From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Thu Oct 23 21:31:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA28944 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:31:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id VAA16360 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:23:04 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:23:04 -0500 Message-Id: <199710240223.VAA16360@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #429 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, October 23 1997 Volume 01 : Number 429 In this digest: where do etherals come from? (was: Re: IN> B5 Victory) Re: Escaping dissonance (Was: Re: IN> Re: Redeeming Shedim: it can be done) Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation IN> IN5 [Fluff] Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? IN> [DARK VICTORY] Places - the Northeast States of America Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing Re: Escaping dissonance (Was: Re: IN> Re: Redeeming Shedim: it c Re: Escaping dissonance (Was: Re: IN> Re: Redeeming Shedim: it can be done) Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? Re: Gold Digger (Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic) Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Return of Uriel? Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Places - the Northeast States of America Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing Re: Escaping dissonance (Was: Re: IN> Re: Redeeming Shedim: it c Re: IN> B5 Victory Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing Re: Escaping dissonance (Was: Re: IN> Re: Redeeming Shedim: it can be done) Re: IN> IN5 [Fluff] Re: IN> B5 Victory ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:21:58 -0700 (PDT) From: lugaid@seanet.com Subject: where do etherals come from? (was: Re: IN> B5 Victory) On 1997-10-23 in_nomine-l@lists.io.com said to lugaid@seanet.com }And what about ethereals? Don't they come about due to man's }thoughts and fears? Would new ones form out of the reaction to the }Big Battle (tm)? my take on things is that Ethereals exist as minor dream-elements first, with few Forces and little Essence... but, sometimes, one inhabits the dreams of a dreamer with power... and sometimes, that dreamer relates the story of that Ethereal to others, and it comes to their dreams... with time, it might gain enough Essence from these dreamers to grab some more Forces, allowing it to inhabit more dreams with power, and so on... artists are the shamans of dream, building the power of the Ethereals until they become gods... somewhere, there is an Ethereal who has taken on the form of Marilyn Monroe, another who has become Groucho Marx, and one more who is Santa Claus... actually, this interpretation is more useful in GURPS Voodoo: The Shadow War (and is part of the way that my World of Shadows campaign is shaping up), but fits in with the Ethereal gods, as well... it is likely how i will be treating it for the IN game my players want me to run (when i can finally get them together :/ )... Slan agus Beannachtai, Lugaid MacRobert 666k : Retirement plan of the Beast. Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:57:26 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: Escaping dissonance (Was: Re: IN> Re: Redeeming Shedim: it can be done) On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:36:28 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >He gets dissonance because his attuned died. The *how* of it is not >important. Yeah, bad example on my part. >>What if a Mercurian plants a landmine? Does he get dissonance when it kills >>a human, however much later that is? > >HADES, HEAVEN AND FAR MARCHES **YES**! Heck, he might get >it when he planted the live landmine, or at least be hearing the >Jaws theme about it... Even if he sets it for a demon? Or the Mercurian is in a gun fight with demons. One of his shots goes wild and an indeterminant time later (seconds? minutes?) kills a human. Or suppose the Mercurian is intrumental in getting a communications satellite in orbit, perhaps foiling a demonic plot to stop it. Years later, it fails and does an uncontrolled reentry killing ten humans. Of course, these examples are off the cuff and unlikely to really come up in a campaign, but the position I'm advocating is that a celestial can do something seemingly innocent, or even good, and later reap dissonance from it. He doesn't have Danger Sense--or am I wrong and he does? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:57:21 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:02:31 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >One wonders what happened to the Menunim and Pachadim. Taking orders at Denny's and grazing the African plains? ;) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:27:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Martin Leslie Leuschen Subject: IN> IN5 [Fluff] Note: B5 spoilers below, for any who care. >Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:50:05 -0500 (CDT) >From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) >Subject: Re: IN> B5 Victory > >> >>>Redneck (Superpowerful aliens v. superpowerful aliens, humans in the >>middle, humans win, short version, Oops) >> >> Well, actually, that short silly snippet could explain a lot... >>With the >>big powerful guys busy wacking on each other, humans tend to get >>overlooked >>and ignored... And we're a rather creative and resourceful bunch. Once >>we >>know about Celestials, don't you think we could foster their taking each >>other on-- weakening both sides... and come up with some handy tools to >>take the survivors down and maybe even out? > >Well, the thing is, applying it to Armageddeon, it's like this. > >Angels walk the earth, destroying cities where demons have worked. > >Demons walke the earth, destroying cities where angels have worked. > >A human manages to talk to God and let Him know what's going on. > >God says, 'Come along, children, you've played here long enough.' > >Angels and Demons say, 'Aw, DAAAD!' > >God says, 'Come along, I said.' > >Angels and demons vanish and neither they nor God is ever heard from >again. I'm impressed. You actually made it sound boring. Here's my edits/clarifications/interpretations. Lots of interesting forshadowing of Armageddon. Our heroes are trained as soldiers of God by a sympaththic, if incomprehensible, celestial, Koshiel. Their enemies and some friends are seduced by Demonic Side. Something happenses in Hell, and the War begins to escalate. Demons stalk the world, with many corpreal allies. This starts out subtlely, with the demons covertly aiding their allies, but actual demon assaults start to become more and more common. The angels aren't doing much, holed up in Heaven, although our heroes are getting a little artifact-type help. Our (primary) Hero convices Koshiel to stike out at the demons to give others hope. This is done, but Koshiel is soul-killed in retaliation by a demonic hit squad. Lots of interesting battles and politics. One of our Heroes goes to the *Major* demonic Tether, despite prophesies from Koshiel that if he does this he will die. The demons try to win him over, but he denies them, and suicidally detonates a nuke he smuggled in with an artifact, taking out the Tether and doing significant damage to Hell.> The Host sees this as an opportunity to end the War. Armageddon begins, *becasue the Angels decide it's time.* The hard liner archangels are in power in Heaven. Koshiel is replaced by a servant of Judgement, who uses the same role, but has a different attitude. The Host walk the earth, destroying any area tainted by demonic influence. The Demonic Host walks the earth, destroying anything angelicly oriented. The Humans are no match for the Powers being unleashed by the two Hosts. The destruction is horrific - areas cleansed by either side are devoid of life. Humans on your side end up in your Celestial Realm, the others are Force-Stripped. Neither side actually confronts the other, preferring to take out their power base (Essence from aligned humans) first. Our Hero, who died nuking the Demonic tether, ascends to upper Heaven and meets only God (Most of the others supposedly in upper Heaven have gone Elsewhere.). God is very Old. God is very Wise. God is very Tired. God tests this soul and finds it worthy. Our hero is Ressurected, and returns with God (appearing to be some strange old man) to his friends, who are trying to figure out what to do. Our Heros cleverly manipulate the Demonic Host to arrive at a major city at the same time as the Heavenly Host. While this is being prepared, God and our Heros cantact the Pagan Gods and the remaining few AAs in Upper Heaven. Koshiel II can't be allowed to witness the preparations, so he is attacked, and still only killed because Koshiel I had hidden some of his forces in our Hero, like a Kyrio, that somewho survived his soul-death, but these die ensuring Koshiel II does not escape. The two Hosts meet at the City, and clash. Our heroes have set some traps, but even Nukes can only annoy the Hosts. Many of the forces of Humanity attack both Hosts. Again they are only an annoyance. The Pagan gods and Ancient AAs join in, but still the Celestial Hosts are mcuh greater. Two Heroes are taken by the Celestials to find out why they are doing this - The Ressurected one and His Love. The Angels berate the Ressurected one, he is their Soldier and he must obey. The Demons berate his Love - he is their pawn and nothing she does can stop them. It is futile to try. God, quietly, makes both sessions visible to all the humans on Earth. These humans renounce Heaven and Hell. They refuse to be the battlefield apon which the war between Heaven and Hell is waged. God says, 'Come along, children, you've played here long enough. Let us go Beyond, like the others.' Angels and Demons consider. They've refused this offer before. (Such as at the time of Christ (Mohammed), the last time this