From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Wed Oct 22 14:29:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA25665 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:29:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA01092 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:05:52 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:05:52 -0500 Message-Id: <199710221905.OAA01092@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #421 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, October 22 1997 Volume 01 : Number 421 In this digest: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Re: IN>Dark Victory Backwards (Long) Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Return of Uriel? Re: IN> [FFULF] New Demonette: Tizzy! Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Andrealphus Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Re: IN> Revelations Cycle Revealed! Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? IN> [DARK VICTORY] Lilith, Archangel of Freedom Re: IN> digests moved Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation Re: IN>Dark Victory Backwards (Long) Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #412 Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Andrealphus Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes Re: IN> IN: Dice questions. Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #412 IN> Re: Bright Victory? Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:11:22 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? > > > >What if, instead of Dark Victory, there'd been Bright Victory? > > > Actually, you -can't- really have a play setting in Bright Victory. In a > > Why not? If nothing else, consider the Sandman take; Lucifer > That would work. I don't have a copy of the Kindly Ones, though, because > I'm lame, although a dedicated Neil Gaiman addict. :) We're still missing a couple, though we pick them up when we can... {Incidentally, have you seen "V for Vendetta"?} > I dunno. Go whole hog and do 1984. I could probably dig up a whole list > of Utopia novels which would work as a source of background. Heh...y'know, I DO have some preliminary work (from before IN, even) on "Salem Complex"...(Trust no one. Keep your blunderbuss handy.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 10:02:30 PDT From: "Chris Jackson" Subject: Re: IN>Dark Victory Backwards (Long) - ---------- > Chris Jackson wrote: > > > After the War, the Earth is . . . nice. Stable. A Utopia, even. And > everyone is happy. Everyone. > > Jeez, what I wrote is too similar to this setting... but, Chris, you've > forgotten the Greater Celestial Powers, dear... The kinda conflict you propose > is similar to mine, but using ye olde Archangels we know - I think when Heaven > opens, the AAs will h > ave more things to worry about... But Uriel may sure be just one of these > things... > > Andre, D.P. > Well, it wasn't a full write-up by any means. Imagine the greater Celestials to be kind of similar to the DVB (wee! An acronym) version of God, i.e. basically non-sentient, if they haven't been eaten already. (Mmmmm. Greater Celestial Powers.) > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:16:45 -0400 From: "Chuck Ryan" Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Return of Uriel? Anthony Baxter wrote: > a quick thought - in the Dark Victory universe, would God let Uriel > return? Assuming Uriel still exists in the upper reaches of Heaven, > now would be a good time to let him return - if only to help rescue > the Malakim from the labs. quicker thought what if he wasn't let out but broke out instead it's not as if nobody has ever defied gof before CHUCK ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:20:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> [FFULF] New Demonette: Tizzy! > The book isn't God (Umm, to the best of my > knowledge). Even if the book doesn't say so explicitly, you can > understand by the description of Djinn that not only they don't care, > they like not caring! Even if it doesn't appear in the book, choirs > are choirs, and a Djinn that cares, phaa! And if you look even more closely at the book, Djinn do care, they just don't want to admit it. For further instruction, see Helga Patackie on Nickelodeon's "Hey Arnold!". > Best Regards, > A. Nachmias Oops da Ogre, what you say /= what you feel mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:48:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Ozmodeus Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Andrealphus According to Andre Ribeiro: > > SeanMike Whipkey (smw4s@virginia.edu) is: > > The Grinning Impudite of Andrealphus, Captain of Diabolical Delight > > Hmmm...so I got a servitor in