From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Wed Oct 22 11:48:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA11330 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:48:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA16400 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:24:05 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:24:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199710221624.LAA16400@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #420 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, October 22 1997 Volume 01 : Number 420 In this digest: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? IN> [DARK VICTORY] The Trap Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Return of Uriel? Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Gabriel, Archangel of Fire Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? IN> Adventure Seed: Dream a Little Dream of Me Re: IN>Dark Victory Backwards (Long) Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Andrealphus Re: IN> Raziel/Ghogiel Re: IN> [FFULF] New Demonette: Tizzy! Re: IN>Dark Victory Backwards (Long) Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes Re: IN> Redeeming Shedim: it can be done Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Re: IN> Revelations Cycle Revealed! Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Return of Uriel? IN> IN: Dice questions. Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? IN> Millenium's End ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:21:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? > >The status quo becomes the enemy, with Lilith leading a rebellion against > >a hellishly terrible tyrant. > > How can a prisoner rebel? Simple. The prisoners wait until the guards are occupied. > That's the -definition- of a Bright Victory- the Rebellion is ended. For good. But you're assuming that God is omnipotent. If he's omnipotent, then Free Will is a joke and the second rebellion is undoable, but don't believe everything you're told... And as far as the change to Yves goes, I don't think there's really been one. You will try to achieve your Destiny, what God wants from you. If you don't, well, we can't allow any rebels around so there's only one solution. > Redneck Oops da Ogre, this puts Yves and God in more of the INS light admittedly mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:27:37 -0200 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: IN> [DARK VICTORY] The Trap Kingsley Lintz wrote: > That, too. Geeze..wait'll Saminga comes to storm the Preservers > and finds them all happily still weakened...until he notices Andre, > leaning against a polished statue of a naked Novalis, grinning. "Remember > me? We never got on well, as I recall...now, you've got Death behind you, > and I'll grant, there's a lot of it going around lately...but I've got > Lust, Inspiration, Dreams, and Life behind me now. Feeling lucky, punk?" > Then tossing a wink over at Lucifer. "And you thought I'd never amount to > anything..." > Are you trying to corrup...to redeem me?? > > Given that one's Word is deeply ingrained into what one is, wouldn't > > extending his Word to include Hope and Inspiration start to change > > Andrealphus's personality? Or, perhaps it runs the other way, and > *shhhh* I was hoping Andre wouldn't notice.. I knew it! I knew it!! > > first have to change his personality to include them. While Yves > > looks on, grinning... > I just picture him resting a wrinkled hand on Eli's arm. "Just > wait, old friend...let him scheme his way into our trap." Never!! Besides, *you* were the ones who let a Demon enter Heaven. You even call me 'Archangel'... You are all blind to what I have in mind... Andre, D.P. p.s.: But the idea of getting Life as a word is fine, though... Sammy would cry and yell and rip his clothes - and it would be sooo cool...! ):-9 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:47:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? > > >What if, instead of Dark Victory, there'd been Bright Victory? > > Actually, you -can't- really have a play setting in Bright Victory. In a > Why not? If nothing else, consider the Sandman take; Lucifer > quits, and hands the key over...and it ends up going to a pair of Angels, > commanded by God to take over. One of them immediately has a fit about > being condemned to Hell when he hasn't rebelled, and, of course, > rebels... That would work. I don't have a copy of the Kindly Ones, though, because I'm lame, although a dedicated Neil Gaiman addict. :) Personally, I see saying that you "can't" have anything is on the narrow minded side. Yes, you can't have a "Heaven wins the pot" in this scenario everyone is merrily debating over, but saying you can't have a Bright Victory world is just incorrect. Maybe I like reading utopias or something, but I can think of several very nasty scenarios right off the top of my head. And one even was posted! Huzzah. I *heavily* suggest going back and reading Brave New World again, and thing long and hard about the Alphas who have shown a sense of individuality and refuse to agree with the edicts of the Ford. Me, I want to be John Savage. I had thought about writing up a Bright Victory scenario, myself. But