From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Thu Oct 9 13:00:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA13601 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:00:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id MAA07736 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:32:42 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:32:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199710091732.MAA07736@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #397 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, October 9 1997 Volume 01 : Number 397 In this digest: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Superiors at the Movies Re: IN> [FLUFF] Superiors at the Movies Re: IN> backwards Re: IN> backwards Re: IN> On playing demons Re: IN> backwards Re: IN> [FLUFF] Superiors at the Movies Re: IN> What do we mean when we say "evil"? Re: IN> What do we mean when we say "evil"? IN> Errata enhancement Re: IN> [FLUFF] Superiors at the Movies IN> Aztecs IN> Bast IN> Wind/Theft Tethers IN> Andre's Vessels Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #387 Re: IN> [FLUFF] Superiors at the Movies Re: IN> On Playing Evil Re: IN> On Playing Evil Re: IN> On playing demons Re: IN> On Playing Evil Re: IN> On playing demons Re: IN> backwards Re: IN> backwards Re: IN> [FICTION] Chess Game Re: IN> Bast Re: IN> Tethers to Janus or Valefor Re: IN> [FLUFF] Superiors at the Movies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:51:36 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Superiors at the Movies > >YVES - Apollo 13. (A true case of humanity, under stress, reaching their > >highest potential.) > > On a related thought, did Forrest Gump reach his Fate, Destiny, or > neither? I vote for neither. You think? He had, despite losing the two people dearest to him (mother and lover), and all his handicaps managed to help raise a wonderful son. All the business with the war and jogging and the commericialization was mere fluff compared to that. He also helped a lot of people out along the way... isn't that one of greatest destinies? - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:52:59 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Superiors at the Movies On Oct 9, 3:11am, Thomas Davidson wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Superiors at the Movies > On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > > > What movie would any given Superior go to watch? > > > >[sniperooni!] > > SAMINGA - Doesn't go. Doesn't care. Until they do a documentary about every > > possible way to kill a man, he could care less about how the movies show > > them- ugh!- living. > > > > How about "Faces of Death" (or something like that--it could be "Masks of > Death") which shows supposedly live footage of people getting killed? > (Saminga: It's a comedy, isn't it?) Also the possibly-non-existant snuff films that you always hear about. Numerous zombie movies also spring to mind. Nearly any movie where everyone dies in the end would be right up his alley. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:06:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> backwards On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Kingsley Lintz wrote: > > > I not only play it backwards I play it on an old 45.! > > So what do you hear when you play it backwards? I bet it's cool stuff, > > like, "Eat Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream" or "The Gnomes of Zurich have > Actually, I was playing it backwards a bit last night, and kept > getting, "You Will Obey Emily Dresner. Do As She Commands." > Woah. And I was asleep really early last night. That's... something. Well, that explains the dream I had then. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:11:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> backwards > Well, I've got a neat idea behind it, which could be done over the > internet (probably over Shadowlands, because it is built for stuff > like that). Basically, the people who play are Superiors (and high > ranking Ethereals?), giving orders to the lower ranks of Celestials, > who are players in other gaming groups. > > Of course, summoning a superior is going to be troublesome... > > If you can work it out I would be very interested > STYX > Oh, great, something else to keep me from getting anything done at work. :) The Master is gonna have a fit. - - Em, Happy Fun Balseraph ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:38:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons > >At 11:35 AM -0400 10/8/97, Gregory Littmann wrote: > > > >And I think you over-estimate some people's desire to remain > >self-aware individuals. Eternity is a long time, and even in In > >Nomine Hell, might not be *really* eternity. A damned soul could > >get traded to a kinder Prince, or wait for the final War (and hope > >that Heaven wins!)