From owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Wed Nov 12 21:15:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA18784 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:15:17 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id UAA19927 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:19:02 -0600 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:19:02 -0600 Message-Id: <199711130219.UAA19927@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #469 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@LISTS.IO.COM Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@LISTS.IO.COM Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Wednesday, November 12 1997 Volume 01 : Number 469 In this digest: Re: IN> The honorable Rulius Advocatus, Esq. Re: IN> Vessels and possession... Re: IN> Kyrio Telegraph Re: IN> Vessels and possession... Re: IN> Balsy question Re: IN> Dice? Re: IN> GM's Guide Re: IN> Wording Re: IN> Anachronistic Words IN> {Dark Victory} Tauniel, Angel of Guerilla Warfare Re: IN> Claudine, Angel of Forgiveness Re: IN> Anton S. LaVey Re: IN> Anton S. LaVey IN> Claudine -- a correction Re: IN> www.What The $&#*?!.com Re: IN> {Dark Victory} Tauniel, Angel of Guerilla Warfare Re: IN> Wording Re: IN> Wording IN>Malakim-In-Black? Re: IN> Couple of Questions... Re: IN> The God Spot Re: IN> Wording IN> Another take on demons (A tad long) Re: IN> Kyrio Telegraph Re: IN> Balsy question Re: IN> IN Character Sheet .BMP Re: IN> Wording Re: IN> Anachronistic Words Re: IN> Dice? IN> IN : Adventure : AIRPLANE!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:25:35 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The honorable Rulius Advocatus, Esq. Raoul Duke wrote: > > There AREN'T many OTE mechanics, after all. > True, but I dunno... it just feels different, to me anyway, if most > of it goes to chrome. Like the superfluous dice, just to make a > d666... what's the point then? The point is to check for Interventions, same as in regular IN. Or you can do something else. E.g. roll however many dice it takes, and if they all come up 1s or all 6s, say there's an Intervention (and, I expect, ignore the possibility of Intervention for one- and two-die rolls). > I probably won't be running an IN game anytime > soon [...] but if I did it would be for the Disturbance/d666 > mechanics as meaningful parts of a game, and not just tacked-on bits. > I don't know if I'm really communicating well or even have much of a > point here... I guess I don't understand what you mean by "tacked on" and "chrome." I also don't see how making up OTE-like mechanics need affect the Disturbance aspect. Actually, it strikes me that the complexity of IN lies not in the dicing, but in the lengthy lists of distinctions and atunements for bands, choirs, and superiors. But this is inescapable, so far as I can see. Any game with a fantasy element has to have the equivalent of long spell lists, since (it *being* fantasy) there is no general, real-world agreement about the limits and organization of magic or its equivalents. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:06:15 -0700 (MST) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Vessels and possession... > In short, I need to put an angel in long term residence in a vampire's > body. Actual control of the body is not necessary as it makes a more > romantic story element if the vampire is repntant and now fighting for > good. The Bound Discord is probably your best Canon bet...nothing else really has the duration for it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:38:04 -0500 (EST) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio Telegraph In a message dated 11/10/97 9:07:46 AM, you wrote: >The Kyrio telegraph is a cute idea. As for the problem of talking >with a pigeon -- how about using a crow instead? Crows, ravens, >magpies, and most other members of the Corvidae can talk. Starlings, >too, I think. And of course the parrot family, though carrying >a parakeet around with your party might be conspicuous. > >Earl > I suddenly had this image from Diane Duane's _Support_Your_Local_Wizard_, of Macchu Piccu, the prophetic Myna. Who "Peaches," as he is known, turns out to be is one of the great points of the book. Mark (The Lone Power is Lucifer, of course...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:44:09 -0500 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Vessels and possession... On Nov 11, 3:04pm, bruce dykes wrote: > Subject: IN> Vessels and possession... > In working on rev0.2 of the Slayer Project, I find I need an answer about > possession. If I were to use a Kyriotate, I'd have to gut IN canon (which > I'm willing to do, but not if I can come up with a more elegant and rules > friendly answer). > > In short, I need to put an angel in long term residence in a vampire's > body. Actual control of the body is not necessary as it makes a more > romantic story element if the vampire is repntant and now fighting for > good. > > Any thoughts? A variant on the 'bound' discord would do the trick. This would be an amusing discord because _both_ the kyrio and the vampire would share it! ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:39:48 -0500 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Balsy question > >That's exactly how I've been running it, but I'm hoping Karakash can set > >my mind at ease on how close to canon I'm coming.... > > > > > --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor > GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ In case anyone was wondering, anything Elizabeth says is about as official as it gets. The Un/holy triumvirate (Steve, Beth and myself) all generate canon stuff but the general power ranking is about in that order: Beth can overrule me (though she couches them as 'suggestions' and makes me see the error of my ways) and Steve can overrule either of us. Mind you, ALL of us have been forced to rethink matters when people have politely, and correctly, disagreed with us. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:40:59 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Knop Subject: Re: IN> Dice? > I ran a PC on a one-on-one last night for three hours. I did bring my > infamous green and white Shadowrun Cube, which has served me well > dice-wise for almost seven years. I never even got to the point of > pulling off the rubber band on the case, let alone rolling dice. When I'm GM'ing, I roll dice almost incessantly. An Odious Personal Habit; it's just a way of fidgeting. (I always fidget one way or the other, it seems.) It has the added benefit of making the players very nervous. (Every so often I look at them and make a noncommital grunt after rolling them. It is, of course, all meaningless.) - -Rob === Rob Knop === rknop@crl.com ==== http://www.wco.com/~rknop === Amiga PGP information at http://www.wco.com/~rknop/amiga_pgp Visit the Dramatic Exchange at http://www.dramex.org/ ================================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:29:44 -0500 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> GM's Guide On Nov 11, 12:01pm, Jesse Rooney wrote: > Subject: IN> GM's Guide > >Attention SJG: Player's guides are great, but I don't think I'm alone in > >wanting a GM's guide that gives guidelines for Wording, Archangel creation, > >and Rite, Song and Attunement creation... > > Heck folks at SJG, I'll volunteer to write the book! There is a line of people drooling over parts of the book already (I'm drooling too...) ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:51:01 -0500 From: johnk@ascc01.ascc.lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Wording > I would like to see AA/DP design rules for In Nomine. IN would almost > certainly break with such characters as PC's however. > > I would seriously like to see a "play a AA/DP of your own design" type game, > but at that level it should be a different game. Preferably a board game... > > No collectable card games please! too many of those and not enough good ones > as it is. Just something that comes in a box and you have everything you'll > need. (Actually, Knightmare Chess was A-OK, even though it's only half board > game.) Would you settle for a probably-never-to-be-published non-CCG that I'm working on? I'm trying to capture the feel of In Nomine with a much-reduced set of rules (like it has maybe five different mechanics). Each player takes the role of one AA or DP and manipulate the doings of angels/demons/humans/etc. in order to complete their own ineffable goals. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:29:16 -0700 (MST) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Anachronistic Words > Words can be changed, yes, but generally nobody *does* -- the Word > becomes so much a part of one, that few celestials could conceive What about `promotion'? I mean, if someone hopes to be the Angel of Weather, which would be a pretty big responsibility, do they have to somehow prove themselves THAT capable while AVOIDING being assigned any other Words on the way, until they can actually get Weather? I tend to see it as kind of in between...people somewhat OFTEN move to related words. (The Angel of Gentle Rains taking over the recently vacated spot as Angel of Cloud Cover, say, but it would be very rare for the Angel of Gentle Rains to even think about becoming the Angel of Digital Watches.) > Renegades and Outcasts keep Words. Fallen or Redeemed loses it. What about Remnants? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:37:36 -0500 (EST) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: IN> {Dark Victory} Tauniel, Angel of Guerilla Warfare Tauniel Angel of Guerilla Warfare, Independant Master of the Armies of God Corporeal Forces-6 Strength 12 Agility 12 Etherial Forces -5 Intelligence 10 Precision 10 Celestial Forces -6 Will 12 Perception 12 Vessels: All destroyed during the battle at Har Meggido Songs: Thunder/6, Light/6/6/6, Shields 6/6/6, Entropy 3/4/3 Numinous Corpus-Wings/5 (but no vessels...) Toungues0/0/3 Skills: Dodge/5, Knowledge (Tactics)/10, Large Weapon/6, Move Silently/10, Ranged Weapon/10, Small Weapons/4, Survival/10, Tactics/10, Throwing/10, Tracking/10 Attunements: Malakite of Laurence, Malakite of Michael, Howl, Seraph of Laurence, The Blade Blessing of Laurence, Hunt, Malakite of David Tauniel was having a great life. Her Word of Guerilla Warfare had been granted a few centuries before, along with a transfer from Michael's to Laurence's service. Her word was gaining servitors, and some of those servitors were gaining words. She had even found a like-minded servitor of David, Jariel, the Angel of Commandoes, whose attention was more on training than on tactics, and fallen in love. They were even considering raising a baby angel. Then it all hit the fan. Armaggedon started, and many of the Forces of Heaven were trapped at Har Meggido when word came that Heaven itself was