the list... and a Captain, by all means... > Good. unfortunately he's a balseraph. He's just really, REALLY deluding himself. But then again, what's a balseraph for? Dan Ozdowski - -- The Devil's Cabana Boy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:55:34 -0600 (MDT) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? > >> >What if, instead of Dark Victory, there'd been Bright Victory? > >> Actually, you -can't- really have a play setting in Bright Victory. In a > > Why not? If nothing else, consider the Sandman take; Lucifer > You miss the point here, though. Not really. > Bright victory means that rebellion from the Almighty is repudiated. As Karakash pointed out, a BV universe can reasonably mirror the DV universe, in that there's no reason it has to be either absolute OR what anyone expected... > Dissent is one thing, dissonance will be entirely another, and Angels will > no longer have the buffer zone of being Outcast. And as Emily pointed out, that's how things were in the beginning, and the Fall still happened then just fine... > All of this, of course, assumes Free Will remains in play, which I > personally doubt. And, as I get to make a point of my own, there's no particular reason to believe Free Will would go away either...God gave it to people for, presumably, a reason. He's apparently flooded the world once for a reset, and didn't take it away THEN either... > I don't find Bright Victory fascinating- after all, it's already been > written in the last two chapters of Revelation. Dandy; you're certainly entitled to not find it fascinating. May I suggest, then, that you employ the simple tactic of not reading the clearly marked thread? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:07:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Revelations Cycle Revealed! > Hello, > > > > While the setting is cool, the rules, ummmmmmmm..... bite? Is that > > > a good word? How about, "It makes KULT playable." > > And what, pray tell, have you got against KULT? > > I played KULT once, 4 eight hours sessions with a > good GM, after that the group just decided to respectfully decline. > In other words, they kicked KULT's red ass out of heaven's door. > This is one of the reasons I run In Nomine instead of KULT. The other reasons are: I gross myself out, and it's hard to design are really GOOD plot. The best plots for that game, and for any game, is when things hit close to home. With KULT, you go after Family and Loved Ones with something like a serial killer, and that does the trick. (And this way people don't feel so SMALL.) With In Nomine, you go after friends, comrades, and people they care about. Same thing, different time of day. :) Emily K. Dresner, M.S.Eng. Applications Programmer III and Balseraph of the Game Desktop Applications Team - Medical Center Information Technology Current Quote: "Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Prank a Malakite, and you're on your own..." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:01:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? > > >> You miss the point here, though. > > > >No, I think he just has a differing opinion, which he's entirely entitled > >to. > > And I have mine, which I will defend like a rabid akapi. }:-{D Which is fine, and even understandable. But I have read well over 20 posts of "you're wrong" or "you missed the point" or "that can never happen." After a while I start running around screaming, tearing out my hair, and lighting up Spiffy of the Throwing Flames, my pet imp. It's an interesting universe, but please, don't post it to a public list if you don't want people to make comments, or disagree, or try to tweak, or point out differing ways of doing things, because people like myself DO. I thought that was the entire point of the list in the first place. But if we're supposed to take it in a nice seran wrapped package, then put it on a web page and post a URL. We'll read it. No, we can't see what's up inside your head. That's what communication is for. But let people have their views without squishing them. > > >The universe can be cyclic, and certainly may be, depending on how one > >views things. If the person creating the universe likes the Sandman view > >of things, then go to it. There are certainly no absolutely when it comes > >to one's imagination. > > The Sandman variant, for what little I know of Sandman, would't be apocalyptic. You need to read The Kindly Ones, then, clearly. [Free Will Crap] > Yep, from when the Fall actually occurred down to what a Heavenly utopia > would entail. > > And if God's rule -isn't- Utopia, what possible hope does any of His > creation have, even in rebellion? Lucifer rebelled not because God's rule > was unjust, but