... > > > Thanks, Beth, you just gave me a story seed. }:-{D > > In the IN universe, is it really -possible- to have a final victory? Jesus. Okay, you win. You are eviller then I am. For now. (Fantastic story, by the way.) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:05:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> backwards > >Out of curiousity, how many other people play (or want to play) IN > >backwards? So far, we have three (Oops, Em, and me). > > > If someone would explain what is meant by 'backwards' in this case, I'd be > glad to give it a try. I see alot of responses on this in my inbox, which I haven't read yet. But I'm gonna give this a shot on what this really means. On the credits page of the sourcebook, there is a subtle little line that says, "Don't play this game backwards". I thought it was cute, thought about Stairway to Heaven and the Paul is Dead stuff, and moved on. Until, of course, Kingsley made the comment a few weeks back, presumably after one of my weirder ideas. Apparently, one of my rambles had screwed up some ruling, and I was christened with being a little convoluted. :) Of course, more weird stuff came out. :) Mobile tethers which open directly to hell. Ideas about Dominic and Eli. Politics. That sort of thing. Stuff that makes you go, "Wha?" Me too. Hurts my head. So, people started referring to me like that, and I'm like, cool, what the hell. Backwards, to me, means to take some stuff that is canon, and some stuff that isn't canon, and kind of twist it until it looks like a twisty cone, and add some angst as chcolate sprinkles. It means to take another look at what you have, and ask yourself, "This is so nice and fluffy and happy, how can I make it suck?" And when I think of something, SHARE. I have no qualms about satanists and human sacrifice, or undead leaving their fingers in people's soup, or splattering NPCs for effect. I like my stories nice, dark, and confusing. :) So that's it. Take it or leave it. - - Em, Seeing that her Word is Well Supported. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:30:41 -0400 From: Highway Star Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Superiors at the Movies >> VAPULA - Species. (Hmmm, that looks familiar.... must check my notes and see >> if someone's been smuggling copies to Burbank....) > >Alien 4. The only answer to the big meanies is bigger guns and >cloning. Or Starship Troopers.:) >> FURFUR - Falling Down. (Scene at a rental counter- "I want-" "I want-" >> "YOU!!" "DIE, FOUL DEMON!" ***BOOM***) > >Phallus in Wonderland > Er, I'd have to agree with that one; definitely better then Skul Hed Face despite the cameos.:) The commercials rocked in SkulHed Face (Kobal poking fun at Nybbas), but there's more music in Phallus. (Oh, btw, if you're a GWAR fan, I understand that the new Ragnarok video is out, and pretty damn funny. Flattus hogs the camera half the time. I'm going to try to mooch a free copy out of Brad (Jizmak) when I go to the Cleveland show on Halloween.) SeanMike reading Good Omens for the first time today - -- Sean Michael Whipkey, smw4s@virginia.edu Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service, Publications Div. 804/924-4185 (or -4188) voicenet, 804/982-5536 fax http://www.virginia.edu/~cpserv/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:07:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> What do we mean when we say "evil"? > > > Where do kinda bad people go? > > IN's hell doesn't exhibit this as much, yet, but Dante's Inferno has > a wide range of "degrees" of damnation. The topmost level, Limbo, > is actually quite pleasant, and lacks only the vision of God. > OTOH, the people in there weren't even kinda bad. They were all the wonderful ancients who were luckless enough not to have had access to Christianity. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:16:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> What do we mean when we say "evil"? > > > A point I *would* like to make is this: > > > > > > Damned souls are in Hell for a *reason*. They are evil - not just > > > kinda bad, > > > > Where do kinda bad people go? > > They're reincarnated, according to canon. > Somehow I missed the roar of this canon. Where is it writ? (Personally, I'm not going to use reincarnation anyway. I like the monotheistic flavour of one life each. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:09:17 -0400 From: Hunter Johnson Subject: IN> Errata enhancement I've added last-modified dates to the base errata page: http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/errata/ so you can tell which ones have been modified since the last time you looked. All of the supplements' errata lists have been updated this month. Hunter - -- J. Hunter Johnson /\ SJG Errata Coordinator (sjg-errata@io.com) http://www.io.com/~jhunterj/ /()\ Knightmare Chess Development Coordinator jhunterj@io.com /____\ South Park: Care Bears on Acid -- G.C. Settlers RoboRally Brain Groo LunchMoney DinoHunt Knightmare GURPS AoR INWO ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:02:50 +0100 From: "cd skogsberg" Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Superiors at the Movies Redneck Gaijin wrote: > What movie would any given Superior go to watch? - ----snip---- > BELETH - Anything by Wes Craven. _From Beyond_ by Stuart Gordon, based on the HPL story by the same name. "Takes its time getting revved up, but then cuts loose in outrageous fashion. As before, this is not for the squeamish, but if you liked Re-Animator;..." --Leonard Maltin's review of _FB_ > HAAGENTI - Anything with Chevy Chase in it. _Alive_, of course. (Mmmm. Teammate.) > SAMINGA - Doesn't go. Doesn't care. Until they do a documentary > about every possible way to kill a man, he could care less about how > the movies show them- ugh!- living. _Re-Animator_, also by Stuart Gordon, also based on the HPL story by the same name. Medical student injects glowing serum into corpses, re-animating them as zombies. A really gory b-horror flick. > FURFUR - Falling Down. (Scene at a rental counter- "I want-" "I > want-" "YOU!!" "DIE, FOUL DEMON!" ***BOOM***) _The Keep_; really strange movie about German soldiers who awaken a strange entity in a castle in the mountains of Romania. cd - -- "And it has come to pass that the Lord of the Woods, being ... Seven and nine, down the onyx steps ... (tri)butes to Him in the Gulf, Aza- thoth, He of Whom Thou hast taught us marv(els ..." - H. P. Lovecraft, _The Whisperer in Darkness_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:51:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Martin Leslie Leuschen Subject: IN> Aztecs "... but being forced into the Marches while the European powers devastated their followers ..." - _The Marches_, on the Aztec Gods Does anyone else see a problem with this? Regards, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:48:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Martin Leslie Leuschen Subject: IN> Bast _The Marches_ claims Bast is slowly fading away. I find this strange, considering the amount of cat-fanatics there are out there. Or is Jordi just intercepting most of the Essence so generated? Thoughts? Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu Beth, are you forgetting to send Bast some Essence every Tuesday? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:42:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Martin Leslie Leuschen Subject: IN> Wind/Theft Tethers Who says a Tether can't be mobile? Gypsy caravans are a good bet. A sailboat, forever sailing in it's own gust of Wind. A dust-devil that never dissapates, and a jack rabbit that follows it across the plains. The *real* "Mona Lisa," carried by the wandring Impudite you stole it hundreds of years ago, and commisioned the forgery. Or even simply: The Seneschal is swapped out every three days. Yeah, I think Janus/Valefor can have tethers even if you require the Seneschals to wander. Regards, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:45:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Martin Leslie Leuschen Subject: IN> Andre's Vessels >Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:56:33 -0500 (CDT) >From: "Austin G. Loomis" >Subject: IN> Re: Andre's Vessels >To Martin Leslie Leuschen: Thanks for listing all Andre's vessels, but I What I gave was just a start. Thats what I meant by the "..." >have to point out, as *the* unregistered SubGenius, that you forgot the >Prairie Squid vessel. That I did. Sorry Austin - I should have remebered that one. Mea culpa, mea culpa mea maxima culpa. Hrmmm - ??:"Prairie squid?" Anything like the Prairie Oysters we have back home? Regards, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:10:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #387 > > > I _love_ to set up situations (that haven't involved rape so > far) where the players have to choose between their character's > ethics and their goals. It's a classic situation (literally!) of > being caught between one's sense of self and one's desires/duties. > Sometime people choose one way or another or dither about until > the decision is taken out of their hands. Occasionally, the > very, very clever players manage to satisfy both... or neither. Such choices mesh wonderfully with a game of In Nomine. It helps to remind players that being an Angel is more than just having a bunch of powers. I *never* G.M. a game of In Nomine *without* moral dilemmas. After all, doing the right thing is what being an Angel is all about. Greg. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:36:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Superiors at the Movies > >Phallus in Wonderland > > > > Er, I'd have to agree with that one; definitely better then Skul Hed Face > despite the cameos.:) The commercials rocked in SkulHed Face (Kobal poking > fun at Nybbas), but there's more music in Phallus. I haven't gotten to see either one, but I've heard about them. And "The Insidious Soliloquy of Doctor Professor SkulHedFace" makes a good theme for Vapula. > (Oh, btw, if you're a GWAR fan, I understand that the new Ragnarok video is > out, and pretty damn funny. Flattus hogs the camera half the time. I'm > going to try to mooch a free copy out of Brad (Jizmak) when I go to the > Cleveland show on Halloween.) *sigh* I'd love to catch one of their shows some day, but most of the other fans scare me. ;'} > SeanMike > reading Good Omens for the first time today Oops da Ogre, GWAR and Good Omens, two great tastes... mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:12:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Greg Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil > > > > > >> 2: I say "seems" because...how can I know? I've found, however, that this > >> kind of thing can be reflective of the person in general. > > > >Perhaps it can. But what evidence is there that playing evil characters > >makes people act out such atrocities in real life. > > I never said that. I didn't mean to suggest that you did. Just that if there isn't a causal link in this direction, there is no reason not to play such characters. > It's stupid to say that because someone played > his first evil character, he is now going to go steal candy from children. > My possible cause and effect runs in the opposite direction. It's more that > I wonder about how the person already is if they really want to spend their > recreational time with pretend atrocities. As I noted, "seem" is very much > the operative word. I've never roleplayed with anyone who wanted to do that > stuff anyway (in the game). O.K.. This is compatible with thinking that playing evil characters should be done at every opportunity. > > Greg. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:01:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil > >>>Motive does indeed count in real life. And it counts when we judge the > character morally. But the point, if I understand it, was that *players* > tend to involve themselves in games where the fine, upstanding, moral > heroes are put in the unfortunate position (oh darn it!) of having to gun > down hoards of baddies so that right may prevail. The characters do what > they do because it is right. The *player* does what they do because it is > fun. Players tend to *like* pretending gunning down hoards of people and > playing a hero who has no other ethical choice gives them the chance to do > so.<<< > > Yes, but what about players who like pretending to gun down innocent people > at a McDonald's? What about them? They are playing morally bad characters who are acting for morally bad reasons. The players themselves are doing something morally neutral and are inspired by neither good nor evil motives. > > >>>There may be. When I see research suggesting that there is, I'll stop > playing the bad guy. Remember, R.P.G.s *may* predispose one to > Satanism.<<< > > There is research suggesting that violent media helps create a violent > society. Now *this* is an interesting claim. > > (And no, I can't quote the exact studies or tell you where to find them, so > dismiss it as "unsubstantiated" if you like. I've come across them from > time to time over the years, in magazines and educational journals.) > Fair enough - damned if I can quote journals and dates at *you* either. But if you come across them again, I'd be interested. Greg. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:58:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons > >> > >> And remember -- *demons* don't get no "afterlife." If they're > >> destroyed, they're destroyed. Nothing left, nada, just some > >> tattered Forces that get recycled in the Symphony. > > > >I don't understand how you can compare death with an eternity of torture. > > Well, let's look at it from the demonic point of view. "I help these > guys avoid an eternity of torment, and I get caught. Joy. An eternity > of torment for me. And I can't even die." Well, they *can* be destroyed, which is much better if you are not on Heaven's good side. > > I'm not saying demons aren't nasty, aren't selfish, aren't cowards. > But they're not always evil because they *enjoy* it. Neither did I. I just said they were evil as...well, as evil as Hell. > And, as those > who play In Nomine backwards well know, there are shades of black as > well as gray. I'd rather deal with a laid-back (or at least > uninvolved with humans) Impudite of the Game than a Habbalite of Fate, > or a Calabite of Fire. This is fair, say I. > > And I think you over-estimate some people's desire to remain > self-aware individuals. Eternity is a long time, and even in In > Nomine Hell, might not be *really* eternity. A damned soul could > get traded to a kinder Prince, Hey - its the *hope* that *really* hurts. And trading is as likely to occur in the other direction. > or wait for the final War (and hope > that Heaven wins!)