From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Nov 24 13:55:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA17796 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:55:37 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA21807 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:41:08 -0600 Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:41:08 -0600 Message-Id: <199711241941.NAA21807@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #485 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, November 24 1997 Volume 01 : Number 485 In this digest: Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) RE: IN> Re: your mail Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord RE: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #483 Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) IN> Things that make you glad to be alive Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Lilith's Origin Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) Re: IN> Relievers Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord (was Re: Achmetha) IN> Damned Souls and Demons IN> Angels and Souls Re: IN> Strange Question/Hell Mechanics IN> The Black Mother (plot seed) Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord Re: IN> Creation of angels/demons Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord IN> re: Lilith's Origin Re: IN> Strange Question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:33:09 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) > Lilith was created from the dust of the ground, just like Adam. She > just didn't like his additude and walked out. Personally, I'd > happily give up a Geas/6 to learn the Tetragrammaton. I take it the Tetragrammaton is the name of God that Lilith spoke? Or am I missing a Kult reference. > I just put forth a (very) twisted view of what happened, to maybe > make up for the discrepancy with the "Why God made Humans in his own > image and so weak" and "Why Humans are so important". I like things > twisted. It makes the world interesting. Yes, it does. It's too metaphysical for me (I prefer even my mystical games to be fairly gritty) but it's cool nonetheless... > - Em, The Demon of Playing In Nomine Backwards I'm assuming you're Balseraph, but who is your Superior? I can't quite see Kobal as being into backwards IN... ...unless IN existed in the IN world, and was close to the truth. Then I might see him wanting somebody to have people play backwards. After all, it's great training in how to think like a Soldier of Hell, and is damned ironic that IN *hasn't* been plagued with the "RPGs are evil" flap that other games have been. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Have you ever noticed...whenever God needed a killing...he sent an angel. Have you ever wondered what a creature like that must be like? Your whole existence praising your God but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" - The Prophecy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:46:29 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> Re: your mail >> Why is Gaberial described as female? My reading of the Bible and the Koran >> is that Gabby was male. I am just chauvinist or did Derek and CROC send >> Gabby to a clinic in Europe? > >According to the main IN book, Gabby has used vessels of both genders, >but in recent years has preferred a female manifestation. > >Me, I figure that's all part of being insane :) > >(Ducking.) > >-Rob Well, it kinda makes sense, gender identity disorder (I KNOW this an angel we're talking about here, jeez) is a class of disorders characterized by a strong and persistant sense of inappropriateness concerning one's gender identification. Not that I put much stock in it (and god-know NO broth - sorry :)... On the other hand, hearing voices and other hallucinations is something 75% of schizophrenics report. That doesn't mean that she's schizophrenic. Schizophrenics often cannot hold their attention to any one thing, they may feel overwhelmed at they try to attend to everything at once. The person may feel detached from the real world, others feel like flat cutouts. They can feel like a machine. However, schizophrenics tend not to experience extreme emotions, not usually. Usually, they suffer from "flat affect", showing little or no emotion. Those who do often display inappropriate emotion. There's a lack of connection between thoughts and feelings... Well, there's many different kinds... Gabriel is NOT schizophrenic IMHO (and very amateur to boot!) But that doesn't mean she's not nuts! - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I saw a monster come with speed, It's face of grimmest green. On human beings it used to feed, Most dreadful to be seen. -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:13:54 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord > > That's the thing, I couldn't find a reference anywhere to how long > > it takes a disturbance to fade or not. My impression from the > > writeup in the IN Rulebook was it tends to fade pretty quickly- > > otherwise you'd get more than one shot to Percieve it. > > You have to have heard the noise originally to hear the echoes. > They last for a number of minutes equal to the target number of your > roll, before it is modified for distance. So anybody who heard it > would be hearing echoes for nearly 500 years. Now granted, Saminga > wasn't the cause of *all* of those deaths, but... Correction - I used the wrong number for that. Make it over seven *millenia*...which is what I was thinking of saying (the millenia, not the seven), before I decided that would be to overblown an estimate... Jeeze, what a bang...kinda puts a rock concert to shame... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "Have you ever noticed...whenever God needed a killing...he sent an angel. Have you ever wondered what a creature like that must be like? Your whole existence praising your God but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" - The Prophecy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:59:16 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #483 "Hey, Bob, you hear something?" "Like what?" "Sounds like the anguished cry of someone being smothered..." "Bill, what in the Hell are you talking about? I don't... wait a goddam miture! What in the Hell?!" > TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS > LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF > THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME > OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE > ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! > TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS > LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF > THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME > OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE > ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!!TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST!!!!! "Sweet Jesus on high! What the Hell was that?!" "That, Bob, was one poor, poor soul." "What could 'ave made him like that?" "He was drowning in sacreligious e-mail. Poor bastard. Most likely he'd been swimming in the stuff for months." "Well, that's a bummer. Pass me a beer, would ya, Bill." "There ya go. You know what, Bob. That's just the kind of thing than makes you glad to be alive." "Yup. That and fried chicken." - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I saw a monster come with speed, Its face of grimmest green. On human beings it used to feed, Most dreadful to be seen. -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:03:12 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) > > Lilith was created from the dust of the ground, just like Adam. She > > just didn't like his additude and walked out. Personally, I'd > > happily give up a Geas/6 to learn the Tetragrammaton. > > I take it the Tetragrammaton is the name of God that Lilith spoke? > Or am I missing a Kult reference. Nope, that's just Occult. The Tetragrammaton is the Name of God. > > I just put forth a (very) twisted view of what happened, to maybe > > make up for the discrepancy with the "Why God made Humans in his own > > image and so weak" and "Why Humans are so important". I like things > > twisted. It makes the world interesting. > > Yes, it does. It's too metaphysical for me (I prefer even my > mystical games to be fairly gritty) but it's cool nonetheless... > > > - Em, The Demon of Playing In Nomine Backwards > > I'm assuming you're Balseraph, but who is your Superior? I can't > quite see Kobal as being into backwards IN... http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/INChar/Demons/Balseraph.Em.html Em, Balseraph Captain of the Game, Demon of Playing In Nomine Backwards I have Rites and everything. :) I work for Azzie. But I hang with Kobal's people sometimes, just because it's cool. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:42:04 -0200 From: Andre Ribeiro Subject: IN> Things that make you glad to be alive > "Well, that's a bummer. Pass me a beer, would ya, Bill." > "There ya go. You know what, Bob. That's just the kind of thing than > makes you glad to be alive." > "Yup. That and fried chicken." And mud baths...):-9 Andre, D.P. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:12:29 -0500 From: John Dye Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question Casca wrote: (quibbles deleted) Now that you two are finished flaming one another, I made the "human" Lilith in my alternate history the reason the Grigori fell in the first place. Lilith wasn't just MADE a Demon Princess, she had to earn it one force at a time. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:59:30 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Lilith's Origin I like the general idea that Lilith doesn't follow the rules for human/celestial distinctions because she never ate of the Tree of Knowledge. Also, since Eve was made from Adam's rib, she and Adam might have been much more alike than Adam and Lilith. So, from the perspective of Eve-descended humanity, Lilith is just Something Else, sui generis, not "human" in our sense, not celestial, just Lilith. There is, though, an underlying reason for the disconnect. The whole idea of Lilith as Adam's first wife is relatively late, being invented in the Middle Ages. Lilith dates back a long time before that, but her legend was simpler then; she was just the Dark Female, a demon representing the evil side of femininity, who seduced and killed young men, and slaughtered babies. Another recent addition to the legend of Lilith is to identify her with the Serpent in the Garden of Eden. If you look at the picture of the Temptation by Michelangelo on the ceiling of the Cistine Chapel, you will see the Serpent painted as a sort of snakey mermaid. Lots of other, lesser pictures of the scene show the Serpent with a woman's head. In the 19th century, Dante Gabriel Rosetti wrote a rather steamy poem about Lilith, in which she apparently started out as a serpent, took or was given human shape to have an affair with Adam, and did the Temptation out of jealousy when Eve was created. The original legend of Lilith as Adam's wife comes from a collection of tales called "The Alphabet of Ben Sira," and there is a copy at: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/alphabet.html A discussion of the history of this story is at: http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/950206_Lilith.html A copy of the Rosetti poem is posted in the IN archives at: http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/articles/eden.txt I will post any of these three to the list or to individuals from the list on request. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:18:52 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) "If celestials are better than human, why didn't Got stop with them?" Or why, as someone else observed, go on to chimps if humans are better than chimps? Or squirrels, or lizards, or bugs, or grass, or dirt. From late antiquity to the nineteenth century, metaphysics was dominated by an idea called the Great Chain of Being -- the idea that the whole plan of creation is to have every possible level filled. Under that scheme, the only special thing about humans is that they appear to be rather in the middle of the scale. The scale runs roughly: God angels humans animals plants rocks One argument for the existence of angels was that they fill in the gap between humans and God. People occasionally argued for the existence of fairies on the grounds that they filled the gap between humans and angels. Then you have half-elven... Etc. So, the whole idea was not to just have the best but to have the complete set. The Great Chain of Being was definitely standard when the angelologies that IN uses were being made up. You'll notice the IN choirs run from most divine to least divine. "We don't know about any souls beside human." Well, if you want to take the Bible as source material for the game, we do. God refers to His own soul. Genesis 1 and the Noah story, along with other places, refer to the souls of non-human animals. "Only humans are made in the image of God." Often asserted, but the whole "image of God" thing is found ONLY at the creation of humanity in Genesis 1. It doesn't say we are the only thing with that image, and elsewhere in the Bible, notably Job and the psalms, it refers to angels as "gods" and "sons of god," which sounds just about as nifty. So, you could of course use God-image envy as a motive among angels in your campaign if you want to, but neither the Bible nor the Judeo-Christian tradition as a whole puts much pressure that way. One traditional motive for the Fall of the Angels is Lucifer's wanting to usurp God's throne. This is the motive used in Milton's "Paradise Lost," Dante's "Inferno" (I think), and occasionally implied in the IN book. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:39:11 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) On Nov 22, 1:50am, Jesse Rooeny wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) > >> In the standard IN worldview, celestials are way better than us, no > >> doubt. They have souls, super-powers, they're pretty much immortal. > >> There is nothing about us that makes us special in any way. So why > >> didn't God stop with them? > (1) Mortal's souls -are- immortal. We are going to soar in Heaven or burn > in Hell forever. It is alot easier to soul kill an angel than it is to > soul kill a mortal and only one charceter in the stanard In Nomine continum > does that, the Prince of Death. Immortal... usually. The souls of mortals can be destroyed permanently in the same way that a celestial's soul can be destroyed. Blast someone's Forces out of existence (or strip them down for other uses) and that person is GONE. Some souls also, for unknown reasons, simply disband upon death and their Forces go back to the Symphony. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:40:26 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Relievers On Nov 22, 4:08am, Ijon Tichy wrote: > Subject: IN> Relievers > Hi. > > The main book (the only one I have) goes into VERY little detail about > relievers. In fact, it seems almost as if SJG don't want us to use 'em. Or > rather, a cheap "buy the next book" scheme? > I shan't deign to ponder that one further. Good idea. The real reason is called 'page count'. Too many ideas, not enough pages. There's a LOT of stuff that didn't make it into the main rulebook that has to wait for later ones. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:42:53 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > > Celestial reproduction (both demonic and angelic) is going > > to involve contribution of forces to the newborn. Several celestials > > can contribute and there's usually a Superior involved (unapproved > > procreation is a no-no). Even Lucifer, though, cannot turn a > > human soul into demonic soul as far as we know. He has taken an > > essential demonic (celestial) soul and bolstered it with Forces > > stripped from humans, OTOH. > > > > I believe this to be in error. To wit, IN p. 149-150: "[...] > Lilith [...] Created as the first wife of Adam in God's famous experiment > in the Garden of Eden, she exercised her free will and walked away. > Lucifer offered her power, dark Essence, and the Word of Freedom. Lilith > accepted [....]" > > In other words, there *is* a precedence for Lucifer being able to change a > human into a demon... or am I missing something? The thing you are missing is that no one specifically ever said that Lilith was _human_. Wife != Human. =) Lilith was probably a special creation of some sort... (non-canon idea) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:46:49 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki) John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > Some souls also, for unknown reasons, simply disband upon > death and their Forces go back to the Symphony. I always figured these were the people who did absolutely nothing with their lives. In Dante's "Inferno," they exist, but barely. They haunt a darkling plain outside the gates of Hell, rushing in aimless pursuit of a blank banner. Virgil, Dante's guide, explains that they are such ciphers that Hell won't have them lest the damned feel superior to them, and of course Heaven is out of the question. Dante is surprised to see how many people fall into that category. In Niven and Pournell's Dante spinoff (also entitled "Inferno"), the protagonist starts out dying and ending up on that plain, but is able to continue spiritual development thanks to help charitably given. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:54:13 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord (was Re: Achmetha) > The farthest away the good ones can be and still automatically detect it > is 1800*6.1 = 10980 miles ...and the Earth is only 8,000 miles in > diameter as the crow burrows (or swims through that molten part in the > middle). Since it's a Celestial sound, it wouldn't be slowed down by > earth, would it? [Canon Request] I'd say that it's not stopped by minor details such as planets. =) > Don't count on many Celestials spending Essence during this time, though; > where in the book it says that "When several Symphony-changing actions > take place together, or nearly together, in space and time, treat each > one as a new event that includes all the preceding ones." (p. 55) The > house rule I use in this case is that the "in time" part is one quarter > of the value of the latest disturbance in minutes. So someone spends 3 > Essence near ground zero within 7.5 hours, and up goes an echo with a > value of 1803. Repeat above calculations. I haven't decided on a good > Rule of Thumb for the "space" part; I'm open to suggestions. [Canon > Request] Totally GM's area. It's supposed to be a balancing mechanism to stop noisy PCs. I usually say that anything happening in one 'scene' will count for Disturbance unless the PCs specifically wait for the echoes to die down. > [Canon Request] Are there any Celestials on the moon? Celestials are not limited to the earth. Some have, undoubtably travelled as far as the moon, but most don't bother because their job in the corporeal realm is on Earth! OTOH, there is an angel of Space Flight in my game and he's been on every manned mission to the moon. Despite some infernal interference. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:36:26 +0000 From: "a superhero named tony" Subject: IN> Damned Souls and Demons >>Two doesn't decide where demons come from, but it's not implausible >>to suggest >>that Lucifer's come up with a way to turn the damned into demons. >Nononononononononononono... At least, not in canon. Human >souls and angel/demon souls are qualitatively different. You can >come close, with Undead and Saints, but those are still humans, and >will never get Choir/Band resonances, etc. Er, actually, doesn't it state somewhere in Heaven and Hell(not sure where, my book's in my apartment, and I am in my suck job) that damned souls CAN become demons, just very rarely(something about how it's a really bad long term idea for the soul, but souls in Hell didn't get there by thinking long-term anyway). I like the ideas of where do angels and demons come from, esp. the stripping down of forces from a demon, and the bit about awakening angels. But hey, I don't GM, let alone write canon, so take my opinion for what its worth(nothing). OUT, Charlie V. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:07:08 +0000 From: "a superhero named tony" Subject: IN> Angels and Souls > > I remebered what it was that made us better than angels. We are made in > > the image of God the inference being God did not make angels in His image. > > Prehaps this means that God, the Creator, made us creators too, we can make > > tools and clone sheep and all that whereas angels may just be uncreative or > > something. > Have any of you played or read Armegeddon, by C.J. Carella(Myrmidon press). I think he actually gives a really good explanation of why humans matter to the celestials. In the game, Angels are tougher, stronger, faster, smarter, etc. But humans(actually, any sentient life, but this games is set of Earth) are made in the Creators image, each of us having a spark of the divine. We are on a long, slow, not-altogether certain path of becoming creatures like God, and the angels job is to protect us. Many of the demons(in fact, many of the angels) don't like this idea, and are frankly scared of humans, and would like to either keep us ignorant, or pull a Lucifer and try and wipe us out(guess who was responsible for the Great Flood, which very nearly wiped out humanity- the Angels). While the game has way too much of the "I'm C.J. Carellla, and will have everything in my game, up to and including intelligent kitchen sinks" mentality, I do really like the cosmology, and would reccomend it to any fans of celestial games in general, not just In Nomine(e.g. Kult, Nephilim, Rapture). later, Charlie V. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:19:08 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question/Hell Mechanics > > - Em, Workin out the mechanics for Demonic Unions. > > The damn thing about you is I can't tell if you're kidding. In this > case, I hope you are at least serious enough to start when people > start screaming at you to do so. I personally would love tons of > stuff on the way Hell's heirarchy works, and what demonic laws > (de facto or de jure) exist to prevent all out war in Hell. > Yeah, it's a pain. I might be kidding! I might not! It's a Wheel of Em! Spin spin spin. On the offside, I have given some thought to the way Hell actually holds itself together, since it's quickly becoming pertinant in my stories at least. I can tell you, for sure, that the internals of each and every organization works completely different from the others. Where Asmodeus might have a strict hierarchy, everyone over the rank of Baron in Kobal's hierarchy are suspect. As someone mentioned, he has a tendancy to point to some schmuck, and say, "You! You are now the Duke of Office Supplies! Get hopping, boy! Where is my automatic pencil?" There are two completely different sets of politics that are going on here. There are the internal politics of the servitors, who are always vying for recognition, trying to do the status climb thing, attempting to get enough notice to get Earth service, stabbing and climbing over each other. Sometimes it's very nice and polite, like in honorable combat within Baal's ranks. Sometimes, like in Abaddon, the status climbing is neither honorable nor nice. It depends on where you are. I could write all these up, if you would like. As for the cold war between the actual Princes, that's different. I rely on the politics set in the sourcebook as a guideline to how everyone communicates. Between carefully worked out set treaties, military buildups, veiled threats, terrorist activities, and reminders of who is allied with who, they keep the peace, or the war at arm's length. Ever play Civ II? Ever gotten to the point where everyone has nuclear missles and tanks on the border waiting to roll, and what holds everyone at bay is the UN and a hatful of treaties? I have some of this worked out as well, but keeping a Bay of Pigs sort of tension all of the time keeps everyone on their toes, playing little games. I have a bit on this too, if you would like. I sort of imagine Malphas as the ultimate negotiator. Shal-Mari, with it's three allied Princes along with the happy support of Nybbas and Valefor make them much more stable then I think anyone would like to acknowledge. Yeah, taking out the city, or the demons under their respective Princes who actually run the place, would effectively shut them all down at once, but that's one hell of a terrorist attack, and that would incur the wrath of everyone not in the city at the time. Good luck. - - Em, Demon of Hell's Politics. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:18:21 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> The Black Mother (plot seed) (NB. This is irrelevant but I found a fun reference at http://cyberland. recife.softex.br/~mephisto/Demons.htm -- my personal fave is Azazel who introduced cosmetics, apparently ;0 ) ********** Summary: An ethereal god begs the (angelic) PCs for help in putting its case to the Seraphim council in order to warn of a terrible impending disaster of which it refuses to speak. If they can arrange for a superior to hear its concern, they may end up helping to prevent Kali, the Black Mother, from being reincarnated to walk the earth in physical form... Background: Kali, the Indian goddess of destruction was banished from the corporeal plane not by any angelic crusade but by a powerful mortal sorcerer 1500 years in the past and now may only walk the earth once in every millenium. Since then she has been skulking in the Far Marches, or as an occasional but welcomed guest in Beleth's realm, preparing for her return. Now the wheel has turned, her servants have been able to perform the ritual sacrifice of 200 babies and 23 years ago she was able to possess the form of a newborn baby girl in Bombay (Mumbai). Fortunately, a local wise man (a soldier of Krishna) witnessed the girl in the grip of a violent fit at the age of 6 and was able to give her a binding gem to wear -- an uncut sapphire which has suppressed the goddess within her for all of these intervening years and helped to hide her from prying immortal eyes. Neither Kronos nor Yves had managed to perceive the sharp fate/ destiny that surrounded her. However... the pendant has now been accidentally removed, Kali's personality is uppermost and she, with one of Belial's servitors, seeks to break the original binding spell so that she might come into her full power. Intro: Hanuman, the monkey god, has been given the short straw by Krishna and been picked to beg the angelic forces to send help before it is too late -- they would have preferred to handle the matter themselves but outside India their power is not great. As an ethereal god, he cannot manifest on earth and his only tethers are in India, or in certain museums. Having become aware of one or more of the PCs he attempts to either contact them in the Marches (if they go there) or send messages via the dreams of one of their servants. He intends to direct them to one of the museums that holds his image, where he will be able to briefly speak through a statue's stone mouth. He informs them that a great destruction is poised to be loosed on the earth but that he has been commanded to speak of it only to the most powerful of angelic devi. (Hanuman is a great and noble warrior god who would happily have allied with Laurence to destroy evil if his allegiances weren't so strongly with his own pantheon, and if Laurence had shown any interest at all). He begs the PCs to put his case (chances of the seraphim council letting an ethereal god address them are vanishingly small), but will be persuaded