under attack. Laurence's last command to her and her troops was, "Break out and use your skills to the utmost." Then he and many of his best shock troops went celestial, hoping to surprise the counterattack. Most of the servants of Guerilla Warfare fell there in the valley outside Jerusalem, and then later, in the desperate defense of Heaven itself, suffered soul-death. Jariel was captured by a contingent of Calabim of the War, and Tauniel and her (and the remainder of his) troops fought a desperate battle to free him. This is where her forces dropped from 25 to 17. The survivors fell back into the Glade and the Groves, trying to find any survivors, hiding out as best they could, striking at the weaker bands of Demons when they had a chance. Finally, Jariel suggested a retreat into the hidden depths of the Caverns of Stone, to carry out a campaign of attrition from there. Tauniel has heard only rumors of the Redemption of Lucifer, and doesn't believe them. If she knew the Preserver faction exsisted, she would probably cooperate with them. Unfortunately, she believes that she, Jariel, and their combined servitors are the only organized group of angels outside the higher Heavens. If it weren't for the fact that she hasn't seen any losses since entering the caverns, she'd despair, curse God, and die. * * * * Any comments? Mark(No, I'm not sure why the Angel of Guerilla Warfare is female/feminine...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:33:09 -0600 (CST) From: Dorothy Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Claudine, Angel of Forgiveness On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Austin G. Loomis wrote: > [The following writeup is based on a _Magna Veritas_ Archangel created > by Erick-Noel "Baron Samedi" Bouchard Claudine, Angel of Forgiveness, Mercurian Ambassador of Flowers I like her a lot. This is just what I need for when I have to much testosterone running in my group (no that's not a slight at guys- I'm prone to combat heavy games sometimes, too- even moreso than the guts in my groups) Dotti Michelle, Macomb's very own Kitchen Witch and practioner of Cookie-manacy *Dorothy Michelle Bixler * mudmh10@ecom.ecn.bgu.edu* "Gidget, have you been laying with the Horned One again?" -MST3K's Mike from "The Thing the Couldn't Die" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:59:13 -0600 (CST) From: Dorothy Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Anton S. LaVey On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > Anybody care to speculate on the causes/effects of this WRT the > Church of Satan writeup done a couple months ago? The original > author would probably be best, but... > Well, if you're going with an Angel-based conspiracy theory, the Malakim-in-Black got him. Otherwise I would say that he's talking on a new role, that of his 4 year old son, Xerxes -whose full name, the poor thing, is Satan Xerxes Karnacky (I think that's spelled right) LaVey. I am not making that up :) I'm not sure what out-of-game this will mean for the Church of Satan or it's member's, but as for right now LaVey's "long time companion" (read common-law wife) Blanche is running the organization. Aunt Dotti, who always wanted to name her first son Lucifer *Dorothy Michelle Bixler * mudmh10@ecom.ecn.bgu.edu* "Gidget, have you been laying with the Horned One again?" -MST3K's Mike from "The Thing the Couldn't Die" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:42:39 -0600 (CST) From: Dorothy Bixler Subject: Re: IN> Anton S. LaVey On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Keith Phemister wrote: > > > > > >his death certificate has been changed to October 31 and that his daughter > put a curse on >him > > Yep that sounds like rumors all right. Though, your daughter putting a > curse on you, either before or after your death. Sort of defines > "dysfunctional" doesn't it? That's not the half of it when it comes to the LaVey family life ;) > > >both of which have been stated as false by the Church of Satan on-line rep > > It's not the rumors that caused me to raise an eyebrow, it's the concept of > the "Church of Satan" having an on-line rep. I guess customer service > would be lousy. (>net surfing schmuck: umm. excuse me, but my computer (snip) LOL Sounds about right. She posts on alt.satanism fairly frequently much to everyones amusement. It seems the job qualifications included an bad attitude and questionable mental stability. *Dorothy Michelle Bixler * mudmh10@ecom.ecn.bgu.edu* "Gidget, have you been laying with the Horned One again?" -MST3K's Mike from "The Thing the Couldn't Die" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:54:56 -0600 (CST) From: "Austin G. Loomis" Subject: IN> Claudine -- a correction Ladies and gentlemen, Claudine Allen has just asked me to correct her stated conversation skills, as she doesn't want it believed she has a skill in Lying. So replace the stated Emote, Fast-Talk and Lying skills with the following: Emote/1, Fast-Talk/2, Suffer Fools Gladly (Will)/3 How's that, Claudine? Am I forgiven? Austin G. "What am I saying? This is *Claudine* I'm talking to!" Loomis, MiSTie #84029 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 02:15:44 +0100 From: "cd skogsberg" Subject: Re: IN> www.What The $&#*?!.com dwood@skipjack.bluecrab.org wrote: > I got bored this evening and started typing random names into the > go-to block of my browser. The scary thing is that all of the > following CONNECTED ME TO