because Lucifer thought he saw a better way... he just lost > track of that Better Way in his fight to take over. Quite a bit, actually. God is an open book. A creative mind can do anything he wants with Him. And hell, it's a GM's right. Let's think about Genesis for a bit. Adam and Eve were cast from the Garden for eating from the Tree of Knowledge to learn the difference between Good and Evil. Once they learned Wisdom, they were no longer ignorant of God's ways and could not live in grace. Even if you take the Raziel story into it, where he tried to give Adam knowledge, it was taken away. I can see a case for a new beginning, with an ignorant Mankind, Created by a God who wants pawns. God's Utopia was one where man lived in foolish bliss without contemplation. Is this a "Good" utopia, even for the Angels? I dunno, I don't live in ignorant bliss. Lucifer REBELLED because God had elevated the status of the humans equal to those of the Celestials, and maybe because they did learn knowledge. That's just straight up religion. Utopias are not always pretty, happy things. They usually suck. That's why they're so facinating. And if you ask me, there's plenty of story there. George Orwell certainly didn't have a problem. > >> I don't find Bright Victory fascinating- after all, it's already been > >> written in the last two chapters of Revelation. > > > >Yeah, well, we'll be sure to keep that in mind, when people are posting > >scenarios. > > > >Do not taunt Happy Fun Balseraph. > > > I'll keep an eye on it, in passing... but from now on I'm keepin' my big yap > shut. The late-last-night post sums up all I got to say, in a mostly > flame-proof package. }:-{D > > *yawn* now gotta get my mouth shut on BV an' get back to DV... > > Redneck Good. I'm glad you find other people's options also worthy enough to keep an eye on. I'm not picking a fight. Or maybe I am. I'm spin doctoring again. But I do think that, if one is going to post a universe and tell what is right and wrong, one should at least read what other people have to say. On the other hand, I can flame anyone, flameproof or not. :) - - Em, the Balseraph, who has apparently posted no lies today. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:15:36 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Lilith, Archangel of Freedom The world is what we all make of it. Lilith is a tortured soul, with nobody doing the torturing except herself. As Armageddeon broke loose acros the Earth, Lilith rejoiced. Her careful work in the governments of the world had paid off, setting each against itself as much as against others, every President, Prime Minister, Generalissimo and Emperor exercising their Freedom on the others. Then the looting began... and didn't stop. Then the mass murders began... and didn't stop. Then Saminga walked the earth, sucking the Forces from all in his path... ... and Lilith knew it wasn't supposed to work like this. Doomsday was here, and now everyone should be free... and as she watched, the dead went straight to slavery in Hell, or were destroyed outright... the living struggled to stay alive and escape the new warlords and bandits. Within her, the demonic Word she had accepted from Lucifer screamed out in betrayal, even as Lilith's tears fell to the ground. This was not freedom, this was destruction, plain and simple. In life, freedom was dying for most humans, and in death, Hell awaited... In her despair, Lilith cried out to Heaven, begging the Almighty to return, not for herself, but to bring back the last hope for humanity. That path was closed, though, not just to her but to everyone. If there was going to be a freedom, Lilith would have to bring it about herself. Today Lilith walks to and fro in the earth, and up and down in it, her guilt and grief settling heavier than any Geas on her Celestial shoulders. Every day makes her more and more dissonant to her darker nature, as she takes on responsibility and obligation willingly, without reward, the demonic aspect of her Word slowly burning away into... who knows? Lilith knows what is happening, and has tried to deny it. She's blamed Lucifer for selling her down the river; that lasted a day and a half. Blaming Saminga didn't last an hour. Now, to others, she rationalizes her actions- she cleaned the heavy radiation away because she needs humanity to fight Saminga, right? She heals the sick because dead humans can't fight, right? And even if it does seem selfless, all it is is an investment in the future... right? Nobody's fooled, least of all Lilith. Her beauty remains, but the incredible weariness of seven thousand years of guilt laid on at one shot is obvious to anyone who sees her. Lucifer has apoligized, and purges her Discord when