From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Oct 13 15:55:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA04464 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:55:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA12893 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:18:52 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:18:52 -0500 Message-Id: <199710132018.PAA12893@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #403 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, October 13 1997 Volume 01 : Number 403 In this digest: IN> whoops Re: IN> Raziel\Ghogiel [VERY LONG] Re: IN> Quick Question (was: Purgatory) Re: IN> Sacraments II Re: IN> backwards Re: IN> Janus, Valefor, and the Rest Re: IN> Raziel\Ghogiel [VERY LONG] Re: IN> Bast Re: IN> Bast Re: IN> Sacraments I Re: IN> Bast Re: IN> Bast Re: IN> [GRISTLE] Secret agent Beleth Re: IN> Bast Re: IN> Bast Re: IN> Bast Re: IN> Bast Re: IN> Sacraments II ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:45:04 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: IN> whoops one person sent me a request for the Celtic gods file, but i mistakenly deleted his email address before sending to him... if you wanted it, but haven't gotten it yet, please resend your request to me in private email... sorry about the bandwidth... Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert The stars blazed like the love of God, cold and distant -- R. Zelazny Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:12:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Raziel\Ghogiel [VERY LONG] > > I wouldn't know, ask the resident Lilim. > > > > After this point, I'm bowing out of the argument. There is no way there > > is ever going to be an agreement. The part of my brain that registers as > > "engineer", even when I deny it, will never accept that all of science and > > the quest for knowledge is a complete ego trip. > > > I am willing to do so too. But to be fair, you overgeneralized. I > didn't say all scientists. I specifically targeted groups who, in > general, have specialized applications, and more then their fair share > of egomaniacs. Or to put it more generalized, anyone can learn to do a > tarot reading, but to be the "Carl Sagan" of sorcery takes ego. I am aware of this, which is why I included a demon prince AND an archangel. You don't need to preach to the converted. But I also know that science is a pretty thankless job, too. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:08:11 +1000 From: christopher.stevenson@aihw.gov.au (Christopher Stevenson) Subject: Re: IN> Quick Question (was: Purgatory) >> Perhaps souls get lost in the Reaches. > >What are the Reaches? Is it the same as the Far Marches, where the >pagan gods are? > >Vz Sorry, I meant to type the Marches. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:50:45 -0500 (CDT) From: "Austin G. Loomis" Subject: Re: IN> Sacraments II So she's a Master of Divine Knowledge? So what did she pick as her additional Choir resonance? (Ofanite, I presume, from your giving her that Choir attunement, but you didn't *say.*) Austin G. "Too lazy to look up her name" Loomis, MiSTie #84029, signing off and heading for bed... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:46:19 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> backwards > [Regarding the "email people are Superiors, face to face people are > servitors" plot] > > >once - and I don't mean taken in that way...), as is Lilith > >(assuming our friendly neighbor hood LE is interested). > > If you think I'd do a good job... I've read your stuff on the Lilim. I know you'd do a good job. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. - George Carlin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:46:19 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Janus, Valefor, and the Rest > somehow i managed to fit my Celtic obsession into IN... if > anyone is interested, i have some material from Alexei Kondratiev > (a professor of linguistics who specializes in the Celts and > Celtic religion) on the gods of the Celts... it's pretty long, so > i won't post it to the list, but i'd be happy to send it in > private email... it might help in fleshing out Faerie a little... Well, if it's no extra work on your part, feel free to send it to me. > Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface. You know, there are days when I wish Pegasus had a .sig randomizer (and could hold more than 10 sigs at once). Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. - George Carlin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:46:19 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Raziel\Ghogiel [VERY LONG] > > Off topic, I spend alot of time staring at a computer. I sunk > > $85K into this privelage. Have you ever read the WIRED article > > on Technopagans? Well, do so, it's an interesting read. I am > > not one, but I appreciate the standpoint. > > I don't know. Most hackers I've run into or heard about were all > about a "me" thing; " 'I' can hack into AT&T", "'I've' been into > the Pentegon Accounting Program". It's a big ego thing. Whether > they use their skills to send funds to Mother Theresa, or set up a > little retirement fund, it's still an "I'm clued in to this arcane > stuff, you are part of the clueless herd". This is where that > selfishness/ego comes in. That's not hacking in the way Em meant it - that's cracking. Most crackers call themselves hackers, but "true hackers" (who can be best described with the GURPS disadvantage Compulsive Programming) make the distinction, often with violent undertones in their voice. Cracking has given hacking a bad name... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. - George Carlin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:40:46 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Bast Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Got any suggestions for good research books on the Egyptian Pantheon? The works of E. A. Wallis Budge are still readily available through Dover Books, though they are pretty dated by now, since he was a late Victorian. I used his "From Fetish to God in Ancient Egypt." I also used the Egyptian section of the LaRousse Encyclopeida of World Mythology, and an excellent book entitled "Red Land, Black Land," by Barbara Mertz. One thing about ancient Egyptian mythology -- unlike, say, the Greeks, the Egyptians were merrily unconcerned with narrative consistency. They had about four separate mythologies, with four separate creation myths, but overlapping casts of gods. For my book, I deliberately syncretized them into a single story, because modern readers ARE concerned with narrative consistency -- *especially* roleplayers. Earl W. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:27:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Bast > > > Got any suggestions for good research books on the Egyptian Pantheon? > > The works of E. A. Wallis Budge are still readily available through > Dover Books, though they are pretty dated by now, since he was a > late Victorian. I used his "From Fetish to God in Ancient Egypt." NO. *NO.* PLEASE GOD NO. Do not read any Budge stuff. It is AWFUL. It is INACCURATE. It is a pack of magick crap. His translations HAVE to be the worst translations on the planet. And I've seen some bad ones. Hell, I've generated some bad ones. I generated once that the commoner sat on the pharoah's face from a perfectly innocent 10th dynasty text, and it wasn't as bad as Budge. Please please please please look again through your bookshelves. Please. I beg. I'm on my knees here. Please. It's a geas and everything. Don't be pushing that horrible trash to people who are just beginning to learn about it. Don't kill the Egyptians off that way. I can email my professor and get you some good, accurate sources for the religion if there is that much interest. I can look around myself. I can send you stuff IN HIEROGLYPICS if you want. I'll translate it by hand for you. Just don't use the Budge stuff. *sniff* *big eyes* Live in Ma'at, and all that. - - Em, who is willing to take a Geas/6 to keep some accuracy in a perfectly convoluted, confusing, bizarre and beautiful set of beliefs. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:57:05 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Sacraments I What happened to the previous angels of this Word? Earl W. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:33:38 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Bast > > The works of E. A. Wallis Budge are still readily available through > NO. *NO.* PLEASE GOD NO. > - Em, who is willing to take a Geas/6 to keep some accuracy in a perfectly > convoluted, confusing, bizarre and beautiful set of beliefs. Uh, Em...if you're not careful, we're going to have to change you over to the Demon of Really -CARING- About The Egyptian Mythos. (But, I, for one, will promies to avoid Budge. The mournful puppy eyes just weren't fair at all.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:00:42 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Bast Em, perhaps you should read some of the archeological mysteries of Elizabeth Peters, featuring Amelia Peabody. She and her husband share your opinion of Budge. Earl W. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:08:54 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> [GRISTLE] Secret agent Beleth Well, *I* found it oblique. But then, I haven't read "Marches." Earl W. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:06:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Shadowcat Subject: Re: IN> Bast On Mon, 13 Oct 1997, Emily Dresner wrote: > NO. *NO.