to speak to any single superior that the PCs can summon. He tells the superior of Kali's current incarnation (a young doctor called Meena Dal) and that she is searching for a grimoire which is sealed with seven seals (naturally ;) ). If they are broken, the goddess will be freed from the restriction to wear mortal flesh and will be able to walk the earth in her true form -- it should be clear that if this happens she is likely to be at least a match for any superior. If Meena is killed, the goddess will probably be sent back to the Marches (no certainty here) but the PCs will have also definitely have killed an innocent soul. It is necessary that the book be found and kept safe, and/or that the goddess be suppressed again. If the superior is sympathetic, then the PCs are liable to be sent on a secret mission to help with this, and Hanuman is granted the use of an earthly vessel (an animal of some sort) and the ethereal song of tongues, in order to guide them. (Its a secret mission because the seraphim council does not generally approve of celestials being sent off to aid ethereal gods and does not officially accept that any of them may pose a threat to the current order). For infernal PCs, they are most likely contacted quietly by an inoffensive and non-combatent looking impudite who tells them of a plot to give absolute power to any demonic superior he thinks the PCs will want to combat. (He actually is serving Asmodeus who feels strongly that giving Belial absolute destructive allies before the demonic forces are ready for Armaggeddon is not something he wishes to happen unless he is SURE the allies are ultimately loyal to Hell). The baddies: Kali is trying to maintain the human identity until she is ready to reveal herself, but she is not always as subtle as she would like (friends have noticed how enthusiastic the young doctor seems to have become on the subject of war, death and destruction and the intimidating gaze she seems to have acquired but are putting it down to over-work). She has managed to hook up with a pair of demons; one of Belial's shedim and one of Kronos' calabites. Belial is aware of what is going on and is loving every minute -- Kronos has not been fully informed by his servant, otherwise he would be more concerned (the calabite is getting carried away, it is in 'love' with Kali). They are being tailed by Martin, an impudite of The Game, who will recruit demonic PCs to his assistance if necessary. (His current role is as a camp (ie. very gay) hairdresser -- most demons will assume he is a servant of Lust and he spends about enough time getting his end away to keep up this pretence). Their problem is that the grimoire may only be read by a mortal (it is the last spell in the book which breaks a seal), powerful spells hide it from celestial eyes, and doing so seems to break the mortal's mind. So they have been locating existing sorcerors and persuading them to do it. As each new seal is broken, bad omens begin to occur... The PCs can try to follow the trail of insane sorcerors, or try to track Meena (who has suddenly taken her entire year's leave in one go and hasn't been seen for a week). Everywhere Kali and the two demons go is marked out by a trail of destruction. Kali (as Meena) is not yet in possession of her full abilities and has no 'songs' but does have 10 forces, concentrated in corporeal & ethereal. As each seal is broken, she gains an extra force (the last seal will give her a quantum leap in abilities and destroying her demonic 'allies' will probably be her first move). If the PCs can restrain Meena and get her to a powerful tether (it will probably have to be Notre Dame), it will be possible for a superior to re-suppress the Goddess and the Meena personality can be saved. There will also be ethereal soldiers (mostly in India) who will have the knowledge of how to invoke one of the Indian pantheon to help do this. If Kali manages to break all the seals, she begins by wreaking huge destruction on the country she is in and tries to return to India as quickly as she can. It may even be that both divine and infernal agents join to oppose her -- certainly whatever happens will be enormously destructive which is unfortunate as destruction tends to increase her power..... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:31:13 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord >>That's the thing, I couldn't find a reference anywhere to how long it takes >>a disturbance to fade or not. My impression from the writeup in the IN >>Rulebook was it tends to fade pretty quickly- otherwise you'd get more than >>one shot to Percieve it. > >Yay! I happen to have my book next to the computer from earlier today! > >p. 55: Once a celestial perceives an especially loud note in the >Symphony, he can hear its echoes for a number of minutes equal to his >original base roll to detect it had he been standing beside it. The >average celestial that heard Armageddon would hear it for 3,750,000,006 >minutes, or about 7,134 years. OTOH, any Celestial who- ha!- didn't hear the original sound would -not- be able to pick up on the echoes. Therefore those echoes must be subtle changes and variances in the Symphony and not just a blaringly loud ongoing din. Now, for DV purposes, I've declared by fiat that the really concentrated Symphony-ringing events (esp. Washington, Paris, Rome, and Jerusalem) -do- linger just because of their extreme shock to the Symphony. However, there's nothing in the core rules itself which justifies this. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "Hmmm... Sugar Plum Fairies." http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | --- Haagenti at the ballet c/o White Lightning Productions | * * * * * * http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | "MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Laurence and Haagenti http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:37:25 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Creation of angels/demons I like this model of angel and demon creation, too. If angels decide to "have a baby," perhaps they "adopt" a reliever (though I'm still rooting for "angelisco") from the Symphony rather than create one. As for demons, this would at least explain why C. S. Lewis's demon Scrwewtape has a "nephew" (name of Wormwood). Presumably Screwtape had a "sibling" made from the same fallen-angel fragments that Screwtape was made from. Said sibling subsequently came to a bad end and nephew Wormwood was created from the debris. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:58:18 -0500 (EST) From: Ozmodeus Subject: Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord Here's an idea about symphony noise: Aren't events separate noise creators? What I mean is, you're all counting the Apocalypse as ONE event with one big clang in the symphony. In reality, it was probably a bunch of big bombs that would definitely be heard, and a bunch of less severe, less "boomy" incidents. For example, the nuke that takes out Washington makes a huge noise. The celestial murder squad that kills a small group of people does not. There's a good chance that someone could miss the latter, especially in face of the former. It's like someone talking to you while an air raid siren is going off - it just doesn't get through. Don't get me wrong, this isn't exactly something that an angel or demon is going to miss hearing, I'm just pointing out that you all are treating armageddon as one big BOOM with the appropriate noise being heard 90 galaxies away for 137 million years. In reality, those nukes were probably the worst of it and they had supporting minor calamities that would have been overshadowed. So the noise wouldn't be heard 24 bazillion miles away, just 17..... :). DanOz - demon of taking things apart "accidentally" - -- "She...will go to some exotic heaven for glamorous pussy. You...will be stuck mopping the floor...in a diner... in Hell." "Guess so." - A Life Less Ordinary ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:19:30 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> re: Lilith's Origin I don't personally agree that Lilith was the first Grigori as I'd have thought the entire choir were created after the expulsion from Eden. Before then, they wouldn't have been needed ;-) But I don't have any problems with the idea that being thrown out of Eden changed the nature of humankind irrevocably. So they got the free-will they'd wanted (even if they hadn't realised it) at the cost of their semi-divine natures. Its one of life's little ironies that the so-called Princess of Freedom is the only 'mortal' ever created who does not have true free will - she never ate of the tree of knowledge but because she left before the curse of mortality, she had a celestial soul. After Eden, mortal souls were forever different from celestial ones (or something), but are considered rather more precious (in my worldview). So.. did Adam & Eve being tossed out of Eden happen before the Fall? :) jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:36:32 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > Of course, it's really hard to conceive of an angel in any other way than > like ourselves, at least for me. I find it hard to conceive of anything > intelligent to be unlike ourselves. I see it in popular culture. In > starwars, most/all the sentient beings walk on two feet, the nonsentient > ones don't. In Star Trek _everybody_ looks essentially human. But, > that can attributed to costuming and make-up artists. And lack of funds, and a set list of characters, other then the reoccuring ones, at least for Voyager. Star Trek would rock if they could make a race like the Vorlons every week, and different for every new race they hit. But it's just not viable given time/resources. Now DS9 is much better for exactly that reason - set races, large pool of reoccuring characters from recognizable races, etc. The races start to diverge from "human" as people have more leeway to work on details. It's probably the same here. We're just at the tip of the iceberg with exploring the nature of Angels and Demons. Of course they're going to be very human-like. > > I do like the possibilty that angels are shaped for maintain the symphony > until they are made "self-aware" which immediately requires a seperation > from the whole of existance. Who said that, Emily Dresner? There's a > certain sadness when you realize that in order to accomplish your goals you > must be seperated from others. It's the connection versus autonomy > paradox: in order to really get anything done, you must autonomy, but in > order to know _what_ to do, you must have connection to others. Not I. I said no such thing. I don't even think I thought it. :) I do have some thoughts on the Hegemony of Angelic Existance, though. Even as an Angel as an individual entity you aren't really seperated from all the other Angels at all. You're connected through the Symphony. All Angels all share the same 'song', even if it happens to be Mozart's Requiem. The sad part is when they Fall. Then they really become disconnected. - - Em ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #485 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.