I'm the Line Editor. I know what people wrote and for which book. He did some very nice stuff for the IPG -- stuff which can help a player as much as a GM. Therefore I say it's silly of him to give the impression that the IPG is "for GMs more than PCs.") >> At the very highest end of the brightness knob (I didn't create the >> concept, IIRC, I just stole it for my own...), one would need >> the demonic guide to create a character to send Renegade, IMO. >> So it *has* to have good "play the demon" stuff in it. > >Of course, the stuff for a good Renegade isn't the same as the stuff for >a "god is a dictator" setup. Or at least isn't usually... Hey, at a minimum, take the propaganda and declare it true. >> >Well, I'd be perfectly willing to help. After all, I'm already dumb >> >enough to work for SJG sans paycheck. ;'} (Just kidding Kira and SJ, >> >it's an honor to help a game I like!) >> >> Keep posting. It will remind us. > >*nod* Although it'd be nicer if this stuff could be handled prior to >the printing, which I can't exactly help with... It keeps the mindset in my head, which helps things get handled prior to printing. >> Parenthetical Lilim smiley, that's what it is. > >Yeah, but I couldn't resist. Haagenti is by far the Superior I'm most >surprised to like making seritors for. (The quote by him in Beleth's bit >in "The Marches" cracked me up.) Haagenti, eh? The mind gibbers and crawls under a rock... >> >Donald G. Bixler, who'd even be willing to stay vaguely near canon >> >> Just so long as Vapula didn't build the Cannon... > >*checks spelling real quick* Now, now, please don't insult my boss that >way, you might hurt his feelings. ;'} And that would be dangerous... >Donald G. Bixler, who has trouble with creating interesting angels who > aren't Outcast, but has demon ideas by the infernal bucketful I'm almost the opposite, actually... The most interesting demons, for me, are the ones skirting dissonance here and there -- or at least risking the scrutiny of the Game for insufficient evilness. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:15:38 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> On Playing Evil >>>> *Getting off* on fictional badness is what bothers me. > O.K.. Why does *that* bother you?<<< Why does it bother me if someone gets off on roleplaying rape, murder and parking in no-parking zones? Let me ask you-- why do you think someone *would* enjoy doing those things, even in a game? - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:15:36 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Demon Morality Some interesting points, Chuck. I suspect they go to the heart of some of the disagreements on this list. In one camp are those who believe ALL morality is relevant, there are no absolutes, or even near-absolutes. In the other camp are those who believe there is-- or should be-- some kind of objective standard against which all humans can be compared. I tend to lean towards the second camp. Please note, that does NOT mean that I have a personal code of morality that I think everyone else on Earth should follow. It DOES mean that I don't think some things are acceptable or should be tolerated just because they happen to be common practice in some societies. In other words, I believe the "cultural relativity" model is abusive when taken to extremes. (Incidentally, your Native American example is an oft-repeated distortion. Just because many tribes had no real concept of property doesn't mean they didn't have a concept of what we consider "theft". Certain things *would* be in the possession of individuals at times, possibly including unique items, and since not everyone who wanted those items could have them at the same time, I am sure jealousy and theft occurred among Native Americans just like among everyone else. They may not have used a word translating as "stealing"; they may have seen it as an infringement of one's personal environment, or a breach of etiquette. But I am sure walking over and grabbing something currently in the possession of someone else was not considered any more acceptable among Native Americans than among Europeans.) How does this relate to In Nomine? Well, *I* believe there is a right side and a wrong side in the War (this is in GAME terms, I am not talking about my personal religious beliefs, which are pretty much nonexistent). Now, which side that is may indeed depend on which side you happen to be fighting on....but the difference between demons and angels is not that they are both fighting for the same goals and using different methods (with the demons justifying a lot of bad things because of what they're fighting, etc.) It's that they are fighting for different goals entirely. Angels want a world where the Symphony is harmonious, where there is no more dissonance...in other words, where the will of God is supreme. But God kind of threw a monkey wrench in the works when He created Free Will, and now no one can be quite sure just what God's will *is*....does He really want everyone holding hands and singing His praises for all