ACTUAL SITES... > > www.kronos.com > www.asmodeus.com > www.baal.com > www.lucifer.com [Snip] www.satanic.org is another: the Satanic Sysadmins, with such gems as how to increase your uptime, how to get more beer, and their little spat with the Christian Coalition. > Just in case you find anything synchronicitous about this... Like what? he asked, blinking innocently. cd Calabite of Furfur. - -- "And it has come to pass that the Lord of the Woods, being ... Seven and nine, down the onyx steps ... (tri)butes to Him in the Gulf, Aza- thoth, He of Whom Thou hast taught us marv(els ..." - H. P. Lovecraft, _The Whisperer in Darkness_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:22:09 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> {Dark Victory} Tauniel, Angel of Guerilla Warfare >Tauniel >Angel of Guerilla Warfare, Independant One nit- the proper term here would be 'Orphaned (choir) of the Sword.' Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | Do not taunt Happy Fun Belial. http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | * * * c/o White Lightning Productions | "I love the sweet smell of http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | humiliation in the morning!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Kobal reaffirms himself http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:01:35 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Wording > > Would you settle for a probably-never-to-be-published non-CCG > that I'm working on? I'm trying to capture the feel of In Nomine > with a much-reduced set of rules (like it has maybe five different > mechanics). Each player takes the role of one AA or DP and manipulate > the doings of angels/demons/humans/etc. in order to complete their own > ineffable goals. > I've instantly decided that if you publish a CCG, I'm going to feel an overwhelming need to call out the Dogs of the Game, and drag you back kicking and screaming to Hell from whence you came. :) "Okay, boys. His crimes are many against Humanity, and Creation in general. Sick 'em." :P Ugh. Just what the world needs. More collectible card games. Kind of up there with more holes in the ozone layer, more congregations of the Klu Klux Klan, and more lima beans. Things we must accept, but not be real happy about. Emily K. Dresner, M.S.Eng. Applications Programmer III and Balseraph of the Game Desktop Applications Team - Medical Center Information Technology Current Quote: How can you say, "We are wise and the law of the LORD is with us," when, in fact, the false pens of the scribes has made it into a lie? - Jeremiah 8:8 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:32:26 -0600 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Wording Emily Dresner wrote: > > > > > Would you settle for a probably-never-to-be-published non-CCG > > that I'm working on? I'm trying to capture the feel of In Nomine > > with a much-reduced set of rules (like it has maybe five different > > mechanics). Each player takes the role of one AA or DP and manipulate > > the doings of angels/demons/humans/etc. in order to complete their own > > ineffable goals. > > > > I've instantly decided that if you publish a CCG, I'm going to feel an > overwhelming need to call out the Dogs of the Game, and drag you back > kicking and screaming to Hell from whence you came. :) > > "Okay, boys. His crimes are many against Humanity, and Creation in > general. Sick 'em." :P [snip] That's OK, John, I get along _very_ well with dogs, and I will run interference for you. Personally, I could care less about playing the game, but I WANT TO SEE THE ART WORK!!!!!!!!! ahem... excuse me, I got kinda' carried away there. I apologize to the list for screaming, but it was for the sake of making a point. I am enthused at the idea of all those angels and Heaven on cards that I can carry around in my hand. What are the chances of getting Smif to do some of the artwork? tom "always watching out for enjoyable new highly portable art" timberlake ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:47:01 -0600 From: tom timberlake Subject: IN>Malakim-In-Black? Just a quick question for the list: Is anyone, including Malakim In Black, going to be in Oklahoma City for SoonerCon 13, November 21,22, & 23, other than the local Seneschal of IN [myself, unless another is already in town that I don't know about]? thanks for a moment out of your schedules, tom timberlake, sometimes role of James the Stone Malakim. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:33:45 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Couple of Questions... At 7:47 AM +1100 11/12/97, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: >Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> >2. Both of Zadkiel's Servitor Attunement's refer to the check digit. >> >What's the target number? The Angel's resonance? I thought Attunements >> >didn't require a d666 roll. >> >> They don't, usually -- just roll the check digit. > > Hmm... seems clumsy. I'd be happier if it was based off the angel's >Forces. Oh well. Instead of a check digit? Interesting notion. I'll remember it for future reference. Thanks. >> We have been playing that celestials have f/d. Their Fate is to be >> demonic, and their destiny to be angelic. > > The box in IN (p. 67) says "Every mortal has both a fate and a destiny". >From that, I assumed celestials didn't. You can rule either way, I'd say. We figured that the reading *would* be different