From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Tue Oct 7 19:02:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA09101 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:02:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA05803 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:31:59 -0500 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:31:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199710072331.SAA05803@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #391 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, October 7 1997 Volume 01 : Number 391 In this digest: Re: IN> On Playing Evil Re: IN> [FICTION] Chess Game Re: IN> [FICTION] Chess Game Re: IN> [fluff] WW vs. IN IN> The Cthulhu Mythos in In Nomine (part 1of many) Re: IN> [FICTION] Chess Game Re: IN> Geasa for the AA Re: IN> What do we mean when we say "evil"? Re: IN> Chess Game - Outtake Reel Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) Re: IN> Thoughts on playing demons...and angels. Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) IN> (Old news) Superiors of Borg Re: IN> Band Attunements Re: IN> On playing demons IN> What do we mean when we say "evil"? Re: IN> The Cthulhu Mythos in In Nomine (part 1of many) Re: IN> On Playing Evil Re: IN> What do we mean when we say "evil"? Re: IN> [FICTION] Chess Game Re: IN> The Cthulhu Mythos in In Nomine (part 1of many) Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) Re: IN> [FICTION] Chess Game Re: IN> The Cthulhu Mythos in In Nomine (part 1of many) Re: IN> AndCon and IN Re: IN> Mark's vision of In Nomine Re: IN> On Playing Evil Re: IN> On Playing Evil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:16:20 -0400 () From: Greg Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil > > > It's a gray area, from what I can see. Enjoying the carrying out > of a dandy little plot that gets the right NPC toasted (or > sometimes PC; ah, the way us AD&D munchkins slaughtered the > PC we didn't want to play with!) is one thing. Enjoying the > idea of killing someone, periord, starts to edge into a gray > area... Enjoying something *too much*, and I think most of us > can agree we've got a baby sociopath around. "Too much" is difficult here. If "too much" means that they start to blur fantasy with reality, then yeah. Otherwise, I don't see it. Lots of people play DOOM. Very few are sociopathic. > > Where is the line drawn? No telling. It's individual for each > person, I suspect. If someone actually goes out and *does* it, > well, that's definitely bad! Total agreement. > If someone uses enjoying the > pretending to creep other people out, he's probably a jerk at > least. Again, total agreement. > Beyond that -- I have a hard time having a character > toast most NPCs, even the ones who deserve it, even the PCs who > are supposed to be ruthless. There are lots of things that I have a hard time putting in games as well. But that doesn't mean that they are wrong to put in games. > > I think it's the "getting off on" phrasing. Without modifying > circumstances, somebody who evidences pleasure in the concept > of hurting others is a little odd. "Odd" seems an odd choice of words. Even if we just limit our conversation to games, *most* games involve hurting people. Even when you are playing the *good* guys, it just so happens that foiling the bad guys requires kicking various substances out of them. The games don't *have* to be like that. Instead of Malakim, there could be heavenly social workers who help demons get in touch with their feelings and rid them of their violent tendencies. Games, including In Nomine, tend to involve hurting other people because hurting simulations are very popular. > > But somebody who gets into character deeply is not necessarly > the sort who *really* gets off on others' pain. Toying with > a normally abhorent psychology/personality can be...interesting. Sure. For me, role-playing is all about getting inside someone else's head. The more exotic the scenery in that head, the better. I play pious priests, I play chivalrous knights, I play exotic samurai obsessed with strange values, I play Angels of fanatical altruism, and I play Demons. And the demons are evil. Greg. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 14:28:43 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> [FICTION] Chess Game Redneck Gaijin wrote: > >I still think you should do one. A tale of Dominic/Asmodeus > >forbidden love sounds about right... > > The comedic value here isn't nearly what you'd think. Eli/Dominic > (Dominique) is much better... ^_- > > But I'm still not doing it. How's about Gabrielle and Andre? It would be the last time he asks a woman if she has the hots for him. tom t. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 14:25:38 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> [FICTION] Chess Game Casca wrote: > > On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > > David, OTOH, I just plain forgot... and thinking back on it, it's probably > > for the best. David does not play well with other children. }:-{D > > I dunno....I would think David plays a mean game of Tag. ;) > My question is: how do you play hide and seek with the AA who hands out the IN equivalent of Xray vision? *g* tom t., who can't remember where he got the quote: "Happiness is being left comatose by your lovers..." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:36:25 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> [fluff] WW vs. IN At 8:20 AM -0500 10/7/97, Andrew Getting wrote: >At 09:33 PM 10/3/97 -0400, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: > >> So, what's it worth to y'all for such a thing to appear on, say, >> the INC? > her cheek> > >David and I will shut up ;> I'll get the scanner warmed up, hopefully sometime this week. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:31:37 +0100 From: "cd skogsberg" Subject: IN> The Cthulhu Mythos in In Nomine (part 1of many) The Serpent People In appearance, they resemble the snakes they have been named after by the humans who know of them; hairless, pied and scaled, with a sinous tail, an ophidian head, and arms and legs. Their skins are commonly emerald green with a white zig-zag pattern along the back. The Serpent People, today, are a remnant of a remnant, the last degenerate remains of a race that in the Permian Age dominated large parts of the world, reared cities of black basalt,, discovered strange and profound principles of chemistry and hypergeometry, and bowed in hissing worship before the altars of Yig, Father of Serpents. So why didn't God or the Archangels wipe them out? For one thing Yig was consent to leave the rest of the Symphony alone as his chosen race did things no non-reptile can understand. Yves had seen what was to be the Destiny of the Serpent Men, and after he'd satisfied the rest of the Seraphim Council that they would make no threat to mankind, the Archangels pretty much left them alone. What did the Infernal side of things do, then? Well, for the most part it had, like the Angelic side, a profound lack of understanding of the Serpent mind. Not for lack of trying, but, it seems, the inner workings of Serpent-kind minds are utterly inscrutable to all beings from the lower Heavens (which, in the beginning, the demons were, too). The Serpent People still remain, they have simply undergone a decay into degenerate, debased remains of their glorious past. For the most part, an average Serpent man (of which there are maybe 60,000 around the globe) is stunted, both in intellect and body, in comparison to their elder bethren. There are, however, a small number who learned the secret of immortality, who remain in this day and age, and a few who are atavisms from the older versions of the species. These individuals often lead their degenerate brothers and sisters as priests of Yig, whom all Serpent Men still worship today. Serpent People (Degenerate) Corporeal Forces: 3 Strenght: 9 Agility: 7 Ethereal Forces: 1 Intelligence: 1 Precision: 3 Celestial Forces: 1 Will: 2 Perception: 2 Skills: Dodge/1, Fighting/2, Language (Serpent)/3, Language (1 Human language)/1 This is a pretty average degenerate Serpent Man. Most dwell either in strongholds of the cult of Yig, in some remote and in- accessible location, or among the down-and-out of large human cities, where their feeding won't be noticed (they prefer living food). Serpent Man (Atavism) Corporeal Forces: 3 Strenght: 6 Agility: 6 Ethereal Forces: 3 Intelligence: 8 Precision: 4 Celestial Forces: 4 Will: 10 Perception: 6 Skills: Chemistry/2, Dodge/1, 3-4 Knowledges/2-4, Language (Serpent)/4, Language (2-3 human languages)/2-3 Songs: Charm (Ethereal/2, Celestial/3 *Note* Works *only* on Intelligence/Will, respectively), Entropy (Celestial)/2, Shields (Ethereal/3, Celestial/1) This is an atavistic Serpent Man, either favored by Yig or an immortal. The ones favored by Yig often has memories of past lives, including knowledge of old, forgotten skills and strange spells, while the immortals often remember past ages from when they dwelt there themselves. The scholars of bygone days often know spells too. Note: *All* Serpent People know an equivalent of the Celestial Song of Form, which allows them to disguise themselves as humans. This is automatically successful, requires 2 Essence/month, and can be dropped/raised at will. Dropping or raising it, however, *will* cause a minor disturbance in the Symphony. (Degree of Disturbance: 2) They also have the equivalent of NC: Fangs/3 and Tail/2 in natural form. cd - -- "And it has come to pass that the Lord of the Woods, being ... Seven