my time right now is slim. (I'm agreeing with Kingsley, see.) > > > in a Heavenly image. Angels deviating from the Party Line are dissolved, and > And just consider that for a moment. Lucifer's defeated, the > hoards of Hell scattered to the Symphony...and Heaven immediately starts > purging everyone who's ever voiced dissent? I give it ten seconds before > another third of the Host breaks off, and we have a new Hell united under > Gabriel and Lilith...hm..actually, I'll work on this a little... > > Well, I have this vision of creating a global society on earth where all are forced to become one with Society, which is dictated by the Religion as set forth by a chosen Messiah which will Unite all humans... Either way you cut it, Eli is going to get wacked. When you become conformist, you lose your sense of creativity in return for societal happiness on a whole. Those who are dissenters are captured, and brainwashed for realigning. I dunno. Go whole hog and do 1984. I could probably dig up a whole list of Utopia novels which would work as a source of background. Emily K. Dresner, M.S.Eng. Applications Programmer III and Balseraph of the Game Desktop Applications Team - Medical Center Information Technology Current Quote: "Let's be bad." - Bart Simpson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:57:14 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Return of Uriel? On Oct 22, 2:33pm, Anthony Baxter wrote: > Subject: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Return of Uriel? > > a quick thought - in the Dark Victory universe, would God let Uriel > return? Assuming Uriel still exists in the upper reaches of Heaven, > now would be a good time to let him return - if only to help rescue > the Malakim from the labs. Uriel would the perfect foil against dark Dominic, don'tchathink? I believe that's what RG had in mind with the new Word, Cleansing. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:54:14 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Gabriel, Archangel of Fire On Oct 21, 9:47pm, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Gabriel, Archangel of Fire > At 1:57 PM -0500 10/21/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > > >As I mentioned elsewhere, the general consensus will be that Armageddeon > >-hasn't- happened yet, and this is just a tune-up for the real thing. > >However, the churches won't be doing too much intercommunication- phones > >still work in Texas as far as from Fredricksburg to Tyler, -sometimes,- but > >a message to Boston would take three days minimum by courier, and > >communicating between continents is an epic exercise in taking control of > >communications satellites in decaying orbits with equipment which can't be > >replaced most places, or getting ships across oceans where Leviathan is > >awake once more, or flying through stormy and still radioactive skies.... > > Hm, I dunno, I could see it doing some stuff in its own > right. I mean, if we're talking an IN universe here, who's to say > that we're not somewhat right -- making Soldiers and giving limited > training to the Children of the Grigori who find a way to make sense > of the universe that way... Hmmmm... I guess it was always my unstated assumption that the Grigori and the children thereof make their big impact after the DV events. Okay, now it's stated! ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:13:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? I'm trying very hard to keep the flamethrower on low, but I've had one of those days, you know? > >> in a Heavenly image. Angels deviating from the Party Line are dissolved, and > > And just consider that for a moment. Lucifer's defeated, the > >hoards of Hell scattered to the Symphony...and Heaven immediately starts > >purging everyone who's ever voiced dissent? I give it ten seconds before > >another third of the Host breaks off, and we have a new Hell united under > >Gabriel and Lilith...hm..actually, I'll work on this a little... > > > You miss the point here, though. No, I think he just has a differing opinion, which he's entirely entitled to. > Bright victory means that rebellion from the Almighty is repudiated. As it was before God made Adam Kadman from the dirt of the Earth brought to him by Azrael. Didn't stop them before. The universe can be cyclic, and certainly may be, depending on how one views things. If the person creating the universe likes the Sandman view of things, then go to it. There are certainly no absolutely when it comes to one's imagination. And Kingsley isn't even referring to YOUR universe, just an observation in general. > Dissent is one thing, dissonance will be entirely another, and Angels will > no longer have the buffer zone of being Outcast. "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Rev 1:8 There was no buffer zone before the Fall, either, and there managed to be some action. As was before, so will be. What tipped off the Fall was the creation of Man. Who is to say that the Creator isn't going to Create a whole new world? I like the "which is to come" bit myself. > All of this, of course, assumes Free Will remains in play, which I > personally doubt. And I personally think that they had it before the existance of Hell. It didn't