... This will only work if you think Heaven will *save* you once it wins. In Dante's Inferno, the triumph of heaven is a sign for all the torments in hell to get more *intense*. Greg. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:51:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> On Playing Evil > > > > >Its just that the way you put it above seemed to suggest that losing touch > >with reality was on a continuum with enjoying playing an evil character, > > No, it's the other way around, or skew. There is the continum of > "losing touch with reality" and when you put "plays evil characters" > on it, is when you get the "too much." That much is fine, but it looks to me as if you take this model back later. > > >that the person who goes out an *does* evil things is like the person who > >pretends to *only more so*. > > Ah, but it *is* "only more so." Just as an eco-terrorist is a lover > of nature, only more so. Whatwhatwhatwhatwhatwhatwhat? You are being consistent, but I just don't see how you get this. There is more to an eco-terrorist than just an extreme love of nature. There are also certain views concerning human beings in operation. > Or a nympho is someone who enjoys sex, > only "more so." (Or at least is *obsessed* with it...) A nympho is, yet. A rapist isn't. > > >This, naturally, bothered me. I enjoy > >playing an evil character but am no more likely to go out and perform > >attrocities than you are. > > Put any behavior on the continuum of "light-normal-enthusiastic- > obsessive", and you'll get the same reaction from me. There's a point > of "too much" for everything. But I can be as entustiastic-obsessive about predending to be evil as anyone in the world without having the slightest enthusiasm for actually *doing* evil. These are the things that I don't see as being on a continuum. > > >> >> I think it's the "getting off on" phrasing. Without modifying > >> >> circumstances, somebody who evidences pleasure in the concept > >> >> of hurting others is a little odd. > >> > > >> >"Odd" seems an odd choice of words. > >> > >> Odd. Not normal. > > > >But this is the R.P.G. default. Violence is amazingly common in > >role-playing games. Most sessions of most people's games will include > >some fighting. > > But is the person obtain pleasure from the concept of *hurting* > the enemy, or of "succeeding in the task"? If the goal is to > toast all the orcs, then yes, there's pleasure to succeed -- but > is it in the pain inflicted, or in sheparding your character to > success? For some reason, achieving success tends to require toasting a bunch of Orcs. Why? There is no reason why the G.M. can't set things up so that success is best achieved through peaceful means. But problems that require lashings of the old ultra-violent happen to be pretty popular. > > >> With lack of other referent points, maybe even dangerous. > > > >You need more than just enjoying the idea. You need the *reality* to > >appeal to you. Its not like I'm a psychopath with a conscience, wanting > >to hurt people all the time but held back by my outstanding moral nature. > >I genuinetly don't want to gun people down in real life. This is > >compatible with playing Doom until my eyes bleed. > > If you say so... But you're not seeing what I wrote -- > *With lack of other referent points*. If all I knew of you is that > you liked to play Doom until your eyes bled, then I might be a little > alarmed or predisposed to consider you mildly threatening. However, > I know that you like In Nomine, so obviously you're not totally evil. > O;> :) I misunderstood what you meant by "lack of other reference points". But my position was really just that there is nothing wrong with playing the bad guy. And this seems compatible with what you want to maintain. > If you didn't know me, you might wonder at *my* deep dark corners. > I *like* putting my fictional characters into troublesome circumstances. > In the case of my In Nomine characters, I enjoy dragging them through > Hell (or at least parts ofit). You should see the stuff I *don't* > write down! I torment my characters, and/or they torment each other. > Worried yet? Nope. Sorry. :> > > >...I