for them, though. (It's a GM call.) >> > Both those attunements are cheap and easy to use, >> >> They cost 10 points at character creation (and 10 points and/or >> your Superior's permission after), and cost Essence -- which a >> celestial will likely sense being used if you're close enough. > > "Cheap and Easy" in the sense that they only cost 1 Essence, and require >no dice roll. There is that, yes... >> Yes, they have an edge. So do Servitors of the Game, who can >> recognize various Bands... Seen the list of ways to spot celestials >> yet? It's on the INC... I'll have to add FF/DD to the list, though. >> > > Seen it, should double-check it now that I'm _finally_ running an IN >adventure. > Follow-up question - what reading would you get for f/d off a servitor of >Asmodeus using Humanity? Most of the usual methods won't reveal them, but a >f/d check might... Hmmmmmm......... Possibly it would turn into a varient: Destiny, to be selfless enough to be worthy of Heaven. Fate, to be selfish enough to be drawn to Hell. Actually, that might be a better one to apply for demons & angels in general...? And whole bunches of humans, too. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:50:47 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> The God Spot At 05:34 PM 11/12/97 +1100, you wrote: >Dear List > >has anyone else seen the reports that some researchers in Virginia have >found a spot in the brain that becomes electrically active when people think >about God? > This sounds a lot like a Weekly World News report. What was the source for this? Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:03:35 From: Jeff Miller Subject: Re: IN> Wording > Trust me, this is being discussed even now. What you will >_never_ see is how to become an AA/DP, though. Uh-uh, no way. >It might make an interesting climax to a campaign, but then people >will want rules on how to _be_ an AA/DP and that is faaaaar out of >the scope of the game! > That's when you break out the Primal Order books.... Jeff Miller Program Director/Webmaster for Agamemcon II Burbank Airport Hilton -- May 22-24, 1998 Contact Info: 24161-H Hollyoak (714)643-8352 Laguna Hills, CA 92656 www.primenet.com/~shadocat/agamemcon.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:08:42 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: IN> Another take on demons (A tad long) Hopefully I can drag the List kicking and screaming back to philosophy. :) This comes off of an occult mail list I belong to. I'm removing all names and such from the post, to protect the original posters, and my own sorry demonic hide. I have a ton of this stuff archived. This is a posting, and a response. I felt it was not only deep, but relevant, about the nature of demons. > On another note entirely, it seems luminously clear to me that demons are, > as ******* has put it, a human epiphenomenon. That is only to say, > if there were no humans there would be no demons either. No one I have > heard reporting demonic possession, either historically or on list, has yet > said anything that would indicate any other possibility. I am not arguing > that this in any way explains them -- it does not -- but it does leave > evidence rather scant for their independent existence (as distinguished from > their real existence as a human epiphenomenon, which I have no doubt of). > My question is, why would the independent existence of demons make them more > *interesting*? It would only make them more like beavers, building annoying > dams, flooding farmland and leaving gnawed off trees lying around to to > testify to their ongoing activity when humans were nowhere around. So far > as I can tell, demons never do ANYTHING when humans are not somewhere > around. I mean they do nothing that is not designed in some way to make a > point to a human witness, whether the witness happens to be there at the > time the sign is made, or only happens to see it later. No one in their > right mind is likely to argue that beaver droppings were intended to make a > point to a human witness. Not that beavers are not quite interesting in > their own way, of course, but to me it seems that people who argue for the > independent existence of demons -- demons as beavers -- as though that made > demons more *interesting* -- are actually missing the whole point of what is > really interesting about them, which is rooted in the things human culture, > the human psyche and the human body are capable of generating and > sustaining. We create many things that seem, at the time or later, not to > have been our own. Some of them are quite powerful. None of this is near > well enough understood. Why muddy the waters by deciding it would be more > *interesting* if the demons had sort of always been there, like beavers in > the woods? Not necessarily. My personal take, is that demons are predators/parasites *on humans*. As they feed on consciousness, only humans, in our level of understanding, offer them sufficient sustenance to be worth consuming. Like the AIDS virus, they are rather species- specific, but in this case it is a matter where any other species which they might infect or prey upon is outside of ordinary human comprehension. On the other hand, the "higher" animals are often quite sensitive to certain changes in consciousness. Dogs, cats, and other pets are often clairvoyant, and if a spirit presence manifests in their perceptive range they will react quite strongly to it. This includes the possession and "overshadowing" of humans who approach them. No, Claire, I think that while *human* experience of demons tends to center around human beings, that's mainly because human *experience* tends to center around humans. We would seldom be aware of or understand the kind of spiritual entity that might specialize in terrorizing dogs; on the other hand when we encounter one that feeds on snake psyches, we tend to call it a Peacock Angel, rather than a demon. ****** Emily K. Dresner, M.S.Eng. Applications Programmer III and Balseraph of the Game Desktop Applications Team - Medical Center Information Technology Current Quote: "Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Prank a Malakite, and you're on your own..." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:11:33 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio Telegraph At 1:38 PM -0500 11/12/97, MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 11/10/97 9:07:46 AM, you wrote: > >>The Kyrio telegraph is a cute idea. As for the problem of talking >>with a pigeon -- how about using a crow instead?[...] > >I suddenly had this image from Diane Duane's _Support_Your_Local_Wizard_, >of Macchu Piccu, the prophetic Myna. Who "Peaches," as he is known, turns >out to be is one of the great points of the book. > > Mark (The Lone Power is Lucifer, of course...) "Eldest, Fairest, and Fallen -- greeting, and defiance." (The polite way to speak to the Lone Power.) *ahem* Yes, that series is very interesting. (_Book of Night with Moon_ is out in trade paperback in the US. Cat-wizards.) Quite possibly a source of inspiration for some Saint/Soldier oriented campaigns, I'd say... Can't be adapted *quite* as well as some things, but certainly inspirational. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:13:28 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Balsy question At 12:39 PM -0500 11/12/97, John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> >That's exactly how I've been running it, but I'm hoping Karakash can set >> >my mind at ease on how close to canon I'm coming.... >> >> >> >> --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor >> GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ > > In case anyone was wondering, anything Elizabeth says is >about as official as it gets. The Un/holy triumvirate (Steve, Beth >and myself) all generate canon stuff but the general power ranking >is about in that order: Beth can overrule me (though she couches >them as 'suggestions' and makes me see the error of my ways) (Unless I'm brainfried when I make the suggestion and Karakash makes me see the error of *my* ways. Or if he's GMing. Hey, where *were* we on the PBEM, he?) >and Steve can overrule either of us. Mind you, ALL of us have been >forced to rethink matters when people have politely, and correctly, >disagreed with us. Exactly! The only time I won't rethink something is when it's in print... And sometimes even then. Outcasts *can too* go celestial. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:04:06 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> IN Character Sheet .BMP At 12:21 AM +0000 11/12/97, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: >> [Pee Kitty] >> >It's a 640x480 B&W Windows BitMap (.BMP) file, only 38K. It prints out >> >very nice at 8.5"x11". Anyone interested in a copy? I suppose I could just >> >stick it on my web site, but if there was a lot of interest I could post >> >it to the list with the Archangel of I-N-List's blessing... >> >[Beth] >> >> (Among other reasons, it's no good to *me* -- I don't use >> Vapusoft Windows.) > >If Pee Kitty sends it to me, I can send it back to her(/him/it - >speaking of gender in a genderless environment) in GIF format. That >should be much more readable by everybody. It still doesn't go on the list, though. On the INC, sure. But *not* the list... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:07:31 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Wording At 1:19 AM -0500 11/12/97, Calabim@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 97-11-11 10:41:21 EST, you write: > ><< Trust me, this is being discussed even now. What you will > _never_ see is how to become an AA/DP, though. Uh-uh, no way. > It might make an interesting climax to a campaign, but then people > will want rules on how to _be_ an AA/DP and that is faaaaar out of > the scope of the game! > >> > >I would like to see AA/DP design rules for In Nomine. IN would almost >certainly break with such characters as PC's however. Okay... They're simple. Pick a Word for the character to embody. Explain how much of the concept they tap into. Pick Choir/Band/Servitor Attunements. Figure out Relations, Rites, and Invocation stuff. Let the GM see. Take FUDGE or Amber and work out relative power-levels in regards to the other Superiors (NPC and PC). Let the GM tweak. Then get into the politics and try very hard not to get into any sort of combat with other Superiors because the GM will just stare at you sadly. Send your Servitors on missions! Give them Distinctions! Thwart your enemies! Drink some coffee... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:18:36 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Anachronistic Words At 11:29 AM -0700 11/12/97, Kingsley Lintz wrote: >> Words can be changed, yes, but generally nobody *does* -- the Word >> becomes so much a part of one, that few celestials could conceive > What about `promotion'? I mean, if someone hopes to be the Angel >of Weather, which would be a pretty big responsibility, do they have to >somehow prove themselves THAT capable while AVOIDING being assigned any >other Words on the way, until they can actually get Weather? Yup. They can prove themselves by serving the Word of their Superior (and/or a superior Word-bound with a similar Word), but they have to have an aptitude that can be proven before they're bound to a Word. > I tend to see it as kind of in between...people somewhat OFTEN >move to related words. (The Angel of Gentle Rains taking over the >recently vacated spot as Angel of Cloud Cover, say, but it would be very >rare for the Angel of Gentle Rains to even think about becoming the Angel >of Digital Watches.) Read the FAQ for that one -- you can *CERTAINLY* do it that way, but the canon state is that once you have a Word, it's a *part* of you, and you can no more seriously want to change it than you would want to spay/neuter yourself without anesthetic. A Word can be stripped from you, but that's a nasty punishment... >> Renegades and Outcasts keep Words. Fallen or Redeemed loses it. > What about Remnants? You'll have to find one and ask. They do keep Attunements and Rites, though. Hm. Yeah. They keep their Words -- or at least whatever Attunements and Rites it allows them to access. Whether re-granting a Word that a Remnant "holds" will lead to a Fire-Fire style symphonic conflict... is unknown. Who wants to risk it? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:26:38 -0500 (EST) From: Ozmodeus Subject: Re: IN> Dice? According to Emily Dresner: > > No, the dice are fair. The GM is merciless. And arbitrary. And cruel. > I don't think the dice need to be there to convey mercy. Hell, the dice > are much nicer then I could ever be. > But then again, the dice are so random, that anything can happen. They help keep moderation around for when the GM is cruel and sneaky so the PC's can stick out their tongues and go PLPLPLPLPLPLPLPL!!!! when the GM seems to get it as much as they do... > Besides, it isn't the dice telling the story, it's the GM. See above, if you let the dice be a check on the GM, then the GM has to work harder, and that's when the REALLY fun stuff comes out.... Random chance is so much fun in a game that I can't imagine playing WITHOUT dice. To know that everything was someone's decision seems like it would dull things just a bit. Heck, I recently made a character for a game where I couldn't choose between my final two songs. It was one or the other, so I had my GM flip a coin. I had to take what I got and work it. It's all good.... > > Of course, I would probably roll the dice in this case if it was a > critical point, just because the game calls for dice and that's that. But > otherwise, if it's not that important, why bother? > The not important things are are what always get ya. I don't mean trivialities like opening doors, but small things can trip up the best players..... God's in the Details. > rather entertaining. But some of it was a GM call, and I would rather not > break the flow of the story to roll dice and screw the player. I can > screw her all by myself without the little plastic cubes. As far as flow, it's just practice. Dice can be completely natural if you use them right, so there's no need to "break stride" for lack of a better term. As to screwing players, I often do it myself. Then roll the dice and get something that I didn't want so I have to GM my way out of it. It's a mutual challenge thing. Dan Ozdowksi - -- The Devil's Cabana Boy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 01:21:28 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: IN> IN : Adventure : AIRPLANE!!! AIRPLANE!!! : An In Nomine Adventure - ------------------------------------- (with thanks to the Archangel Beth, who contributed ideas) The action of the adventure takes place, for the most part, on a big airliner somewhere over the Atlantic, or over an inhospitable part of land, or whatever is dramatic fun. I like the idea of convincing the PCs that the action is really due to start the other end, and that the GM's, "Well, you get on the plane, you take your seats," is merely dramatic preamble to be shortly followed by "you get off the plane safely the other end..." They should be so lucky. The PCs (either knowing who each other is, or separate entities with separate missions and objectives) are about to be stuck in the middle of an airline hijack, organised by a group of demons, complicated by at least a few other celestial passengers and a lot of other mortal ones. The Setup - --------- The PCs have been handed tickets for the airline flight, which is a good long-distance one (at least six-ten hours), and most probably have some motivation for being aboard. They may notice each other in the guest lounge or duty-free shops before boarding, or while boarding. Ideally, assign them each ticketed positions in the plane and give them each some next-door neighbours. Sample motivations for being on the flight include: Protect Person/Thing also on flight, such as: Annoying six-year-old Tommy Johnson in the seat directly behind you, who apparently has a really important Destiny/Fate. Dear Mrs Monanhan, sixty years old, who has an incurable belief in the goodness of the human soul, even the kidnappers - just let her talk to them, really... The stolen Vienna diamonds in the knapsack of the young thief over there who's impersonating a