and nine, down the onyx steps ... (tri)butes to Him in the Gulf, Aza- thoth, He of Whom Thou hast taught us marv(els ..." - H. P. Lovecraft, _The Whisperer in Darkness_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:18:43 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> [FICTION] Chess Game My fave was, of course: Lilith & Marc playing Monopoly. And deciding it wasn't a good idea. At 1:09 AM -0400 10/7/97, Raoul Duke wrote: >Bravo. If this doesn't go up on the Collection, Beth gets some serious >Dissonance. I just asked if it was okay for me to put it up... >So, how long till the inevitable IN lemon? ;b Hrm? Hm... Do you mean lemon as in cars or lemon as in hentai? At 12:35 AM -0400 10/7/97, Casca wrote: >My favorite was the Yves/Kronos scene. But where was David? He's a Malakite... Though poor Laurence was there... At 2:44 AM -0400 10/7/97, Raoul Duke wrote: >On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >> Redneck (you've been reading Bubble Gum Pink? Shame on you };-{D ) >"Oh Buddha, so good!" snickersnickersnicker >I still think you should do one. A tale of Dominic/Asmodeus >forbidden love sounds about right... Dominique. Though how one could tell under those robes is anyone's guess. (And it wouldn't be *funny*, per se. Hentai, yes... But I don't think it should go up on the list, in that case, or the INC. No. I'm *not* going there.) (Andre, gender specific? Tsk. I've always figured he's got an Andrea vessel as well. And so did others...) ... Ahh.... You gotta put a *warning* on those things... Ow. Breathe, must breathe, even celestials gotta breathe... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:43:51 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Geasa for the AA At 10:37 AM -0500 10/7/97, Martin Leslie Leuschen wrote: >At 09:33 PM 10/3/97 -0400, in_nomine-l@lists.io.com wrote: > >> So, what's it worth to y'all for such a thing to appear on, say, >> the INC? > her cheek> > >We could all send in a Mercurian of Eli fir the INC... Those are going to be going up soon -- I just need to get a connection to FTP them over... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 14:46:35 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> What do we mean when we say "evil"? Stacy Stroud wrote: > > Quoth Nathaniel Eliot: {massive snippage} > [Aside: Mentioning underground movements in Hell just gave me an > interesting campaign seed: Assuming Janus and Valefor are the same guy, > what if the Prince of Theft has a network of demons charged with smuggling > damned souls *out* of Hell (they only have to get as far as the two angels > of Judgment at the gates)? After all, if *demons* can be Redeemed in IN, > why not the already-damned? Such an action certainly fits the sneaky and > freedom-loving nature of Janus/Valefor. Demon PCs in that campaign would > not only not be evil, in my book, they'd be heroes.] With Lilith as a not-so-reliable collaborator, maybe? tom t. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:37:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Dorothy Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Chess Game - Outtake Reel On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, Redneck Gaijin wrote: (snipped- or should I say "cut"?) Bravo. The outtakes were as good as the rest. How about Andre and David playing Twister? No wait- Andre would try to turn it in to strip twister, and David would just turn himself to stone whenever he needed to streach too far. Nevermind. :) *Dorothy Michelle Bixler * mudmh10@ecom.ecn.bgu.edu* "Gidget, have you been laying with the Horned One again?" -MST3K's Mike from "The Thing the Couldn't Die" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:35:51 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) At 8:38 AM -0400 10/7/97, Emily K. Dresner wrote: >> > So fiddle with the brightness knob. Kobal may simply be a demon >> > because God wouldn't have him... >> I think there's something wrong with my brightness knob...it only >> ever wants to go DOWN, and then jams if I try turning it the other way... > >Wait... is this what this thing is? A knob? I think mine burned out. Have you checked to see if the monitor is even plugged in? O;> emccoy@nh.ultranet.com, Uppity Wynch http://brie.bmsc.washington.edu/people/merritt/books/Eye_of_Argon.html "rumoured to contain hoards of plunder, and many young wenches" Mike [falsetto]: "We're tired of these degrading patriachical slurs! From now on we demand to be called 'wynchys.'" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 14:43:17 -0400 From: "Kirt A. Dankmyer -- aka Loki" Subject: Re: IN> Thoughts on playing demons...and angels. >Hmm. I've yet to actually _play_ In Nomine (the one PBEM I created a >character for never got off of the ground), but I'm a Christian myself, >and I have to admit that I view the In Nomine universe to be just as >fictional as that of any other fantasy game. Although In Nomine is based >on Christian mythology and the stories of that tradition, IMHO it doesn't >have anything to do with "real" Christianity (of which, of course, there >are several flavors). Actually, ironically enough, this is the other reason that, as a pagan, I can stomach In Nomine. It's a fantasy, with a dualism that, being a member of Western culture, I can't help but find fascinating. -Loki - -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Academic Computing Specialist http://www.wfu.edu/~dankmyka/ -- (910) 759-4202 -- PGP public key available. For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:20:31 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) At 6:36 PM +0000 10/6/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: [...] >> Oh, I enjoy playing in all kinds of worlds I wouldn't run >> myself...and I can certainly see the point to it; given the >> replication of patterns between, say, atoms and solar systems, >> quarks and honeybees, etc., there's certainly a good case for >> applying them to angels and demons... > >Again, the replication is purely coincidental - none of the elements >in an atom act even marginally like a solar system, by the current >models. As for quarks and honeybees, you've lost me... According to a recent Discover magazine article, bee-dancing to communicate "food over there" follows 6-dimensional math models, and suggests that they have some way of sensing *quarks*, I think it was. Something quantum... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:58:06 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: IN> (Old news) Superiors of Borg Just thumbing through the INC while avoiding work, and I discovered this list, incomplete as it is. Since apparently nobody has bothered to fill in the blanks, I thought I would right quick. BELIAL OF BORG: ASSIMILATE THIS! HAHAHAHAHAHA! FIRE, FIRE, BURN, YEAH BABY!! KOBAL OF BORG: Dignity is irrelevant. You have already been assimilated. Feel silly now, don't you? KRONOS OF BORG: Destiny is irrelevant. Aspirations are futile. You are fated to be assimilated. URIEL OF BORG: Only the righteous will be assimilated. FURFUR OF BORG: Hey, man, you're fuckin' ASSIMILATED! HUH? HUH? WHADDYA THINK OF THAT, HOSER? OH, YEAH? YEAH! YEAH? COME A LITTLE CLOSER AND TALK THAT 'IRRELEVANT' TRASH AT ME, I'LL ASSIMILATE YOU ALL OVER THE STREET! Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "Nah, they can't start the http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Apocalypse yet- the new Star c/o White Lightning Productions | Wars movies ain't come out http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | yet. Who'd miss that?" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Eli, on the War http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:23:43 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Band Attunements At 7:16 PM -0400 10/6/97, David Edelstein wrote: >>>>Non-Archangels/Princes do not have C/B/S Attunements, in canon. >They have Rites, but not Attunements or Distinctions.<<< > > >Actually, that's not entirely true. Generally, small-s superiors don't have >Choir/Band attunements, but this is not to say that some of the really >powerful ones (like the ones who are just below Archangel/Prince level) >might not. (IOW, you probably don't want to say such a superior will >*never* appear in official materials. ) I got the impression that there was a strong "We shall not complicate matters overmuch with C/B attunements for small-s superiors plus/versus Superiors!" feeling... (And little ethereal gods know that *I* don't wanna see some of those. ) Which doesn't mean that people can't invent 'em for themselves. >And some of the middlin' >powerful ones CAN have a Servitor attunement or two (witness Hatiphas, the >Demon of Sorcery from the Marches, who can grant the Sorcery attunement). Oh, right, her. Gotcha. Servitor Attunements are okay. Probably only one or two, though. (Note reads: "Eat breakfast. You can't remember everything when your bloodsugar is kaput. Also, turn on A/C; it's hot up here.") - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:26:27 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons At 8:15 PM +0000 10/6/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> > For some demons, it works on balance of fears. Demons can either go >> > along with it, and save their hides, or try to change sides, and >> > risk getting smoked by *both* sides. >> > >> > Does this make these demons good? No. But they aren't all evil - >> > just cowardly (with good cause) and selfish. >> >> Selfish to an amazing degree. Just think about what they are >> willing to do to us again and again to save their own hides. > >That's the situation they are in - use and abuse the monkeys, or face >death. In a similar situation, would you choose to protect a monkey >for a few moments with your *life*? And remember -- *demons* don't get no "afterlife." If they're destroyed, they're destroyed. Nothing left, nada, just some tattered Forces that get recycled in the Symphony. >> "I vas just followink orders" is a pretty lousy excuse. > >It's not just orders - it's life or death in a very permanent way, >with *no* higher reward for being noble. Right. Or, life, or a very painful and protracted death, with no higher reward, etc. One can start to feel sorry for those critters. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:55:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Stacy Stroud Subject: IN> What do we mean when we say "evil"? Nathaniel Eliot wrote, in response to me: >But since you are arguing that demons are evil, I ask you this - God >in In Nomine is portrayed as omnipotent, or nearly so. If God is >not stopping this, does this make Him evil? I think there is a >better case there than there is for all demons being evil. Hmm. *Is* the IN God portrayed as omnipotent? We are told so little about Him that we could just as easily say He is benevolent, but *not* (or at least not strictly) omnipotent. I agree that you probably have to have one or the other, though (in the game *or* in real life). The "God picked Lucifer to Fall, and planned the corruption of the Grigori so he could use their Children later" theory pictures a God who is strictly omnipotent (nothing happens that He does not will) but not terribly benevolent, at least in the short term and where individuals are concerned. The above could also describe a "utilitarian" God, who uses "evil" events in the short term to bring about a wonderful long-term result for the greater good of everyone. Such a God would be somewhat more benevolent (though the "playing with human/angelic lives" part is troubling), but not strictly omnipotent, since he can't just *make* his wonderful result come about instantly. (If he *could* do that, but chooses to go the long way around for the same result, then his benevolence comes into question again.) Then we have the "God's doing the best he can" theory, which I tend to favor both for IN and for reality. This God is not strictly omnipotent; his will can be thwarted, at least temporarily and in particular cases. However, he is benevolent, and is working hard to get Creation/the Symphony back on track now that demons and humans have managed to dump a whole bunch of unintended evil into the mix. Note that this God could still be "omnipotent" in an ultimate sense -- that is, he *will* win in the end, it's just a matter of time. However, he does not get what he wants in *every* instance, if only because his nature prevents him from interfering with his creatures' freedom even when that freedom leads to their damnation. (Perhaps he is innately just, and must see that the wicked are punished, even if he would prefer not to, unless *they* choose to repent of their wickedness.) There are probably other portrayals of God that would work, as well. The point is that the omnipotent-but-evil portrayal is not the only possible one, especially in the game. (Heck, it's not the only one even in real life, where portrayals of God tend to be somewhat more detailed than the vague mention given in the IN rulebook.) Comments? Other ideas? Stacy Stroud sstroud@uky.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 16:12:41 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The Cthulhu Mythos in In Nomine (part 1of many) What was Yig? Archangel? Demon Prince? Ethereal god? Other? Earl W. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:34:19 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil At 2:16 PM -0400 10/7/97, Greg wrote: >> >> >> It's a gray area, from what I can see. Enjoying the carrying out >> of a dandy little plot that gets the right NPC toasted (or >> sometimes PC; ah, the way us AD&D munchkins slaughtered the >> PC we didn't want to play with!) is one thing. Enjoying the >> idea of killing someone, periord, starts to edge into a gray >> area... Enjoying something *too much*, and I think most of us >> can agree we've got a baby sociopath around. > >"Too much" is difficult here. If "too much" means that they start to blur >fantasy with reality, then yeah. Bingo. What else could "too much" mean? It is, by definition, where someone crosses the line into unacceptable behavior. >> Beyond that -- I have a hard time having a character >> toast most NPCs, even the ones who deserve it, even the PCs who >> are supposed to be ruthless. > >There are lots of things that I have a hard time putting in games as well. >But that doesn't mean that they are wrong to put in games. I