come about with the birth of Lilith. She embodies Freedom, not Free Will, anyways. We have Yves, and he embodies pure unadultrated Deteriminism. But the game system as set forth... actually going back to the rulebook on Destiny and Fate... gives Free Will in reaching both a state of grace (destiny) and falling to hell (fate). Are we to believe that, when Heaven wins, the entire universe comes to a grinding halt? I'm sensing differing opinions here. > > I don't find Bright Victory fascinating- after all, it's already been > written in the last two chapters of Revelation. Yeah, well, we'll be sure to keep that in mind, when people are posting scenarios. Do not taunt Happy Fun Balseraph. Emily K. Dresner, M.S.Eng. Applications Programmer III and Balseraph of the Game Desktop Applications Team - Medical Center Information Technology Current Quote: "Let's be bad." - Bart Simpson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:07:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Dorothy Bixler Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 10:48 PM -0500 10/21/97, PERRY M. LLOYD wrote: > > >What if, instead of Dark Victory, there'd been Bright Victory? > > If you write it, I will put it on the INC... > Actually, Donald and I have been tring to find time to finish off the ideas we've been tossing back and forth about what would happen if the Pagan Gods won over both Heaven and Hell (wait until they've weakened each other and take control again). Stuff like what happens when the Pagan Gods of Death team up together to take out Saminga... *Dorothy Michelle Bixler * mudmh10@ecom.ecn.bgu.edu* "Gidget, have you been laying with the Horned One again?" -MST3K's Mike from "The Thing the Couldn't Die" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:27:38 -0400 (EDT) From: James Dibenedetto Subject: IN> Adventure Seed: Dream a Little Dream of Me > > Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:08:12 EST > From: PERRY > Subject: RE: IN> Adventure Seed: Dream a Little Dream of Me > > >This comes out of a story (I'm 40,000 words in, I guess I can use the word > >"novel" now) that I started a while back. It had and has nothing to do > >with In Nomine, but when I read The Marches, the "dream joining" > >attunement just jumped out at me - it's a perfect explanation for the > >(more or less) unexplained weirdness that's happening in the novel. > >Anyway, here goes... > > > >The setting is a college campus and the near environs (it doesn't matter > >that much where, except that a really big city like New York or Chicago > >would probably work less well than a smaller community). > > Why? Most people surround themselves with people who care about them, > or at least look out for them. The thought was that in a really big city like New York, where there are several hundred murders a year, police discovering the body of another victim wouldn't necessarily make the newspaper or the local newscasts right away. In a smaller city or town, it definitely would. > > >When the adventure begins, no bodies have been discovered yet, so there's > >no public outcry about it. A few girls have disappeared, but everyone > >knows that teenage girls run away, right? > > Well, I wouldn't say "teenage girls run away", maybe "teenagers run away". > Call me sheltered, but none of my friends suddenly ran away for no > apparent reason. If they we did, we pretty much knew why. True enough. But a few teenage girls "running away" over a period of a few weeks/months, wouldn't necessarily arouse suspicion of a connection. There wouldn't be a big deal made of it, unless we're talking about a *very* small community, or someone especially popular or the daughter of someone important was one of the disappearees. > > Yeah, that's weird... Any "Missing Cat" posters? > > >From either Sara herself or her roommate, the PCs will find out about the > >nightmares. The next step depends on the makeup of the party. If there > >are any servitors of Blandine, things will go much more smoothly. > > Yeah, I could see that. > > >Eventually, what the PCs will discover is this: someone is using the > >"dream joining" attunement on Sara, linking her dreamscapes with the > >dreams of this serial killer, in hopes of turning a young woman with a > >very bright future (maybe even a Destiny?) into a madwoman, or worse... > > > >The demon in question is Jackie (the Balseraph servitor of Beleth > >described on page 35 of The Marches, with dream joining as an added > >attunement). The PCs will probably have to go into the etheral realm to > >(1) figure all this out, and (2) stop Jackie. > > Or just kill the cat. OK, I guess I didn't make it clear...Jackie the demon *is* the cat. Simply killing her out of hand won't be as easy as it sounds (besides, if there's a servitor of Jordi in the party, *I* wouldn't want to be the one to suggest killing the cat without 100% proof it was the demon's vessel...). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:18:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN>Dark Victory Backwards (Long) > > Soon, all will be as it was. There will be only God. God and Yves, alone forever, as it was before Michael came between them. > > Hmmm...So, Yves and God were like...a couple? Oh my...! Tell *me* about going kinky!! > > YVES: Oh God! Oh God!! > GOD: Yes!! Yeees!!! > > Sorry, it was stronger than me... > > Andre, D.P. > You're sick. I like this. I kill you last. :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:21:02 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? > This is already in effect in IN. After the Bright Victory, though, there is > simply no room left in the system for rebels. > > That's the -definition- of a Bright Victory- the Rebellion is ended. For good. I don't quite agree with this. A very plausible explanation is that there is a second war in heaven when all the angels discover, post-victory, that God isn't all he was cracked up to be. That Lucifer rebelled for very, very good reasons but the only route he could take made him look like the villian of the universe. That the Bright One purposely took the throne of Evil to defeat an even greater evil... God himself. Some will still serve God loyally, but others might choose to fight even if they know they are doomed. At the very least, it'd be fun seeing the original fallen snicker at the new guys and saying "I told you so..." Perhaps Lucifer's last act could be to exercise his old Word (light, in the aspect of Illumination) to reveal enough of God's plans to cause the second rebellion. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:32:41 -0400 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? > (1) THERE MUST BE A MECHANISM FOR REBELLION. > > Remember that, unlike in Dark Victory, a Bright Victory WILL end in total > Heavenly rule over Earth, if not the total destruction and recreation of > Earth. Rebels CANNOT hide there. Ahhhh, but you can draw a parallel between DV and BV. In a BV campaign, the forces of Hell are routed, and Hell is laid open, but everything isn't in place yet (i.e. victory is not yet total). > (2) WHO REBELS FROM UTOPIA? > > A Bright Victory is, by definition, total. I don't agree. Just like Dark Victory, the BV campaign _starts_ with Hell's defeat... which doesn't have to be total. > (3) WHOSE SIDE IS GOD REALLY ON? In BV, God is on God's side. The premise I put forward is that God has a plan that is manifestly evil that even some of his most ardent supporters (the Archangels) are repulsed. Lucifer was the first to discover the plan and voluntarily took on, by definition, the hardest job in the universe-- overthrowing God. Well, he failed. One possible plan is that God doesn't intend to bring heaven to Earth. Perhaps he's decided that Creation is flawed and he wants to wipe it all clean... forever. There is no new creation, just eternal emptiness. To do this properly, though, he needs command of every free-willed being in the universe. > > (4) HOW DO YOU GET AROUND EARTHLY UTOPIA? Utopia does not come about because God is like what everyone though He was like. Whoops! > (5) FINITE POWER V. INFINITE POWER > > In DV, I restricted the power levels involved by removing God as an active > force and reducing Lucifer in his Redemption to his pre-Fall power levels. > In a BV universe, however, you will almost certainly have to deal with God's > real and active presence in Celestials' -daily lives.- The victory of Light > implies that God has reclaimed his Creation from the rebels, and that means > He is taking not only a direct but a forceful hand in affairs from now on. God is no longer infinitely powerful. His Big Mistake (from his point of view) was to make Free Willed creations. Each one siphoned off some of his power... moreover, they in turn could make more Freewilled beings! I also view God as a very slow mover. That's why he made angels... to handle the other stuff for Him. Still, he's no force to mess with and the New Rebels are hard pressed to hold back the progress of 'paradise'. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:19:50 +0000 From: "A. Nachmias" Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Andrealphus Hello, > I don't know..you can do some VERY kinky stuff with zombis... Sick! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:19:50 +0000 From: "A. Nachmias" Subject: Re: IN> Raziel/Ghogiel Kenneth Winland wrote: > Could some one send me this file? I missed it the first time > around, and these Princes sound interesting. Thanks a bunch! Here too please. Best Regards, A. Nachmias ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:19:50 +0000 From: "A. Nachmias" Subject: Re: IN> [FFULF] New Demonette: Tizzy! Hello, > Of course, I've been acting under a misapprehension... just checked the > book, and apparently it's not actually Dissonant for a Djinn to care. > So I guess Tizzy could care. The book isn't God (Umm, to the best of my knowledge). Even if the book doesn't say so explicitly, you can understand by the description of Djinn that not only they don't care, they like not caring! Even if it doesn't appear in the book, choirs are choirs, and a Djinn that cares, phaa! Best Regards, A. Nachmias ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 09:54:34 PDT From: "Chris Jackson" Subject: Re: IN>Dark Victory Backwards (Long) Redneck Gaijin wrote: > > Disturbingly fascinating, but doesn't ring true for me somehow. > > Why? > > Because of the last sentence in the above. (changing Yves) Very true. I'm taking much greater liberties than you, but I hat to make Yves a villain *somehow*. Looking back, it's not as playable a scenario as I'd hoped, but it was a fun mind-game. > My goal with Dark Victory is to develop the Superiors logically through > Armageddeon into the situations I described. In each case, the Superior's > Word turns and twists their personality, forcing some to change, preventing > others from changing... And I was just playing around. > In any case, I find the brief description of your Backwards Bright > Victory a thousand times more terrifying than the darkest images in my mind > of Dark Victory. Thank you. It's supposed to be scary. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:14:33 -0500 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > And she screams her rejection of this Truth to the empty skies, to > the winds, to the butchered Earth and beyond, to the wreckage of > Heaven itself. "*NO*! THIS SHALL NOT BE! IT WILL NOT END LIKE THIS!" > > She sees what must be done, to save humanity, to save Freedom, to > save herself. The first thing is to save the humans, and if there > is pain and weariness on that road, so be it. She has lived her > entire life for free will, and this is what she chooses to do with > that free will. > > And then the high point is empty but for the wind, sweeping away > the footprints of the Woman that God created. God have Mercy, between AA Beth, Redneck Gaijin, and the other talented writers on this list, y'all could write quite a book!! Done in a Storyteller's Circle [you know, I start something, then pass it along to the next person, who tells more of the overall story, and so on til everyone is ready to say The End], with this {Lilith at Nightfall} leading into RG's Seeds of Hope/Fate, followed by ?... bowing his head, humbled at the Majesty of God revealed on this list, tom timberlake ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:19:50 +0000 From: "A. Nachmias" Subject: Re: IN> Redeeming Shedim: it can be done Hello, > And finally, of course, the Shedite only needs one evil action per day. > There's nothing dissonant about doing *good*. A Shedite could inhabit a > serial killer with an obsession with cleanliness, spend most of the day > helping people out and doing good, then on his way home pee against a > wall in a dark alley - measurable harm, contrary to the serial killer's > own moral code, but no great shakes compared to what the guy could have > done, and what he actually did that day. > I'd like to know what people think about this. Is this possible, or am I > being too lenient? Hell too lenient! Shedite does bad and enjoys it! What's the point of peeing against a wall when you can pee against a body, placed on a wall, you just killed? Every demon has problem in redeeming himself. How can an Impudite not steal essence? The only difference in Shedim is that that not doing their resonance, *is* their dissonance. Find other ways. Best Regards, A. Nachmias. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:15:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory Littmann Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? > > > What if, instead of Dark Victory, there'd been Bright Victory? > > I mean, Heaven probably wouldn't know what to do with itself, no longer > having to work so hard to save so few souls from the darkness below. > I think this is a great *idea*, although a few standard rulings might have to be disgarded to make it work properly. How about *this*: The demons are obliterated, but the higher levels of heaven are *not* opened and Yahweh still won't come out from behind the curtain to take charge of building the utopia. The Archanagels will have to administrate then. But they have different *visions* of what utopia should be. Moreover, Evil hasn't vanished from the world. People are still bad sometimes even *without* demonic help (that damned free will again). How does Heaven handle this situation? Michael wants to handle it one way and Novalis quite another! Now the archangels have no demonic butt to kick, they will suddenly be working against *each other*. And the fact that David's ideas on how to deal with evil are well intensioned doesn't mean that they will be any less horrific to Janus. Serious politics and serious moral quandries emerge. Greg. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:19:50 +0000 From: "A. Nachmias" Subject: Re: IN> Revelations Cycle Revealed! Hello, > > While the setting is cool, the rules, ummmmmmmm..... bite? Is that > > a good word? How about, "It makes KULT playable." > And what, pray tell, have you got against KULT? I played KULT once, 4 eight hours sessions with a good GM, after that the group just decided to respectfully decline. In other words, they kicked KULT's red ass out of heaven's door. And why? The main annoying thing in KULT, or should I say, the reason we stopped playing, is that the characters are so insignificant in the whole setting. You play a 'Sherlock Holmes', you need to discover the explore what's behind some very weird events, you have a high mortality rate (lots of your characters find themselves in the morgue) and even if you do find out something - You can't do nothing about it (especially against those pompous Azguls). What's the point of role-playing