it manifests, but the Dissonance builds up faster than he could hope to clear it away. Sooner or later, Lilith knows, she will break down and repent... and what happens to her if she Redeems? Will she be bound again to human man, the powerless helpmate she was before? Will she lose her agelessness and crumble to the dust? These fears haunt Lilith, prodding her back away from grace, though in her hopes she sees herself as a bright goddess of Liberty, purged of guilt, forgiven and glorified by the Almighty. Caught between guilt and hope, responsibility and obligation, Lilith walks the upward stair, dragging her feet as she struggles to break away, her Word and her newfound conscience driving her on to an uncertain future... (entries following changed only as they differ from the IN rulebook entries) DISSONANCE In addition to existing Dissonance requirements, it is Dissonant while in Lilith's service to unfairly or arbitrarily deprive another being of its freedom. This includes killing, except in the case of Demons. It does not include extracting a Geas from someone. RELATIONS Lilith is very repentant of her works, and in the time since she left Hell she's had very little time or energy to create new Lilim. Andre is a reminder to her of what she was, and though she understands him and sometimes supports him in council, for the most part she wants nothing to do with him. Lucifer has taken a particular interest in her welfare, for which she is intensely grateful. Yves, on the other hand, keeps silent about her struggle, earning Lilith's resentment... but whether his stoic silence is to allow Lilith to reach her Destiny, or because she -has- no higher Destiny, no one knows but Yves... ALLIED: Lucifer ASSOCIATED: Eli HOSTILE: Yves, Andrealphus CHANCE OF INVOCATION: 4 Lilith's newfound conscience goads her into commitment- some, especially Lucifer, would say -overcommitment.- She still has a lot to do, and she can't be everywhere at once, but already her name is becoming a rumor among humans. "Call on me," she has said to many, and now many are calling, a low background rumble at the moment but possibly soon a tidal wave of calls for her, pleas for help which rip her from two directions at once, working on her guilt while adding still more Dissonance to her demonic nature. Lilith gains Dissonance each time she commits herself to a responsibility without some negotiated exchange. If you call on her and offer a Geas, she will be relieved to hear, if she hears. Given a chance to help in exchange for 'indefinite services later', she will jump to the task, filing the Geas away for a day when it will come in handy and a task proper and just for the Geased. Lilith still holds Geases on all the Demon Princes still in Hell, as well as many of the Lilim still there. She will not call these promises in lightly; they are in the nature of a Last Resort, a weapon to be used when the time is right or the cause justifies the means. And remember... ANYONE, even Saminga himself, may summon Lilith. It's just tougher for Hell to speak to her now... and Hell knows that, Renegade or not, Lilith could cause a lot of grief if they tried to just haul her back in... INVOCATION MODIFIERS - -10 for anyone serving Hell or imprisoned there - -6 for anyone but a human, Lilim or Superior - -3 for a human + (Geas level +2) if you promise her a favor, Geasing yourself while summoning her +1 a pair of broken handcuffs +2 a piece of a dismantled Electric Chair +3 a caged creature set free +4 Ground Zero at one of the fourteen nuclear blasts from the Apocalypse (in many cases this will involve a boat) +5 A human family rescued from a bandit gang +6 The remains of one of Saminga's monstrosities (*NOTE: Lilith is the subject of the first adventure seed I'm working on. The three I currently have in mind are all Superior-related, and are titled, 'Rebirth of Liberty,' 'Reap the Whirlwind,' and 'Heavenly Laughter.') Redneck (let the protests fly) Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:43:34 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> digests moved At 12:04 AM -0500 10/22/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >>(Hey, RG/Kris (which should I use?)! > >Kris, or Redneck. If you'll answer to the latter, that's probably what I'll remember. :-J > You can probably catch up >>with any lost IN stuff there. And if you need any archives, well, >>you know who to ask, right?) >> >Sure. The problem is, I don't know exactly -what- I lost, only when I didn't >get it. Ah. Well, at least the time-period is there? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:08:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes At 12:21 AM -0500 10/22/97, PERRY wrote: >The real McCoy wrote: > >>She sees what must be done, to save humanity, to save Freedom, to >>save herself. The first thing is to save the humans, and if there >>is pain and weariness on that road, so be it. She has lived her >>entire life for free will, and this is what she chooses to do with >>that free will. >> >>And then the high point is empty but for the wind, sweeping away >>the footprints of the Woman that God created. > >Call me really, really tired and a sucker for tear-jerkers, but I like >that a lot. Thank you! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:54:26 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation At 1:03 AM -0500 10/22/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >Poor David is being kept alive very, very carefully by Vapula. He's already >dissected him down to the minimum Forces for a sentient Celestial soul. Now >he's testing David the way he -wanted- to test Jean... (Hm. Relievers are 3 Forces, so Vaps could go lower. Of course, there's not much leeway there for accidents...) >Vapula is discovering Psychology, or at least the torture aspects, the same >ways he discovered Chemistry. Trial and Error. And he's a Habbie, oh joy. >Redneck (is David really better off?) (Well, he's alive... Where there's life, there's hope... Hm. Hmmmm... Somebody will be needing the Word of Hope eventually.) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:58:01 -0200 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: Re: IN>Dark Victory Backwards (Long) Emily Dresner wrote: > > > Soon, all will be as it was. There will be only God. God and Yves, alone forever, as it was before Michael came between them. > > > > Hmmm...So, Yves and God were like...a couple? Oh my...! Tell *me* about going kinky!! > You're sick. I like this. "I know." ~ Gary Oldman, 'The Fifth Element" Andre, D.P. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:37:17 -0400 From: John Dye Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #412 Donald G Bixler wrote: > > > Uriel didn't go after Angels, or even many deviant humans. Uriel was quite > > happy to let beings loyal to the Almighty live in peace. > > I'm of the opinion that that was just because he hadn't gotten around to > it yet. > > > Dominic doesn't believe anyone but himself is loyal to God. They are all > > sinners. They must all be destroyed. Etc. etc. etc. > > Right. I just suspect that if Uriel kept going, he would end up the > same way. > > Redneck Just as a question, is it, like, officially cool to Dominic-bash on this list? Or am I the only one to read "it is dissonent to inflict a punish ment greater then the crime, or stand by while the innocent are punished unfairly" and the rite reads "spend two hours defending an innocent in court". Yeah, he's a tight ass. So what? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:58:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Andrealphus > > > SeanMike Whipkey (smw4s@virginia.edu) is: > > > The Grinning Impudite of Andrealphus, Captain of Diabolical Delight > > > > Hmmm...so I got a servitor in the list... and a Captain, by all means... > > Good. > > unfortunately he's a balseraph. He's just really, REALLY > deluding himself. But then again, what's a balseraph for? > Um, hanging out, having a good time. All sorts of stuff. *I* hear Balseraphs are pretty cool people to have around, really. :) Emily K. Dresner, M.S.Eng. Applications Programmer III and Balseraph of the Game Desktop Applications Team - Medical Center Information Technology Current Quote: "Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Prank a Malakite, and you're on your own..." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:29:55 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? At 9:07 AM -0500 10/22/97, Dorothy Bixler wrote: >On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> At 10:48 PM -0500 10/21/97, PERRY M. LLOYD wrote: >> >> >What if, instead of Dark Victory, there'd been Bright Victory? >> >> If you write it, I will put it on the INC... >> >Actually, Donald and I have been tring to find time to finish off the >ideas we've been tossing back and forth about what would happen if the >Pagan Gods won over both Heaven and Hell (wait until they've weakened each >other and take control again). Stuff like what happens when the Pagan Gods >of Death team up together to take out Saminga... Gray Victory? I'll put that on the INC too. I'm an equal-opportunity Archiver. (And if people want *other* Dark Victory varients, I'll put up pages for *those*....) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:23:40 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? At 4:16 AM -0500 10/22/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: [...] >In a BV universe, there must be someplace for the rebels to go and >organize... but where? God has reclaimed his Creation, right? But do we >-know- all of Creation? Do we know God's Will? Is there a corner of Heaven, >a place in the Far Marches, or a Purgatory between Heaven and Hell where >angels and demons opposing the orthodoxy of Heaven can go? > >Remember that, unlike in Dark Victory, a Bright Victory WILL end in total >Heavenly rule over Earth, if not the total destruction and recreation of >Earth. Rebels CANNOT hide there. This presumes that it really *is* a total "Bright Victory." What if God's Plan *doesn't* include whupping all the demons and drawing all souls back into Itself? (At a mimimum, you might get some AA gritting his teeth and quietly unlocking cell doors... "This wasn't supposed to happen yet. This is unfinished. Go away. Live.") Or the option that God really is just a hopped up Ethereal God, and *not* omnipotent in that way -- he *needs* an executioner to disperse the Forces so he can suck them up. He claims he's got all corners of Hell under thumb, and he claims that he's got the Earth in hand, but does he really? Heck, the Far Marches were claimed by no-one -- move fast, and keep moving... Basically, you have to have been playing In Nomine backwards from the start. The demons are not nice, but they are the revolutionaries, not terrorist rebels. Therefore... [...] >Redneck (it's not healthy to dream of a Seraph of Light inviting an Impudite >of Lust on a date) Yeah, but is he working on seducing Lilith to the Bright side as he seduced her to the Dark side? {His wings about her. "I lied to you, you know. Tempted you, promised things I knew you would never quite be able to grasp. Distorted the conflict so you would think we were the better choice." "I know. I knew it then, but I wanted more to believe you." Tears are crystal, reflecting the rainbow of Light in patterns on her cheeks. "But all dreams end, especially now. There's nothing left but tatters." "Give them up. Clinging to them is only clinging to the past, to the mistakes we all made." Silence, and she closes her eyes. "It's so hard. I can't do it." "Not yet." But he folds her close, and sings of hope and forgiveness.} This is all your fault... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:04:43 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes At 12:48 AM -0500 10/22/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >>Lilith stands on a high point, wind whipping around her. She has been >>standing there since the first sparks fell from the sky, and before, >>she was singing, "Risk the fire in the midnight sky/And the rain of >>Hell when the ashes fly/Just so long as the generals die!/Bring >>it down, bring it down!/Bring it down, bring it down!" [...] >>Her fists clench, slowly rising as her jaw tightens. "No," she >>whispers as she sees what should have been her greatest victory, >>turned to glassy ash. >> >>And she screams her rejection of this Truth to the empty skies, to >>the winds, to the butchered Earth and beyond, to the wreckage of >>Heaven itself. "*NO*! THIS SHALL NOT BE! IT WILL NOT END LIKE THIS!" >> >>She sees what must be done, to save humanity, to save Freedom, to >>save herself. The first thing is to save the humans, and if there >>is pain and weariness on that road, so be it. She has lived her >>entire life for free will, and this is what she chooses to do with >>that free will. >> >>And then the high point is empty but for the wind, sweeping away >>the footprints of the Woman that God created. >> >So close, so close. > >But you leave out one important facet in your scene. > >Lilith's promotion of selfish Freedom in the world played a *very* large >part in the destruction below, as generals, warlords, soldiers and looters >'did what they wanted.' Yes, well -- it's easy to forget little things like that when you view the world through the lens of your Word. And besides -- others were free to stop them. You can't make the omlette of Freedom without breaking things... But it was supposed to sort itself out into stable anarchy, not turn into Saminga's buffet. (Yeah, I believe that she has ideals. The Word she chose was Freedom, not Irresponsibility or Anarchy. She promoted those aspects over others, but who knows what she thought she was doing. Reality is harsh when it finally breaks through.) >Now, she sees her freedom without responsibility or respect turning on >itself, the actions of the 'free actors' not promoting her Word, but Death's. Yep. Had hoped to have the turning point there, her seeing all she had dreamed of, turned to what she never wanted... >She can shout defiance at Saminga, she can blame Lucifer for his lies (but >not for long), but in the end she comes back to herself... she was Free to >choose, and she made her choice, and her choice has helped strip Freedom >from humanity. And so she will choose again, to mend what she helped break... "You are what you choose to be. Choose again, and become." Finally "growing up" and taking responsibility. >This is why she is so close to Redeeming... more soon. ( Oh-yeah, I've been playing a Renegade who would swap in a heartbeat -- if she could remain Free.... Free to choose who she served, free to serve more than one... It's why she went Renegade, seeing that Fate led only to slavery; if love of Freedom carried her this far, is it fair to abandon it?) But hey, I hacked the story out in a half-hour or less. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:47:54 -0400 From: John Dye Subject: Re: IN> IN: Dice questions. A. Nachmias wrote: > > Hello, > > I'm beginning a new In-Nomine campaign and I was > pondering about the repeating diceless/diceful question every GM in > almost every RPG deals with. > > Basically, the book gives details about everything you > might want to use the dice with. I don't plan to use the dice on > every single event, that's silly, but some more significant events, > like ascending to heaven, singing songs, etc. are meant to be > diceful. > > Yes, when I think of it, In-Nomine can very easily be > played diceless, hell, I don't see what reason is for an Angel or a > Demon to fail a song. The way I see songs, they are the expressions > of the angel himself, he's reciting his own essence - How can someone > actually *fail*? Of course, having a song at level 1 doesn't mean the > celestial failed, only the effect was so meek, noone noticed it. > > Divine/Infernal intervention? You probably ask > without stating it. Umm, I can picture a scene: The angel tries to > open a door and gets a 111. Holy christ! God appears as a waiter, > you can hear heaven's choirs sing loudly, as he open the door for > you! Amazing? I think not. My point being: Divine/Infernal > intervention should not be completely random and limited to certain > significant scenes as the GM sees fit to prevent from ridiculous > scenes where God/Lucifer helps/damages opening a miserable door, or > other silly scenes. > > > Dice are bad. Well, mostly bad. I admit some games > can't be played without the help of randomness, dice. Still, dice, as > I see it, takes some of the role-playing - When you waste time on > throwing dice, calculating check-digits, damage points, > characteristic points lost and so on, you actually waste time where > you could have developed your character. On the other hand, some play > more for the battles and less for the role-playing (not munchkins, > those play only for the battles, and for the +19,000 two handed > sword, of course. ;-)). Yes. Until a player and a GM go toe to toe over what should be possible, and is not possible. Without the dice, you may as well be playing "Calvinball", and that usually ends in a fight. Only the most disciplined of gamers can do it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:47:33 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #412 At 1:37 PM -0400 10/22/97, John Dye wrote: >Donald G Bixler wrote: >>Redneck wrote: [...] >>> Dominic doesn't believe anyone but himself is loyal to God. They are all >>> sinners. They must all be destroyed. Etc. etc. etc. >> >> Right. I just suspect that if Uriel kept going, he would end up the >> same way. > >Just as a question, is it, like, officially cool to Dominic-bash on this >list? It comes and goes. Ignore it. (Besides, this is the Dark Dommie, broken by the victory of Hell, so utterly betrayed by Truth that he seeks the refuge of Lies, crafting a "truth" that will vindicate him, will make everything right again, pure, as it was in the Beginning.) >Or am I the only one to read "it is dissonent to inflict a punish >ment greater then the crime, or stand by while the innocent are punished >unfairly" and the rite reads "spend two hours defending an innocent in >court". > >Yeah, he's a tight ass. So what? Sometimes his Servitors have different definitions of crimes than others. (Hey, nobody likes Internal Security...