* PLEASE GOD NO. > > Do not read any Budge stuff. It is AWFUL. It is INACCURATE. It is a > pack of magick crap. His translations HAVE to be the worst translations > on the planet. And I've seen some bad ones. Hell, I've generated some > bad ones. I generated once that the commoner sat on the pharoah's face > from a perfectly innocent 10th dynasty text, and it wasn't as bad as > Budge. > > Please please please please look again through your bookshelves. Please. > I beg. I'm on my knees here. Please. It's a geas and everything. Don't > be pushing that horrible trash to people who are just beginning to > learn about it. Don't kill the Egyptians off that way. > > I can email my professor and get you some good, accurate sources for the > religion if there is that much interest. I can look around myself. I can > send you stuff IN HIEROGLYPICS if you want. I'll translate it by hand > for you. Just don't use the Budge stuff. > > *sniff* *big eyes* If you think he is that bad I promise not to take him seriously, but I AM a cat. I at least have to look. Shadowcat: the last HUMAN preist of Bast All cats may look upon a king. No comment on the Queen ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:51:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Bast > > > > The works of E. A. Wallis Budge are still readily available through > > NO. *NO.* PLEASE GOD NO. > > - Em, who is willing to take a Geas/6 to keep some accuracy in a perfectly > > convoluted, confusing, bizarre and beautiful set of beliefs. > > Uh, Em...if you're not careful, we're going to have to change you > over to the Demon of Really -CARING- About The Egyptian Mythos. (But, I, > for one, will promies to avoid Budge. The mournful puppy eyes just > weren't fair at all.) > Don't tell anyone. It's a seeeeecret. :) *sigh* I was brainwashed in college. You should have seen me when I was in the classes. I'm surprised I didn't start a temple to Amann out of my dorm room. :) But the entire concept was intruiging... where would I put the statue? And where would I put the river? - - Em, who needs to get back to IN. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:12:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Bast > > If you think he is that bad I promise not to take him seriously, > but I AM a cat. I at least have to look. > > Shadowcat: the last HUMAN preist of Bast > > All cats may look upon a king. > No comment on the Queen ;-) > *shrug* Well, you've been warned. Just as long as you don't use it to publish anything, I don't care. Do try to get the creation of Sahkmet myth, while you're at it. And don't mind the blood. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:10:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Bast > Em, perhaps you should read some of the archeological mysteries > of Elizabeth Peters, featuring Amelia Peabody. She and her > husband share your opinion of Budge. > Actually, my opinion is fairly common, as is my reaction of screaming in pain and terror. Budge did most of his work during the period of romanticising the Egyptians, without a really good grasp of the language, or when there wasn't much standard works which had been firmly translated, like Sinuhe. It was another twenty years before most of the verb form translations became, ahem, "canon". Mostly, I believe the reason he cranked out such crap is due to really poor translations. The problem is that his works became popularized because of their 'mystical' aspect, and the publisher could make them cheap. Good Egyptology books are like good books on Operating Systems. Yes, you can find some real crappy ones down at Borders or Barnes and Noble, out of date, mildy incorrect, or just give you the surface stuff. But to get your hands on Tanenbaum you need a class or know what to order. My copy of Sir Alan Gardiner's Egyptian Grammar, co. 1951 and pre-eminent tome for learning hieroglyphics, had to be ordered from overseas, and it took three months to get to me... and it was expensive. And the book STILL doesn't come with an answer key. *sigh* *My* advice, if you don't listen to anything else, is to do one of two things: 1) Don't read anything with an initial publication date before 1950. I went on this crazy stint collecting old books from the turn of the century, and there's stuff in there that is just outright BIZARRE. 2) Read a whole bunch of stuff. Read magazines. Don't just read one author. Get something with pictures... I have several of these, and they are mildly entertaining. 3) Read a history, and make sure you get some solid geography in there. None of the religious stuff or the literature makes sense out of context. They really do change in a big way from Dynasty and Period. And make sure it references the Predynastic Period. It all starts there. Oh, and... they really are that anal. Really. *nod lots* - - Em, Masquarading as the Demon of Dead Egyptians. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:29:11 -0400 (EDT) From: CeIestiaI7@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Sacraments II In a message dated 97-10-13 00:19:30 EDT, you write: > So she's a Master of Divine Knowledge? So what did she pick as her > additional Choir resonance? (Ofanite, I presume, from your giving her > that Choir attunement, but you didn't *say.*) Yeah yeah yeah... o;-) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #403 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.