just said that violence in R.P.G.s is the norm. Look at the > >popularity of AD&D. Look at the endless books on guns and engines of > >destruction that get churned out into R.P.G. stores. Look at the > >majority of adventures that get published. Look at the equipment lists in > >just about any game you care to mention and see how much of it it taken up > >with weaponry. > > > > It is you and I who are the odd ones out, not those who play lots of > >violent games. > > True, though by the time it's been sanitized down to die-rolls, I'm > not sure it's the kind of violence that one worries about I agree, but I don't see why any other sort of violence *should* be more worrying. > -- we've seen > enough violence of that nature to not be as worried. We know most people > don't go around the bend from it. It's not a potential warning sign of > "too much" of anything. Don't we also know that most people who play evil characters don't go around the bend? Of course, it *is* a *potential* warning sign of "too much". If someone liked loads of violence, then they might play games with loads of violence. We just know that its not a potential sign that needs to be taken very seriously - and I think that enjoying playing the bad guy is another potential warning sign that doesn't doesn't need to be taken so danged seriously. > > Someone who evidences pleasure, not in slaying the orc with dice > and removing the counter, but in torturing one for information... Why is killing a less awful thing to take pleasure in? > Someone who evidences pleasure in torturing "innocent civilians"... > Without anything else to go by but *that*, well. The player gets to have their character torture someone whether it is for a good cause in the game or a bad one. And, of course, the player themself is *not* working for a good cause. They are just trying to have fun in either case. So *their* decision looks morally on a par to me. > > Motives and context is *everything* in figuring out where someone > is on the "normal-too much" continuum of anything. And we're probably > not going to have any sort of other consensus over email... > Hm. Methinks this is a hint that you are ready to see this thread die... O.K.. :) Greg. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:08:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> On playing demons > > > > And remember -- *demons* don't get no "afterlife." If they're > > > destroyed, they're destroyed. Nothing left, nada, just some > > > tattered Forces that get recycled in the Symphony. > > I don't understand how you can compare death with an eternity of torture. > > Death is only negatively bad - it only sucks because of the good things > > that you miss out on. But an eternity of torture, on the other hand, is > > the worst possible thing that can happen to someone. Note also that the > > intensity of the pleasures that the demons miss out on are in now way > > comparible in intensity to the suffering of a victem of torture. > Actually, by your own point, they must be; demons have the > potential to live forever, and thereby to experience *infinite* pleasure. O.K.. Here we get into the tricky, but vital, area of comparing the magnitude of infinites. It is mathematically difficult, but if you accept that an eternity of having your fingernails pulled out is worse than having an eternity of a slight ache in one of your little fingers, you should be willing to accept that allowing many people to be tortured forever so that you may seek pleasure forever is at least as bad as allowing many people to be tortured for 10 years so that you are free to seek pleasure for 10 years. That's enough to be pretty damned evil, even if we aren't willing to say that it is infinitely evil (which we well might). > Beyond that, In Nomine's Hell DOESN'T torture human souls > infinitely. Not everywhere conducts intinite torture in the most brutal sense of the word, nor is all the torture continuous. But torture is a big part of the system in Hell. Prisoners in Nazi prison camps weren't always tortured in the most brutal manner imaginable and even those who were received *some* respite. But it would be a lousy way to spend forever. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 14:14:25 -0300 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN> backwards > {MaBarry has been absolutely plagued of late with the conviction that > Kobal and Lilith are the same being, but I think that would necessitate > that if someone squeezes Lilith's breast, they get squirted with > water...so Andre, at least, would know.} Yes, I do. But I'm *not* telling... ):-) Andre, D.P. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:22:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Ozmodeus Subject: Re: IN> backwards According to Elizabeth McCoy: > At 11:41 AM -0600 10/8/97, Kingsley Lintz wrote: > >> Out of curiousity, how many other people play (or want to play) IN > >> backwards? So far, we have three (Oops, Em, and me). > > *a-HEM* > > (I'd play in a MEBP. *hem* PBEM... But a small role. Very small. > Maybe a familiar...) > I would also try it. Just for the enrichment experience. Of course, what with the whole "evil is" debate, it might be cool to play a Nazi-esque Good errr Evil errrr Good angel.... Maybe they're just misled :):):) Dan Ozdowski, confused but willing... - -- Remember: The light at the end of the tunnel COULD be an oncoming dragon. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:28:09 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> [FICTION] Chess Game > >> >Me, my personal fantasy would be meeting Eli in a female vessel... :9 > >> Oooooo..... > > Nah, Eli's too predictable. (Hey, does Novalis do the whole > Too predictable? > Let me give you the following lines, which could easily be adapted to any > sexually active Servitor of Creation (i. e. all of them). Exactly. Anyone you can that casually say, "i.e. all of them" about, is too predictable. What about the sexually active Seraph of Yves. "This is going to be the best orgasm of your life..." Or of Michael. "No, I WON'T put the feather duster down. Hey, all's fair, and all that..." Or of David. "I'm sorry, Tod..I've just never been able to enjoy it with only one person. Let's get Chris and Cheryl and Claire and Bob over here and party." Or Jean. "Hey, we've got to try out this new toy!" Or Marc. "Strip poker, anyone?" (I'm willing to bet that Seraph of Trade attunement works just dandy for gambling...look someone in the eye and know -exactly- how high they're willing to go on this hand...as if bluffing Seraphim wasn't bad enough normally.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 19:12:41 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Bast On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Martin Leslie Leuschen wrote: > _The Marches_ claims Bast is slowly fading away. I find this strange, > considering the amount of cat-fanatics there are out there. She isn't faiding away, she just doesn't deal with humans all that much. Her true followers, the felines, are keeping her in more then enough essence. I still think that Cherubs of Jordi are just former sublings of Bast that she decided to loan out. > Or is Jordi just intercepting most of the Essence so generated? Sharing in part maybe, but see my comment above. > Beth, are you forgetting to send Bast some Essence every Tuesday? I should hope she isn't forgetting. After all that was done for her housemates. Shadowcat (one of the last HUMAN preists of Bast) ******************************************************************************** Nothing's more playful than a young cat nor more grave then an old one. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:44:04 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Tethers to Janus or Valefor >On Oct 8, 9:23pm, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >> Subject: IN> Tethers to Janus or Valefor >> Here's a corundrum for Those Who Know. >> >> A Tether has a Seneschal to watch over it, right? >> >> No Seneschal, no Tether. >> >> However, servitors of Janus and Valefor cannot stay in the same area (let's >> say a twenty mile radius, since 'area' isn't specified anywhere in the IN >> Rulebook). >> >> How can a Servitor of either of these Superiors anchor and consecrate a >> Tether, much less stick around to watch over it? > > A) Superiors impose dissonance conditions depending on their >nature. They can also relieve valued Servitors of the limitations as >well. > B) Tethers can reduce Dissonance... and who spends more time >there than the Seneschal! > C) Moving tethers are possible (there's an example in The >Marches) > D) Other odd situations are possible depending on the GM >(two or more senshcals for the same tether, perhaps the seneschal >takes frequent breaks leaving the tether vulnerable, etc) > > So for 'A', a _very_ valuable servitor might get this, >but I think Valefor or Janus would be reluctant to use this option >(though it is possible). 'B' would be kinda interesting. The >seneschal torn between his duties and his inner desires... sounds >dangerous! 