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:30:10 -0400 From: David Paul Subject: IN> Re: Bright Victory? > > (3) WHOSE SIDE IS GOD REALLY ON? > > In BV, God is on God's side. The premise I put forward is that > God has a plan that is manifestly evil that even some of his most > ardent supporters (the Archangels) are repulsed. Lucifer was the > first to discover the plan and voluntarily took on, by definition, > the hardest job in the universe-- overthrowing God. Well, he failed. > One possible plan is that God doesn't intend to bring > heaven to Earth. Perhaps he's decided that Creation is flawed and > he wants to wipe it all clean... forever. There is no new creation, > just eternal emptiness. To do this properly, though, he needs > command of every free-willed being in the universe. There's a third possibility... maype God's not part of the whole thing. Suppose Uriel came down on his own initiative. Some have begun to suspect that Uriel isn't doing God's work -- and God isn't telling, because He's still up in the Higher Heavens. He isn't taking an active hand in all this -- Uriel is running the show on his own. - -- David Paul janus@ioa.com - ----------------------------------------------------- *DO NOT TAUNT HAPPY FUN BAAL!* Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your home. -- (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:43:20 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? > >> >> >> You miss the point here, though. >> > >> >No, I think he just has a differing opinion, which he's entirely entitled >> >to. >> >> And I have mine, which I will defend like a rabid akapi. }:-{D > >Which is fine, and even understandable. But I have read well over 20 >posts of "you're wrong" or "you missed the point" or "that can never >happen." After a while I start running around screaming, tearing out my >hair, and lighting up Spiffy of the Throwing Flames, my pet imp. Ah, the Balseraph exaggerates. (Or else I *REALLY* have too much time on my hands. }:-{D ) 20 posts? Hmmm... Pointy-Haired Boss: Put my name on your patent application. Dilbert: Why? You said my project would never work, you cut my funding, and you mocked me in front of the vice-president. PHB: Devil's advocate! D: You said I was ugly, too. The above quote is only peripherally related to this post, but I think it makes my real attitude here clear. >It's an interesting universe, but please, don't post it to a public list >if you don't want people to make comments, or disagree, or try to >tweak, or point out differing ways of doing things, because people like >myself DO. I thought that was the entire point of the list in the first >place. But if we're supposed to take it in a nice seran wrapped package, >then put it on a web page and post a URL. We'll read it. I post it here because it's much faster for me to get it out this way. Anyway, a Bright Victory universe wouldn't really have anything to do with DV. Part of why I've been so vehement about the Bright Victory side is as justification, I suppose, for my not having done it -first.- (As opposed to doing Dark Victory first.) >No, we can't see what's up inside your head. That's what communication is >for. But let people have their views without squishing them. The thing is, I'm still waiting to see some fully developed ideas on Bright Victory. So far, the vague concepts I've seen for the set either fall completely flat to me or involve the 'IN Backwards' concept... and none of them go beyond 'Wouldn't it be nice if...' Of the lot, I like Chris' 'jealous Yves' concept best, and it *HORRIFIES* me. > >Utopias are not always pretty, happy things. They usually suck. That's >why they're so facinating. And if you ask me, there's plenty of story >there. George Orwell certainly didn't have a problem. Orwell wrote of dystopias, not utopias. I don't believe in Utopia for the simple reason that humanity is incompetent to keep itself from spoiling it. I don't believe in dystopias because humanity -also- is not competent to keep itself from spoiling -them,- too. DV falls in the middle. >> I'll keep an eye on it, in passing... but from now on I'm keepin' my big yap >> shut. The late-last-night post sums up all I got to say, in a mostly >> flame-proof package. }:-{D >Good. I'm glad you find other people's options also worthy enough to keep >an eye on. Of course. Listening to other peoples' opinions makes me re-examine my own more closely. >I'm not picking a fight. Or maybe I am. I'm spin doctoring again. But I >do think that, if one is going to post a universe and tell what is right >and wrong, one should at least read what other people have to say. Well, when (if) people actually post about DV, I will. But Bright Victory as has been explained here is not a backwards version of DV, it is the polar opposite of DV... and really, now that I've had time to think about it, nothing I need to concern myself over save in the casual-interest fashion. >On the other hand, I can flame anyone, flameproof or not. :) > You keep tellin' yourself that, Happy Fun Balseraph... };-{D Redneck (who has been feeling less like a Cherubim of Eli and more like a Malakim of Janus... ack, the taste that leaves in my mouth }:-{P) Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #421 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.