happened, although it didn't go so far then. At least one previous battle involved massive flooding, although the one around Christ involved/resulted in the Fall of Rome and the Dark Ages.) This time, the humans know about the War. All of them. They are not co-operating like the nice little chess pieces they're suposed to be. God says, 'Come along, I said.' Angels and Demons ask - 'Will you come with us? We don't want to be alone.' God says, 'I will.' Our Heros are left to sort out their other problems in the midst of a ravaged Earth. ******************** With apologies to JMS - I didn't really justify his story, which is much greater thing than the poor and incomplete interpretation above. (This is a summary and interpreation of merely *one* of the major arcs of B5.) ********************* Clearly, this works more a a humanocentric adventure, than as a setting. Running it straight wouldn't be much fun - but setting it in IN and adding a few of your own twists might make it a lot of fun for Kosh(B5 fans). However, I wasn't going to let Redneck's boring sounding conversion stand unchallenged. Not on B5 night, which I now depart to enjoy... Regards,, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:36:28 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Brief Superiors Summary and Notes At 12:57 PM 10/20/97 -0500, you wrote: >>Redneck Gaijin wrote: >> >>> GABRIEL - Weakened but still nominally an Archangel >> > >Full writeup on request. > Please consider this a request. Gabriel, Eli and Yves are my favorite AAs. Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:10:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? > Eris goddess/AA of discord? Goddess of Discord, Chaos, and All Things Funky. The only reason she'd be an Archangel would be to get into the Seraphim Council long enough to do some fruit throwing. > Best Regards, > A. Nachmias Oops da Ogre, and Gulick is her messenger/pet roach mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:08:30 -0400 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Places - the Northeast States of America >>>ROBERT JOHNSTON alias ROSHTANDARIEL, Balseraph Baron of Factions, Demon of Republican Democracy<<< At his power level, Roshtandariel would more likely be a Duke, rather than a mere Baron. Barons, as currently presented in In Nomine, are usually powerful but still on the scale of PCs (i.e. a bunch of PCs could gang up on one and have a fair chance of taking him down). Dukes are closer to Princes in power-- they aren't Superiors, but they can still squish the average celestial with little effort. - -David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:13:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing > for anyone who hasn't read these, run, don't walk, to your nearest used > bookstore and find a copy (or perhaps Borders or Barnes & Noble might > have copies sitting in their copious warehouses, just waiting for a > special order, such as yours)... James Blish was an amazing writer, and > these two were very possibly his best works (save only the short story > _More Light_, but as i've said before, i'm a part-time Hastur/King in > Yellow cultist ;)... Well, if they are better than his "Cities in Flight" stories, I'm there. > Slan agus Beannachtai, > Lugaid MacRobert Oops da Ogre, ObIN: Jean wouldn't want spindizzies being let out, either mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:16:48 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing At 5:36 PM -0500 10/23/97, Donald G Bixler wrote: >> You'd think he could have resonated that they weren't being honest... > >I think that it would take a very high check digit to tell when someone >told the truth, but left things out. It's not telling a falsehood... Only a CD of 4 or higher, and we're still talking Superior status. >Oops da Ogre, seraphim can tell when you lie, not edit- or has that changed? They can tell why someone chose to tell the truth/lie (CD 3), and at 4 you get what the speaker believes the truth to be. At 5, you know if he knows the Truth, and at 6 you get the full unabridged Truth in surround sound stereo. Of course, if you stick to things where the Truth *is* what you say ("I won't answer that."), you are usually pretty safe. Never let Seraphim touch you. That boosts the CD. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:03:46 +0100 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: Escaping dissonance (Was: Re: IN> Re: Redeeming Shedim: it c Walt Mazur wrote: [snip] > the basic point > I was trying to make is that some actions are ambiguous, almost quantum > mechanical. An action might cause a disonance condition or it might not; > you don't know until an arbitrary time after the action. Fair enough: the Jaws theme becomes uncertain, wavers, (possibly) turns serial, atonal, or some weird variant. [snip] > If you make the potential dissonance into the equivalent of Danger Sense, > then you've given every celestial nearly the equivalent of Michael Malakim > Choir Attunement. Hey: it's not nearly as all-encompassing as that. Michael's Malakim know whenever something nasty is about to happen; other Celestials merely know whenever they're off the hook for Dissonance purposes, or whether it's still likely to hit them at any time. As Walt mentioned, sometimes you Just Don't Know, so the Dissonance warning theme becomes less than useful; either way, even if you know whether you're going to get into trouble real soon now because you didn't laugh at that poor sap in the street, it's not going to help you in the slightest to evade that killing blow from the resident Happy Fun Malakite. The Dissonance Jaws Theme is, granted, related to Michael's Malakim's Danger Sense, but it's a much reduced and less effective version. Sam - -- There are *my* opinions, dammit, and let no-one say otherwise. Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/cgi/illuminati Furious activity is no substitute for understanding. - H H Williams ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:24:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: Escaping dissonance (Was: Re: IN> Re: Redeeming Shedim: it can be done) At 10:57 PM +0000 10/23/97, Walt Mazur wrote: >On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:36:28 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy > wrote: > >>He gets dissonance because his attuned died. The *how* of it is not >>important. > >Yeah, bad example on my part. > >>>What if a Mercurian plants a landmine? Does he get dissonance when it kills >>>a human, however much later that is? >> >>HADES, HEAVEN AND FAR MARCHES **YES**! Heck, he might get >>it when he planted the live landmine, or at least be hearing the >>Jaws theme about it... > >Even if he sets it for a demon? Hm. If it blows up a human, then yes. Shouldn'ta been careless. If he'd swung a punch at someone he thought was a demon, and discovered he'd just hit a Shedite's ride, he'd get the dissonance. Of course, setting it would be skirting the edge of his nature unless he'd been *utterly* sure the one to step on it would be a demon, and maybe even dangerous even then. They're pacifists, acter all. >Or the Mercurian is in a gun fight with demons. One of his shots goes wild >and an indeterminant time later (seconds? minutes?) kills a human. He gets dissonance for hurting the human in the first place. >Or suppose the Mercurian is intrumental in getting a communications >satellite in orbit, perhaps foiling a demonic plot to stop it. Years later, >it fails and does an uncontrolled reentry killing ten humans. Now *that* is getting far separated. >Of course, these examples are off the cuff and unlikely to really come up >in a campaign, but the position I'm advocating is that a celestial can do >something seemingly innocent, or even good, and later reap dissonance from >it. He doesn't have Danger Sense--or am I wrong and he does? If he does something that is obviously skirting the boundaries of his nature (a Cherub dragging his attuned around into car-crashes, a Mercurian setting a deathtrap, a Kyrio using his hosts to fight with, etc.), then he'll feel the "I maybe shouldn't be doing this" quiver. If he does something that accidentally, in a non-forseen series of events, violates his nature (and the GM rules that it's direct enough cause and event), he suddenly gets hit with dissonance, I think. (So if a Servitor of Judgment is convinced that someone is guilty and hands him over to the cops -- he'll reap dissonance right there if the guy was framed.) It's very much a GM call in the gray areas. But they don't get danger sense except for knowing that they're doing something that could very well violate their natures. It's the knowing that they can't ignore. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:57:52 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing >You seem to have postulated Saminga and others gaining Forces by slaying, >so I was wondering if you had some mechanism in mind. Perhaps something >like a roll under Celestial Forces allowing a random Force to be grabbed at >the moment of soul-death? Saminga literally strips Forces from souls, as he does in Hell (check the IN rulebook entry on Abaddon). His ability is, AFAIK, unique in that he can retain those Forces for his own use. PCs can pretty much forget harvesting Forces from other beings. >>The person holding the Granite Throne will have power to hand out Words on >>their own. > >Ok, but with Saminga's neglect of demonic politics, would a secret >Balseraph Council be possible? DPs can grant Forces by themselves, and they >might find it advantageous to have some Demon Princelings to help fight >Saminga--i.e., to stand between them and Saminga. :) Lucifer was powerful enough by himself to do it. The person on the Throne is powerful enough. And -maybe- a large gathering of very powerful Princes could do it... but it's almost impossible to get the requisite number of Princes to -agree- on it. So, odds are, no new Words for a while. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:07:08 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation >At 12:44 PM -0500 10/23/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > >(Yes, her Tower and Blandine's fell down. Do you really want to >chance that they aren't off together somewhere, having said, >"A plague on both their houses. Remember that little dreamscape >back in the Far Marches? The one with the chocolate and sextoys?" >and reassigning their Words will get one or both of them back >going *ahem*?) > I'd originally planned on B&B to slay each other in the classic 'tragic lover' schtick, but if you can come up with a cool adventure seed playing them as having 'gone native' in the Etherial Realm... go for it. }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:05:16 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing >At 5:52 PM -0500 10/22/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >>[...] His guards were more than happy to tell Dominic of the >>outcome of the Great Battle, telling the truth but not the whole truth... >>they told of Michael and Laurence's Last Stand, but not of the hundreds of >>angels and two Princes who had died to pull them down. > >You'd think he could have resonated that they weren't being honest... >Still. > > >> SHEDIM - Shedim of Dominic are assigned to lead souls not to >>corruption, but to destructions. A Shedim may add the level of a target's >>strongest single Discord > >(Except humans don't have Discord in the soul-staining sense.... Or >can these Shedim possess *celestial* vessels? Eeek! ) > Ouch, good point. Humans don't usually get dissonant or discordant. How about: A Shedim may add its Celestial Forces... ... etc. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:14:47 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Bright Victory? >(Sorry, Kris -- I'm an equal oppotunity archivist.... I'll put in >that you wouldn't have it happen in your canon, but if others like >it, then they get to play it however they want. ) > True, although it would be so much more convenient if the ideas were compatible with mine. }:-{D Redneck (-passion- would work, actually, but it wasn't brought up before) Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:16:36 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: Gold Digger (Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic) >At 1:05 PM -0500 10/23/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > >>Redneck (Another Gold Digger fan among the Secret Masters? I wonder if >>there's someone I could tempt into swapping GD or Athena subscriptions for a >>sub to Pyramid up there... ^_-) > >(Hmmmm.... *HMMMMMM*.... Though we do want to support our local >comic shop... You'd have to tempt SJ or one of the other bigger >Superiors. Though it could tempt... Has a new Athena come out >recently?) > #11 is the latest issue I know of- I have copies on reserve through AM Works. Redneck (it's good to own a mail-order comics company- until you gotta go to the USPS) Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:24:01 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] General Observation >One wonders what happened to the Menunim and Pachadim. Since I don't have the Marches, I will make the following guess. Those Menunim and Pachadim which didn't kill each other or weren't killed by other Angels, other Demons, or Etherials, are hiding. They don't trust Hell, which is intent on killing the dreamers, and thereby the dream. The Menunim don't trust Lucifer's Redemption, and so avoid the Lighthouse. The Pachadim don't trust Lucifer -because- of his Redemption, and so avoid the Lighthouse. Nominally, Hell controls the Marches, with Kronos, Malphas and Haagenti each having a small garrison there. In practical terms, though, the Marches are a no-man's land now more than ever, -ESPECIALLY- with the Pagan gods regaining their power and starting to reach out from the Far Marches... Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:12:59 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Return of Uriel? >At 1:15 PM -0500 10/23/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: >Litheroy was the AA of Revelations. He was concerned with Truth >and discovery. His "Associated" listing is Yves, Dominic, Michael, >and Laurence, so he's got War-party ties, but those are mostly >because one is Destiny, two others are Seraphim (like himself) >and the third is an honor-loon. >He's hostile to Jean (hiding tech!) and Janus (who never goes near >him). > I see. Neither hawk nor dove, just incredibly obsessed. Oogh, not an easy one at all... >>If he was less combative, he's in Hell being 'rewarded' for his unremitting >>honesty. > >Or broken out with the others? Doesn't look it. >Alaemon, on the other hand, probably skipped the battle as well and >is deep in hiding somewhere -- hm. Ah, yes, Alaemon and Litheroy both >vanished deep into Alaemon's Principality and have not emerged as of >yet. And since Alaemon was a minor Prince anyway, nobody's gone looking. > >How's that? > Nice, but not sufficient- it would leave Litheroy 'unaccounted for.' A better version is that Litheroy charged Hell to assault Alaemon, and fell into a carefully crafted trap. This leaves Alaemon with Litheroy as his captive- a bound, Force-stripped Seraph gagged so he can't speak... and bombarded with a million tape recorded questions. Twelve tapes at once. Question after question after question. Over and over and over, and Litheroy cannot answer. How's -that?