college student. The documents for a vital trade deal in the briefcase of Michael Walters, corporate executive. Ashteneh, Djinn of Asmodeus, who is about to defect, and on the edge of Redeeming. Hopefully his awkward habit of fixating/attuning on random people/things won't be too awkward. Oh, and watch out for people wanting to get rid of him or take him Back Down There. Get Somewhere On Time Wherever the plane's going, really. Oh, and make sure Person X gets there too. Cause Vital Change in Person X on flight Kill them. Convert them. Make sure they read the in-flight magazine, which will spark a vital development in their Fate/Destiny. Introduce them to the person on the other side of you. Serve and Protect Make the plane a nicer place to be. Encourage cooperation, good manners, and thought for others. Help the passengers work together and achieve strength through unity. Fold, Spindle, or Mutilate Destroy things, people, and relationships. Poison friendships. Cause pain. Join the Mile-High-Club. Put a banana skin in front of the stewardess during turbulence. The Hijackers - ------------- This group consists of a Djinn of Kronos (Ereves), a Lilim of Kronos (Stratha), two Calabites of Baal (Vondine and Kellere), a Habbalite of Factions (Methis) and a couple of human Soldiers. Their task is to take over the plane, fly it to Some Inconvenient Spot, then see to it that it is destroyed with only one definite survivor (others may live or die as chance sends): Mr Jake Brenson, a businessman on whom this whole affair will have a catastrophic effect, tipping him towards a dark Fate as a ruthless tycoon. Ereves is attuned to Brenson. They recognise each other's Vessels: Ereves has one as a businessman (Eric Reeves) and Stratha as his secretary (Simon Strathbourne), and they sit together; Vondine (Eric von Dinen) appears a harmless student, his backsack containing several guns and grenades and gas grenades; Kellere (Patrick Keller) looks like a family man on holiday, and is sitting next to Methis (Margaret Keller) who is posing as his wife. The two are arguing quite a lot. The soldiers (well, just put in as many as you feel suitable to make up a good challenge for your PCs) are elsewhere in the plane. The hijack is due to start a couple of hours into the flight. Precise mechanics are left up to the GM, but Ereves and Stratha will probably keep the flight crew under control while Vondine, Kellere and the Soldiers menace the passengers. Methis' purpose is to act as a spokesperson for the "hijackers" and to keep the emotions of the passengers at a pitch of fear and depression that should prevent open attack. They will claim to be representatives of some obscure but vicious revolutionary front, acting as an example to the world. The hijackers will _try_ to avoid killing if they can help it, in case it risks Brenson. However, if they must, they will. If they realise that other Celestials are on board, they will _certainly_ do their best to remove them fatally (claiming that they are "examples" for the good behaviour of the other passengers. When they reach their target destination (if they get that far) they willl announce that they are parachuting out with hostages. (Brenson and some random person). They will shoot the flight staff and disable the controls before leaping out, leaving the plane to crash, and abandoning Brenson on the ground to fulfil his Fate. Other People On Board - --------------------- It strains coincidence that there might be other Celestials on board beside the current mob. Then again, anything's possible. There's Brenson himself, a fairly average man, who has not so far done anything to warrant the future awaiting him. (He also has a possible Destiny, if inspired by the day's events to promote cooperation, fellowship, self-sacrifice...) There are all the standard regulars on disaster movie planes. Two religious old grannies (it would be an act of purest cruelty to seat them either side of people like a Servitor of Asmodeus, or an Ofanite of Eli... still.) The family with screaming kids. Several families with screaming kids. Hard-nosed businessmen who will try and insist on negotiating, or will stifle attempts at cooperation on the grounds that "if we sit still, they won't shoot" or "if we try and attack together, we'll get mown down, and I'm not going to die for your sake". Uncle Ted with the heart condition (cue dramatic near-fatal heart attack) who needs to get to X on time for vital medication or surgery. Aunt Mavis who used to be a commercial pilot till she lost her nerve and became an alcoholic, but still remembers how to handle the controls of a plane. Idealistic students. Terrified students. Drug smugglers. Guitar-playing nuns. The usual suspects. Possible Play - ------------- As is probably obvious, I can see this as a fairly cinematic scenario, with plenty of high tension, loads of hostages, and a chance for James Bond style stunts. This could even be played with a mixed group of demons and angels, allying against the hijackers to get the plane back on course and on time for their own reasons. ("I'll kill you later: for the moment we're allies.") There probably isn't a live gorilla or anaconda being transported anaesthetised in the hold, however. Nor did anyone already plant a bomb there. Then again, if it makes you happy... Opinions welcome, as ever. Maya - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #469 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.