'C' won't work for you. One of the ideas behind >'D' could solve it neatly, however. Let's say the Seneschal >is gone four days out of seven to avoid dissonance but fairly >tough allies (and those who need to relieve dissonance of their >own) guard it in his/her absence. > This helps, but the specific situation is problematic. Here's how it comes down. The town is Eloy, Arizona, a small town near the interstate between Tuscon and Phoenix (both 1/2 hour away via I-10) whose industry has been geared over almost entirely to servicing truckers. The border crossing at Nogalitos is less than two hours away. El Paso, TX is within 5 hours' drive, San Diego, CA about 7 hours. As such, it has the potential for a major distribution point for smuggling into and out of Mexico, even more so than Nogalitos (watched too closely by INS and Customs) and Tuscon (powerful local police force). You've got a Cherub of Janus, a fairly potent one, who has Attuned himself to a specific no-tell motel just off the interstate, much used for transferring or stealing cargoes in secret. He wants to consecrate it as a tether to Janus. The resonances are there, it would just take one major Chaos Event... One of his human servitors, however, has just been possessed by a Shedim of Valefor, who is working to either make the hotel a Tether for Valefor... or burn it to the ground, escaping with the powerful McGuffin the Cherub has arranged to be shipped into town. Enter our PCs, who don't know about -any- of this at first, they've just been sent to get the McGuffin for Our Side. Add to this a Tether to War at Pichaco Peak Battlefield State Park (complete with a very bored Malakite of Michael) and a disillusioned Fallen servitor of Novalis who wishes to repent- to Eli... ...mayhem will ensue. }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "Don't tell me, I'm keen to http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | guess... you only know how c/o White Lightning Productions | to play fighting games, right?" http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | --- Baal, playing Super Puzzle Webmaster for Antarctic Press | Fighter Turbo with Michael http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:57:59 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [FLUFF] Superiors at the Movies >> MICHAEL - Glory. > >Or a Clint Eastwood movie. Gotta be careful here, Michael thinks his time was wasted with 'Any Which Way But Loose.' On the other hand, he really identifies with Dirty Harry. >> ANDREALPHUS - Showgirls. (It was his idea, after all...) > >Don't forget Rocky Horror! I'm not. RHPS was so weird, so wild, so -original,- only a human could have come up with it. And it's not really sexual enough for Andre to have an interest in it, so much as Kobal and Nybbas... and Eli. >> BAAL - Casualties of War. (Michael J. Who? I came to see the natives get >> blasted.) > >My vote would be Apocalypse Now. Baal does have a twisted sense of >honor, remember? Damn, another 'wish I'd thought of it.' >> BELETH - Anything by Wes Craven. > >Well, not "Shocker". That had to do with Nybbas. Silence of the Lambs >had to rank up there for her. Shocker is in- then again, anything which inspires nightmares and unreasoning terror is. Silence of the Lambs, OTOH, was a psychological thriller, not a horror movie, and as such bored her stiff. >> BELIAL - Volcano. (Good idea. Only fifty more years, and I can make it happen.) > >Firestarter- "Ooh! A cute little girl that makes things go BOOM when >she's mad..." > *nod* >> HAAGENTI - Anything with Chevy Chase in it. > >Basket Case. He identifies with the little brother. > ("Haagenti..." "BUUUURP! YEAH, BELETH?" "*Quit stealing my popcorn.*" "EEH, SHADDUP AND WATCH THE MOVIE.") >> KRONOS - Hamlet. A royal family self destructs. Beautiful. > >How about Spellbinder? > Haven't seen it, so couldn't say. >> NYBBAS - Star Trek V. (Or, alternately, 'Batman and Robin.') > >Pretty close. I'd say whatever was the most current release from a big >studio. No, it has to be especially insipid, overblown, and commercial. >> CHRISTOPHER - Fly Away Home. (Disney can still turn out heart warmers. Now >> if I could just get that money-grubber Eisner out of the hot seat.) > >Barney tapes. He wants the kids watching at home with June and Ward >about for everything works out fine and everyone loves you. And VCRs >mean the kids don't have to stay up after their bedtimes to see the >movie. Definitely NOT. Christopher HATES anything which 'talks down' to kids, and anything which takes advantage of kids- and Barney the commercial phenomenon does both. Barney is a well-intentioned concept invented by a lady in Dallas which Nybbas' servants twisted into a horrible instrument of torture. (notice total lack of smiley- I *despise* the Purple One) Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "Don't tell me, I'm keen to http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | guess... you only know how c/o White Lightning Productions | to play fighting games, right?" http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | --- Baal, playing Super Puzzle Webmaster for Antarctic Press | Fighter Turbo with Michael http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #397 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.