- Redneck (Hell is cruel, deal with it) Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:44:14 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Places - the Northeast States of America >At 3:20 AM -0500 10/23/97, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > >New "Live Free or Die" Hampshire and Maine might be doing stuff on >their own, of course. NH is a weird place. For Yankees, they're >pretty compatible with my Texas Rose upbringing. Of course, >I grew up in Austin, so I'm atypical already. The back woods of both are full of people who are trying to stick it out on their own. Between Johnston and other demons and monsters, though, they're having it very hard... >(Let a bunch of Taxachussets Bleeding Heart Liberals take over >government? You gotta be kidding... O;> Johnston is (in his Role) from Rhode Island. All the other branches of the 'provisional US government' are puppets- he's running the entire show himself. > > Hey, I'm living up here now, I'm allowed to make comments >from the peanut gallery. > My heartfelt condolences. }:-{D >BTW, Malphas ought to get around to smiting this fellow eventually -- >Factions is supposed to *break* things down (as ordered), not go around >on world-conquest kicks... > He might... he might not. He -should,- since this is a very powerful servitor working for his own ends rather than Malphas'... but he might want to see if Johnston's war brings about more, or fewer, Factions. After all, this is New England. }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:58:15 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:57:52 -0500 (CDT), redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) wrote: >>Ok, but with Saminga's neglect of demonic politics, would a secret >>Balseraph Council be possible? DPs can grant Forces by themselves, and they >>might find it advantageous to have some Demon Princelings to help fight >>Saminga--i.e., to stand between them and Saminga. :) ... >And -maybe- a large gathering of very powerful Princes could do it... but >it's almost impossible to get the requisite number of Princes to -agree- on it. All DP's nervous about Saminga raise your hands... :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:48:53 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: Escaping dissonance (Was: Re: IN> Re: Redeeming Shedim: it c On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:03:46 +0100, Sam Kington wrote: >Walt Mazur wrote: >[snip] >> the basic point >> I was trying to make is that some actions are ambiguous, almost quantum >> mechanical. An action might cause a disonance condition or it might not; >> you don't know until an arbitrary time after the action. > >Fair enough: the Jaws theme becomes uncertain, wavers, (possibly) turns >serial, atonal, or some weird variant. I don't see anything in IN that says you get warned when you're in a situation where you *might* become dissonant. You either take dissonance or not. Otherwise, every Mercurian attacking what he thought was a demon would get warned away if he was wrong. That would be an instant demon detector, and detecting demons is not supposed to be that easy. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:57:59 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> B5 Victory [AA Beth] > I would assume they wind up staring at their Hearts, whereever those > Hearts may be. Or, for the Heartless, they wind up in Limbo. > (_Heaven & Hell_, p. 79.) Hmmm - beg to differ, Beth. Destruction of the Vessel, p111: "When a spirit's corporeal vessel is destroyed, it returns to the ethereal realm, at whatever place it considers home or otherwise safe." Last I knew, spirits lack Hearts... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven. - Milton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:53:04 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> [DARK VICTORY] Dominic, Demon Prince of Cleansing >>Saminga doesn't care about other people's words, so once he takes over, no >>more Worded demons until he's deposed, -if- he is. > >So how did Dommie get his Word-swap, then? (Asked the Demon Princess >of Nitpicking.) > Oooh, good nit, too. Um, okay, how's this? Saminga heard about this new demon, saw he was promoting Saminga's Word, and approved of his choice of Word, making it official. (Dominic terrorizing a wrecked city, and Saminga comes along.) SAMINGA: Watcha doin'? DOMINIC: KILL! KILL THEM ALL! SCOURGE THE WICKED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, BURN, BURN, BURN