didn't say that they were wrong. Just that I, myself, have some limits. I generally know where they are. Sometimes a character pushes them. Sometimes this is more comfortable than other times. >> I think it's the "getting off on" phrasing. Without modifying >> circumstances, somebody who evidences pleasure in the concept >> of hurting others is a little odd. > >"Odd" seems an odd choice of words. Odd. Not normal. With lack of other referent points, maybe even dangerous. Someone who evidences pleasure in getting off a difficult die-roll and achieving the objective... Well, that's different. >Even if we just limit our >conversation to games, *most* games involve hurting people. Even when you >are playing the *good* guys, it just so happens that foiling the bad >guys requires kicking various substances out of them. Does it? Come now, play more Servitors of Flowers! (I *still* can't do that IN article I'd like to -- because I don't have enough experience with combat yet!) I've been in games where most of the action was utterly roleplaying and problem-solving, and didn't *need* anything getting bashed. And I've been in some hack&slay. Both can be fun. Someone who sees the characters as *characters* and takes pleasure in the demise of them, though... That's a little ... odd. :-J - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 16:43:03 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> What do we mean when we say "evil"? Stacy Stroud wrote: > The "God picked Lucifer to Fall, and planned the corruption of the > Grigori so he could use their Children later" theory pictures a God > who is strictly omnipotent (nothing happens that He does not will) > but not terribly benevolent, at least in the short term and where > individuals are concerned. In some theological circles, that brand of omnipotence is called "omnicompetence," and distinguished from "ordinary" omnipotence. Add "ordinary" omnipotence to omniscience and nothing happens that God does not PERMIT. There can still be things He didn't DO. But under omnicompetence, God is the transcendental micromanager and the only being in the universe really doing anything (as opposed to being shoved, albeit by N-zillion removes). Earl W. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:00:52 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [FICTION] Chess Game >My fave was, of course: Lilith & Marc playing Monopoly. And deciding >it wasn't a good idea. Monopoly was never meant for two people anyway. }:-{D >At 1:09 AM -0400 10/7/97, Raoul Duke wrote: >>Bravo. If this doesn't go up on the Collection, Beth gets some serious >>Dissonance. > >I just asked if it was okay for me to put it up... And I just said it was okay. >>So, how long till the inevitable IN lemon? ;b > >Hrm? Hm... Do you mean lemon as in cars or lemon as in >hentai? He means hentai, and refers to a certain story I co-authored with Lawrence Mann. It is named farther down in the post. >At 12:35 AM -0400 10/7/97, Casca wrote: > >>My favorite was the Yves/Kronos scene. But where was David? > >He's a Malakite... Though poor Laurence was there... > Lawrence's honor is unusually strong even for a Malakite, hence an order from his Lord to keep the peace holds better than it would for David, who is just -looking- for an excuse... >At 2:44 AM -0400 10/7/97, Raoul Duke wrote: >>On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > >>> Redneck (you've been reading Bubble Gum Pink? Shame on you };-{D ) That's the name. >>I still think you should do one. A tale of Dominic/Asmodeus >>forbidden love sounds about right... > >Dominique. Though how one could tell under those robes is >anyone's guess. (And it wouldn't be *funny*, per se. Hentai, >yes... But I don't think it should go up on the list, in >that case, or the INC. same here. I only write hentai stuff if it's silly. Serious love scenes are almost always gratuitous to the story, and a hentai story is a plot dropped into a sex scene, rather than a sex scene dropped into a plot- how can they hope to be serious? }:-{D >(Andre, gender specific? Tsk. I've always figured he's got >an Andrea vessel as well. And so did others...) Of course, although he seems to prefer his male form in what canon material I've read for him. However, in any form he's an equal opportunity perv. Me, my personal fantasy would be meeting Eli in a female vessel... :9 > > > >Ahh.... You gotta put a *warning* on those things... Ow. Breathe, >must breathe, even celestials gotta breathe... > Aw, but if you'd been warned, it wouldn't be as funny, would it? };-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "Nah, they can't start the http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | Apocalypse yet- the new Star c/o White Lightning Productions | Wars movies ain't come out http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | yet. Who'd miss that?" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Eli, on the War http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:03:30 -0400 From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> The Cthulhu Mythos in In Nomine (part 1of many) At 16:12 -0500 10/7/97, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >What was Yig? Archangel? Demon Prince? Ethereal god? Other? "Will this gun be for hunting, home defense, or other?" Damn, I just got an evil idea. Any body send their angels to South Park yet? That is where Jesus (uhhh...Seraphim Archangel of...) and Santa Claus (Balseraph Demon Prince of ....) got into their epic fight, and killed Kenny. "Oh my god! They killed Kenny! You bastards!" Chef is definitely an Impudite of Andre'. The mayor is pretty power hungry...hmmm... Officer Brer Brady is a Belseraph of Kobal, maybe? Poking fun at Asmodeus? This could be evil, too.:) SeanMike - -- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:17:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Lilim and Malakim (fwd) > >> I think there's something wrong with my brightness knob...it only > >> ever wants to go DOWN, and then jams if I try turning it the other way... > > > >Wait... is this what this thing is? A knob? I think mine burned out. > > Have you checked to see if the monitor is even plugged in? > > O;> > Oh no, wait.... hmmm... there's this plug. No no, it's plugged in. But the bulb is missing, and the monitor is turned so it faces the wall. And it has a label on it, that clearly says "WANG". Now that's scary. Okay, who let the servant of Kobal in here? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:42:12 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> [FICTION] Chess Game At 4:00 PM -0500 10/7/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >>My fave was, of course: Lilith & Marc playing Monopoly. And deciding >>it wasn't a good idea. > >Monopoly was never meant for two people anyway. }:-{D So? O:> (I don't play it with my spouse anymore. He wins.) >>At 1:09 AM -0400 10/7/97, Raoul Duke wrote: >>>So, how long till the inevitable IN lemon? ;b >> >>Hrm? Hm... Do you mean lemon as in cars or lemon as in >>hentai? > >He means hentai, and refers to a certain story I co-authored with Lawrence >Mann. It is named farther down in the post. Bubble Gum Pink? Bubblegum Crisis. Dragon Pink or Pink Pinapple. I see. Okay.... So, give me a note off-list about where to find this bemusing smut, eh? >>At 12:35 AM -0400 10/7/97, Casca wrote: >> >>>My favorite was the Yves/Kronos scene. But where was David? >> >>He's a Malakite... Though poor Laurence was there... >> >Lawrence's honor is unusually strong even for a Malakite, hence an order >from his Lord to keep the peace holds better than it would for David, who is >just -looking- for an excuse... Ahhhhh, that makes perfect sense. Poor Laurence. (Yum.) >Me, my personal fantasy would be meeting Eli in a female vessel... :9 Oooooo..... >> >> >>Ahh.... You gotta put a *warning* on those things... Ow. Breathe, >>must breathe, even celestials gotta breathe... >> >Aw, but if you'd been warned, it wouldn't be as funny, would it? };-{D I don't know.... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:41:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> The Cthulhu Mythos in In Nomine (part 1of many) > >What was Yig? Archangel? Demon Prince? Ethereal god? Other? > > "Will this gun be for hunting, home defense, or other?" > > Damn, I just got an evil idea. > > Any body send their angels to South Park yet? That is where Jesus > (uhhh...Seraphim Archangel of...) and Santa Claus (Balseraph Demon Prince > of ....) got into their epic fight, and killed Kenny. No! NO! I will have no part of this death culture! I just want to go to the beach! :) -Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:28:00 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> AndCon and IN > I was the resident MIB for AndCon last weekend in Toledo. My > SJG events revolved around INWO and IN; thought I'd post a few > ramblings on observations made. Fairly off topic, but how does one become a MIB? I'd love to be a SJG's rep for the NH/Mass area... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "This is my town. I know where the ketchup is." - Dan Smith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:28:00 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Mark's vision of In Nomine > > Dotti Michelle (Hell Sworn since 1991)- Donald and I can't be > > the only Pagans around here. > > Nope, I am as well. Not a satanist, just a Pagan. And I might as well swear in as an atheist (which a *lot* of Christians I know have treated as even worse than being Pagan). If I'm was in a high-brow mood, I'd say a skeptical agnostic, but I'm not... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "This is my town. I know where the ketchup is." - Dan Smith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:28:00 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil > Yes, but there are other ways to relieve stress. Yes, there are. And? > I think there's a difference between playing an adventure game > where you kill opponents presumably because they are "bad guys" > and pretending to slaughter innocent people because you get off on > playing evil. Why? Slaughter is slaughter - the attraction is not being the good guy. The major difference is that some people feel a need to justify their interest by making their targets evil, so they can be morally justified as they act badass. Playing evil works in the same way, but with less contrivance. > Frankly, I think even playing violent games where you're the good > guy has an effect on your worldview....but I do it myself, so oh > well. I doubt it affects your worldview - I have been playing violent games for about ten years (probably *because* of my fathers desire to the contrary) and had violent daydreams before that. I'm one of the least violent people I know, and yet I enjoyed the part in a book I was reading where one of the good guys said "You take this pistol, you walk up to whoever killed him, you put it in his navel, and you pull the trigger until all you hear is clicks. You blast his belly out his fucking spine." Why? Not because it was justified (it was, though some of the cooler but less quoteable stuff in the book wasn't) - because it was an animal thrill. (in fact, I'm less violent after all that violent gaming than I was before, but that's probably just growing up) Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "This is my town. I know where the ketchup is." - Dan Smith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:28:00 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil > >>>He says it better than I could:<<< > > [George Carlin quote snipped} > > I did not say that media by itself creates a violent society. You did imply it helped, something I am directly disagreeing with. > However, the issue is more complicated than that. There is a > dynamic between society and pop culture that reflects both. It's > true violent crimes are less common in Japan, but I would not say > that their fondness for anime depicting schoolgirls being raped by > monsters makes a healthy statement about their sexuality. No more than suppressing the urges that create interest in that would. Their sexuality (and ours) is already unhealthy, by those standards - the fact that they deal with it through expression rather than repression and complicated channeling doesn't really enter into it. > (And bear in mind-- low rape statistics in Japan doesn't mean a > low frequency of rape. Remember how difficult it was for a woman > to report being raped in the U.S. twenty years ago or more? It's > still far worse for a woman in Japan.) There is that - however, feminism *is* occuring over there as well. Violence (which was the other quote) doesn't have as much reason to be hidden, and yet it is also lower. > >>>Guess what - that part's in everybody. It's part of our animal > heritage to kill and rape - it ensures survival.<<< > > We have the basic instincts for violence. That's not the same as > *enjoying* it. Animals don't kill for pleasure, they kill out of > necessity. Not being an animal psychologist, I can't say with any authority, but I doubt very few animals think about killing as a necessity, unless it is possibly hunting. Violence to establish your power probably elicits the same urges. > And "rape" among animals doesn't involve the same dynamic as in > humans. How? > >>>If you've never fantasized about kicking the daylights out of some > idiot who just cut you off, then you are in the minority, my friend. A > very small minority.<<< > > Of course I have. The question is, how do I react to it? By supressing it, or maybe channelling it. I react by channeling it more obviously, be it through working out on a punching bag or destroying something in a roleplaying game. > More importantly, let's suppose I *could* kick the daylights out > of that idiot and get away with it. Should we encourage people to > indulge in their violent impulses? When did I encourage this? I encourage channeling or repressing it, anyday; doing so in a roleplaying game is a valid way to do so. The danger is people who cannot distinguish between channeling the urge and simply releasing it, and those people are (thankfully) few and far between. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "This is my town. I know where the ketchup is." - Dan Smith ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #391 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.