eternity, or are all these differing opinions which sometimes break into open warfare part of His plan?) Demons want a world where there is no compulsion in anything, where no outside force dictates what anyone can or cannot do. Everyone has perfect freedom, unrestrained by anything like morality or rules. The paradox for demons is that since every demon is self-centered and wants the best of everything for himself, that often means taking it from others or making others cater to YOUR desires. So that means the strong will dominate the weak, make rules for the weak, etc. So much for everyone having total freedom. Now, what I perceive in the opinions some other people are expressing is that they see it as just a big power game; Archangels want to control the Symphony, Demon Princes want to control the Symphony, the winner is the one who secures more territory and wipes out the other side. That may be how the War seems to be fought on the surface, but underlying it are philosophical differences that go to the core of the War. Demons and angels are *different*. Not immutably so, since both can change sides. But if In Nomine is just a big celestial shooting match, again, I believe it loses much of its drama, and any semblance of portraying something beyond a game of superpowered people beating up on each other. All of the above is non-canonical, my personal opinion, I am not an employee of Steve Jackson Games, etc. etc. blahblahblah. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:15:40 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Angel of Pets At first I thought "Shouldn't that be a Servitor of Jordi?", but then thought, Jordi wouldn't like the idea of pets existing to comfort humans at all, no matter how well those pets are treated. So a Servitor of Novalis makes sense. I imagine Jordi probably grudgingly tolerates Catmeuw because at least she tries to make sure that all the pets humans keep are well-treated. But he'd much rather convince her to interpret her Word in such a way that she is more focused on pets from the *pets'* point of view than that of their "owners". - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:15:33 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> How I See Demons - Sidenote >>>I'll admit it, I've ignored most of the flamewar thus far, but this touches on my only real worry about In Nomine - that there's going to be such this set universe that is "Canon" that GM interpretation goes away. I love GMing this game, it's a riot and a half. But I will drop it like a hat and never play again if it becomes "You must use what we have published, and BTW, go buy a new book so you are current with Canon." <<< Steve Jackson Games has never acted that way, and I certainly don't expect them to with In Nomine. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:15:31 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> How I See Demons >>> The implication that I have a guilty concscience, however, is silly and unneeded.<<< I honestly did not intend to imply that, Donald. I just meant that I don't consider Malakim to be violent psychopaths who will kill anyone they meet who's less than perfect. Humans only need to be worried if they know they've done something BAD. Frankly, this whole discussion is making me very tired, and I think a lot of people (myself included) are getting oversensitive and taking offense where none was intended. I'm sorry you thought I was taking a shot at you. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:38:58 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Re: IN> White Wolf's Games vs. In Nomine At 10:14 PM -0600 10/2/97, Kingsley Lintz wrote: >> continue, fine. Discussions about demons can continue. But no more >> WW-gamer bashing unless it's specific and has some direct relevance >> to In Nomine. OKAY, EVERYONE? >> >> Or do I have to get out the bullwhip and leather? > > Oh, THAT'LL end the conversation. What, you humans *like* things like that? >*ahem* > > Hey, WW sure do suck, don't it? > >{MaBarry wants me to add that their fomori are just wimpy demons, but I >think she's just trying to edge in on my blame..} Hmph. Okay, time to build the cage for the pets... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 17:22:44 -0400 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons >Uh, no. Some (maybe the majority of) humans in Hell are tortured, but >by no means all of them. They're all *used*, but that's an entirely >different thing from being tortured. I dunno. After an eternity of it, it may be worse, especially if you *know* you're being used. Speaking of which, am I the only one out there who understands how truely *evil* Andre's dissonace conditions are? I mean, anyone ever *been* in a relationship like that? -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:36:57 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Demonic Morality At 11:37 PM -0400 10/2/97, speaks@mindspring.com wrote: >At 03:04 PM 10/2/97 -0500, Donald G Bixler wrote: > >>Angels say "Do this because you should do this.", demons say "Do what >>you think you should do." Admittedly, most demons think that people >>could use a little nudging, but not against their will. > >Not against their will? Almost every single resonance is DESIGNED to >overcome the will of their targets (Balseraph, Habballah, Lillim, Shedim). >They don't nudge, they CONTROL. Those are canon demons -- these are Bixler demons. He takes the "color" knob and adjusts it until everything is reverse-color. Then he turns the TV set upside down and plays the tapes backwards. (IOW, he has an interesting take on things, but arguing "But that's not canon!" is pretty well irrelevant.) Besides, sometimes you just have to do what's expedient. (I love Elohim; they can be so *ruthless*.