if your character means nothing? Can influence not? When from the start you know you have no chance of killing that thing, or completely solving the mystery? To be frank, Call of Cthulu (Cthulu for president! Why settle for a lesser evil?) is more or less the same, there too you have no chance of "winning", still, the game's more fun - You have that sanity throw things and stuff... ;-) Best Regards, A. Nachmias ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:28:29 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Return of Uriel? >On Oct 22, 2:33pm, Anthony Baxter wrote: >> Subject: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Return of Uriel? >> >> a quick thought - in the Dark Victory universe, would God let Uriel >> return? Assuming Uriel still exists in the upper reaches of Heaven, >> now would be a good time to let him return - if only to help rescue >> the Malakim from the labs. > > Uriel would the perfect foil against dark Dominic, >don'tchathink? I believe that's what RG had in mind with >the new Word, Cleansing. > No, I picked Cleansing for two reasons. First off, I think it's a better Diabolic equivalent to Dominic's play on Judgement than Prejudice would be... and less likely to have every single other demon pounce and scream, "*MY* WORD!!" Second, Cleansing is a more -obsessive- word than Prejudice or Injustice or what have you. Uriel doesn't fit with the DV group, though, since Purity would be hard put to accept -demons- in Heaven. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:19:50 +0000 From: "A. Nachmias" Subject: IN> IN: Dice questions. Hello, I'm beginning a new In-Nomine campaign and I was pondering about the repeating diceless/diceful question every GM in almost every RPG deals with. Basically, the book gives details about everything you might want to use the dice with. I don't plan to use the dice on every single event, that's silly, but some more significant events, like ascending to heaven, singing songs, etc. are meant to be diceful. Yes, when I think of it, In-Nomine can very easily be played diceless, hell, I don't see what reason is for an Angel or a Demon to fail a song. The way I see songs, they are the expressions of the angel himself, he's reciting his own essence - How can someone actually *fail*? Of course, having a song at level 1 doesn't mean the celestial failed, only the effect was so meek, noone noticed it. Divine/Infernal intervention? You probably ask without stating it. Umm, I can picture a scene: The angel tries to open a door and gets a 111. Holy christ! God appears as a waiter, you can hear heaven's choirs sing loudly, as he open the door for you! Amazing? I think not. My point being: Divine/Infernal intervention should not be completely random and limited to certain significant scenes as the GM sees fit to prevent from ridiculous scenes where God/Lucifer helps/damages opening a miserable door, or other silly scenes. Dice are bad. Well, mostly bad. I admit some games can't be played without the help of randomness, dice. Still, dice, as I see it, takes some of the role-playing - When you waste time on throwing dice, calculating check-digits, damage points, characteristic points lost and so on, you actually waste time where you could have developed your character. On the other hand, some play more for the battles and less for the role-playing (not munchkins, those play only for the battles, and for the +19,000 two handed sword, of course. ;-)). Here, I've reached a decision. Writing a letter about the question always does that to me. ;-) Best Regards, A. Nachmias ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:40:40 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? > >I'm trying very hard to keep the flamethrower on low, but I've had one of >those days, you know? I know, and for that reason I've taken every roadblock I could think of about a BV universe and wrapped them up in one post. >> You miss the point here, though. > >No, I think he just has a differing opinion, which he's entirely entitled >to. And I have mine, which I will defend like a rabid akapi. }:-{D >The universe can be cyclic, and certainly may be, depending on how one >views things. If the person creating the universe likes the Sandman view >of things, then go to it. There are certainly no absolutely when it comes >to one's imagination. The Sandman variant, for what little I know of Sandman, would't be apocalyptic. >> All of this, of course, assumes Free Will remains in play, which I >> personally doubt. > >And I personally think that they had it before the existance of Hell. >It didn't come about with the birth of Lilith. She embodies Freedom, not >Free Will, anyways. > >We have Yves, and he embodies pure unadultrated Deteriminism. But the >game system as set forth... actually going back to the rulebook on Destiny >and Fate... gives Free Will in reaching both a state of grace (destiny) >and falling to hell (fate). Are we to believe that, when Heaven wins, the >entire universe comes to a grinding halt? I'm sensing differing opinions >here. Yep, from when the Fall actually occurred down to what a Heavenly utopia would entail. And if God's rule -isn't- Utopia, what possible hope does any of His creation have, even in rebellion? Lucifer rebelled not because God's rule was unjust, but because Lucifer thought he saw a better way... he just lost track of that Better Way in his fight to take over. >> I don't find Bright Victory fascinating- after all, it's already been >> written in the last two chapters of Revelation. > >Yeah, well, we'll be sure to keep that in mind, when people are posting >scenarios. > >Do not taunt Happy Fun Balseraph. > I'll keep an eye on it, in passing... but from now on I'm keepin' my big yap shut. The late-last-night post sums up all I got to say, in a mostly flame-proof package. }:-{D *yawn* now gotta get my mouth shut on BV an' get back to DV... Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:36:02 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: IN> Millenium's End Here's another Dark Victory spinoff concept-- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - This time, there was no wondering about the date. A thousand years. To the day, to the minute, to the femtosecond. Crowds gathered in Paris, around Notre Dame, restored after Armageddon, and now the base of a glittering ionoscraper. Holo-motes swarmed, transmitting the images around Earth and the Solar System. At the moment, the only thing to see was the crowd itself -- Earthly humans, saints, celestials, ethereals, heroes, Grigorites, AIs, neo-beasts, all standing (or hovering) in waiting silence. There were similar crowds elsewhere -- Rome, Machu Pichu, Easter Island, Benares, High Toykyo in synchronous orbit, all the places with great public Tethers -- but this was the second largest. Only the crowd in Jerusalem was larger. In those crowds, none were ill, none were maimed, none were poor unless you counted the deliberately ascetic. Those who looked old wore their centuries lightly, like Lamech and Methuselah at the opposite end of history. But now, after a thousand years of utopia, they were all worried. A flash. Michael materialized, in a human vessel, wearing the shimmering armor he had last worn on Armageddon. A moment later and Dominic appeared, a silver serpent in a robe of white, six wings furling. It nodded to Michael, gravely, politely. Michael nodded back. They entered side by side as, behind them, more Archangels appeared -- Novalis, David, Janavor, Lilith, Blandine, Jordi as a naked man accompanied by a lion, a bull and an eagle. Jean appeared and motioned to a saint on the sidelines of the crowd; the cameras followed the Archangels into the Seraphim Council, now on Earth, here in Notre Dame, for the last seven hundred years. At the podium stood Yves, and behind him spun Gabriel, in its celestial form. "In a few hours," Yves began, "we will open the Abyss. Lucifer and the other damned will be free again. But it will not be as before. They will not hide, anymore than we are now hidden. They -will- tempt, with both desire and fear. For the thousand years, Heaven has tried to prepare you all for that. Now, each incarnate soul will choose for itself. But the choice between good and evil cannot be made in the abstract. There must be something concrete. Once, it was as simple as a piece of fruit. Now... "Now it will be a galaxy. You have recently developed hyperdrive and sent out probes and expeditions. You have found life-bearing worlds. You are about to find intelligence on some of them. Very new intelligence. Very, -very- new. The diabolicals are about to find them, too. And you will find other things. Just as you are not the last world to be graced with intelligence, you were not the first. Just as you have been caught up in celestial matters, so have they. The universe is very old. Lucifer is not the first or last rebel. When the Abyss is opened, there will be alliances. And rivalries. More of the latter, we hope. And there are allies for you, too, among the celestials of the other stars. If you choose Heaven. In either case, you will, of course, end up with the company you deserve. Eventually, New Jerusalem will descend, but only when this, the fruition of the children of Earth, is complete. Now Gabriel will speak." Yves vanished, reappearing among the other Archangels. The sparkling wheel that was Gabriel collapsed in on itself, became a shining figure, like a bronze statue wrathed in fire, and began to utter the word of the Lord. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - This would resemble an IN compaign crossed with space opera. It differs from IN in that celestials are out in the open. Humans are rattling about the galaxy, with celestials and ethereals and others at their sides. They find pre-sapient races they might want to Uplift a la David Brin. They find Eden-analogs and numerous, strange variants. They find Elder Races that have gone through what they're going through and beyond. They find new celestial hierarchies clustered around the new planets. They find very ODD celestial hierarchies that do NOT cluster around planets. They DON'T find anyone on their own technical level. So, from the viewpoint of most non-Elder aliens, humans are a kind of celestial. And, for each alien world, the Archangels and Demon Princes may have different strictures about contact. Earl Wajenberg ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #420 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.