WITH GOD'S WRATH!! SAMINGA: Cool. What's your name? DOMINIC: Know you that I am Dominic, Archangel of Cleansing, the puissant and terrible Sword of God! SAMINGA: So you are. Keep up the good work. - --- Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:48:46 GMT From: w_mazur@primenet.com (Walt Mazur) Subject: Re: Escaping dissonance (Was: Re: IN> Re: Redeeming Shedim: it can be done) On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:24:47 -0400, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >>Even if he sets it for a demon? > >Hm. If it blows up a human, then yes. Shouldn'ta been careless. If >he'd swung a punch at someone he thought was a demon, and discovered >he'd just hit a Shedite's ride, he'd get the dissonance. > >Of course, setting it would be skirting the edge of his nature unless >he'd been *utterly* sure the one to step on it would be a demon, and >maybe even dangerous even then. They're pacifists, acter all. Right, but that's something so innate, the GM shouldn't have to point it out to the player. >>Or suppose the Mercurian is intrumental in getting a communications >>satellite in orbit, perhaps foiling a demonic plot to stop it. Years later, >>it fails and does an uncontrolled reentry killing ten humans. > >Now *that* is getting far separated. Yep. >>Of course, these examples are off the cuff and unlikely to really come up >>in a campaign, but the position I'm advocating is that a celestial can do >>something seemingly innocent, or even good, and later reap dissonance from >>it. He doesn't have Danger Sense--or am I wrong and he does? > >If he does something that is obviously skirting the boundaries of his >nature (a Cherub dragging his attuned around into car-crashes, a >Mercurian setting a deathtrap, a Kyrio using his hosts to fight with, >etc.), then he'll feel the "I maybe shouldn't be doing this" quiver. But aren't these obvious enough that the GM shouldn't need to warn the player about it. After all, Kyrios can go into combat as long as they're positive they can Heal their hosts if needed. >If he does something that accidentally, in a non-forseen series of >events, violates his nature (and the GM rules that it's direct enough >cause and event), he suddenly gets hit with dissonance, I think. (So >if a Servitor of Judgment is convinced that someone is guilty and >hands him over to the cops -- he'll reap dissonance right there if >the guy was framed.) Or maybe when the situation become irrecoverable. While he can still get the person back from the cops or hire a lawyer to prove him innocent, should he get dissonance? I tend to think not, until the recovery gets to the point of being unlikely. >It's very much a GM call in the gray areas. But they don't get danger >sense except for knowing that they're doing something that could very >well violate their natures. It's the knowing that they can't ignore. Which, mostly, the players should know. The GM should only need to give them a clue when they're missing the significance of what they're doing and it's definitely against their nature, not just possibly against their nature. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:06:52 -0500 (CDT) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> IN5 [Fluff] > >Note: B5 spoilers below, for any who care. > >I'm impressed. You actually made it sound boring. Here's my >edits/clarifications/interpretations. I was trying to get the plot over as briefly, as bare-bones, as possible, so someone with 0 B5 knowledge could catch on. Your version is much better in quality, but wasn't what I was tryiing to accomplish. 10 for 10 for style, but 2 for short-and-sweet. }:-{D Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:57:59 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> B5 Victory > Any Angel who had a Heart in Heaven (and Laurence, Michael and David > destroyed their Servitors' Hearts to avoid this) will now find their > heart stored in a very heavily guarded dungeon deep in Hades. > Lucifer didn't have time to go for these during his rushed rescue > attempts. Angels who hold their own Hearts, or who had none in > Heaven at the time of the battle, will appear in Lucifer's > Lighthouse or, if they served Gabriel, the Cathederal of Fire. Canon for somebody without a heart is a Trauma measured in weeks, and the chance of loosing a Force. You didn't make it clear whether Yve's Hearts were taken (you said something about the Library being unburnable and sealed - could it even be breached, or not? > I've avoided Etherials thus far in DV except to say that a lot of > the Old Gods are gonna get a revival out of Armageddeon. Anybody > with 'The Marches' wanna field this angle? Good lord, I don't know. Many of the Ethereals probably fled Beleth's Marches to the Far Marches - who knows what their doing? Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven. - Milton ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #429 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.