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 17:23:41 -0400 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons >So it's not that ease of resistance that keeps demons from using their >resonance successfully -- it's the fact that every time they use their >resonance (especially on somone they don't know), they court dissonance. >Dissonance is a pain, and difficult to get rid of. Being selfish, >demons should see the easier path is often to *not* use one's resonance, >but use more indirect means to a goal. Not to mention that every time you use your resonance, there is a chance of rolling 111. Ouch! -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 17:19:59 -0400 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> (Fwd) A Mercurians Logo >First of all, yay! I hope the Kyrio pin is good...I'd hate to buy >outside the Choir ;-) Also, what about Superior pins? Assuming they >are roughly the size of the White Wolf clan pins, one on each side of >a collar would look cool... Oooooh. Stop that. *Now* you make me want to have these things. Imagine: Wearing a tie with the "Gabriel" pin, and nothing else. Leave them wondering if you can detect *their* kind of cruelty, or just make your hands glow green... -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:21:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emily K. Dresner" Subject: Re: IN> Short Jean Thoughts > Jean: the Angel of Lightning, who assumed Technology into his Word more by > fiat than by merits. Yves gave Jean official control over the teaching and > progress of technology -after- Jean had already assumed control. As such, he > is a micromanager and a control freak who isn't always on top of his game, > and who is disturbed and frightened by things he doesn't understand. > Granted, Jean's heart is in the right place, and he's bailing as fast as he > can, but his effective usefulness is limited by his approach- learn and > implement, but don't do anything new. Yeah! Jean the micromanager. When I think about him, I imagine the pointy-haired boss ("You all have bad attitdes for no apparent reason") and row after row of cube farms. Here's my Jean story. I was messing with Jean last night. An Ofanim of Gabriel had gotten some information from a demon and passed it on up through the bureacracy off to Gabe, to whom it actually reached. Gabe had the decision to either eat it, burn it, read it, or pass it off. After considering eating it for some time, she passed it off to Yves, who realized it was a list of demonic agents on Earth. Yves delegated it to one of his seraph, who took it over to Jean's people, because He Who Controls Information and all that, so Jean could dispatch HIS Ofanim to go and check everyone out on this list. Allied Superiors rock. So the Ofanim realizes his information has been passed off, and wants it back. He and the group's Seraph (a Seraph of Yves) goes to track it down. They hit Jean's people, and before you can even TALK to anyone, there is a pile of forms to fill out in triplicate and have cosigned by an authorized signer. The Seraph sat around doing this while the Ofanim had... CONNECTIONS! The Ofanim uses his connections to circumvent boring boring paperwork to get to see a high-ranking Elohite, who is the Director in Charge of the Division of Information on Personnel, who in turn is the boss of the head of the group that is on the Earth searching the list. The Seraph and Ofanite get to go see this guy. And what does the guy say? "You do not have the proper security clearance at this time to have access to the information that was provided to us by Yves and his group. You need to sign the Red Alpha Form C, have it signed by your immediate Superior, and returned to the Security department for your proper clearance, at which time we can discuss your limited access to the information." The Ofanite started screaming that it was HIM who had gotten it in the first place! They left the office, throwing out forms on the way. The Seraph said, "I would say this was useful, but then I would be lying. This has been a vaguely disappointing experience." The Ofanim said, "But we didn't get anything!" The Seraph answered, "I was trying to be polite." Good thing they still have the demon in question. - - Em ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #382 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.