From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Thu Nov 27 21:26:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA02825 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 21:26:11 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id VAA16301 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 21:18:38 -0600 Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 21:18:38 -0600 Message-Id: <199711280318.VAA16301@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #489 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Thursday, November 27 1997 Volume 01 : Number 489 In this digest: Re: IN> Books (Was Celestial Names) Re: IN> TOP50 IN> The Nature of Hell Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] Re: IN> The Nature of Hell Re: IN> Haagenti and Belial Re: IN> Haagenti and Belial RE: IN> Seed : Casting Call IN> Pagan Victory Re: IN> Celestial names and other questions Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] IN> Kiriotate and Nominous Corpus IN> (Various) Re: IN> (Various) Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 Re: IN> Celestial names and other questions IN> Kyrio hit points Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:26:30 -0800 From: The Saint of Killers Subject: Re: IN> Books (Was Celestial Names) > People might want to look at "Forbidden Rites" by Richard Kieckhefer. It's > an edition of and introduction on a demon-summoning manual from the > fifteenth century, and it has names and appearances for some demons, > including Furfur. It also has reproductions of all the magic circles you > have to draw, and the edition is *complete*... It's also 15UKP, and in > paperback. (Oh yes, and it's a serious scholarly work, and *he* doesn't need > to include disclaimers.) As long as we're discussing books... On a less serious note, the book Who In Hell? has a fairly complete listing of demons and their domains. (It also contains some celebrities that the authors feel are currently in Hell.) It's not scholarly, but it's pretty accurate. I generally use it as my first reference, because it's not nearly as cumbersome as the Dictionary of Angels. (Which is good for finding out actual sources and such, but a real bitch to read.) Who In Hell? is written by Sean Kelly and Rosemary Rogers and is probably in your humor section. Right by it will be Saints Preserve Us, which is a great listing of saints with an extremely amusing spin. My favorite is their listing for Saint Patrick: "Patrick wasn't Irish; he was Welsh-Italian. His name wasn't Patrick, it was Succat. He wasn't the first Christian missionary sent to Ireland - that was Saint Palladius. And there were never any snakes in the country to begin with. But aside from that, everything you know about Patrick is true." Unfortunately, it doesn't mention Saint Paula the Bearded. (Carmelite nun who spontaniously grew a beard when some men were considering using her for an act of carnal sin.) Actually, I've not found any books that mention Saint Paula the Bearded. I'm beginning to think I made her up someplace deep within my twisted little mind. sok ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:40:23 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> TOP50 > > obIN: Anyone know the name of the Demon whose word is spam? (and > > I'm not talking the food product. Let's face it, somebody > > infernal has got to be to blame for this little gem ... :) ) > > Malphas. What other little piece of almost completely harmless, > easily deletable mail can get people so hot and bothered and at each > other's throats so fast? It's like getting hit with water. You get sprayed with a little, and you don't mind all that much. You get hosed down by some putz who's watering his lawn... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:08:09 EST From: Neel Krishnaswami Subject: IN> The Nature of Hell Emily Dresner's[*] writeup of infernal politics has prompted me to dig up my notes on the metaphysical nature of Hell from the perspective of Heaven. It probably won't be useful for you IN-backwards types, since it is so heavily slanted towards an "omnipotent God" outlook, but hopefully it will be food for thought. [*] I hope I got the name spelled correctly. If not, apologies. - ---- The Existence of Hell Many young angels and souls new-come to Heaven ask about the existence of Hell. How, they ask, can a benevolent God permit the existence of a place of eternal suffering? The answer (according to Heaven) is that Hell's existence is a necessary consequence of free will. Free will isn't simply the ability to decide what you will do independent of all else; it is the ability to freely accept or reject divine Grace. In order for this to be a meaningful choice, God must honor the decision of the individual. And this is what Hell is: a rejection of the divine. The nature of the celestial plane is to turn metaphysical condition into geography, and Hell is simply what happens when God ceases to intervene. This is not necessarily eternal torture; Hell is exactly what its inhabitants make of it. They lack the possibility of divine transcendence, but that is their choice; Dominic is the first to note that the gates of Hell are locked from the inside. (I more or less stole this whole from C.S. Lewis. Good stuff.) It is because Hell's current rulers have turned to rapine and slaughter that it is so bad -- there are tales that in Lucifer's first great council after the Fall, there was a faction of demons that argued that Infernal legions should seek to turn Hell into a new Paradise, better than God's Creation, so as to to prove His error to Him. They lost that debate, and instead Kobal convinced the Prince of Darkness to mock and curse God. (Kobal is one of the most frightening Demon Princes in my game -- his is the laughter of despair.) (This is a distorted borrowing from _Paradise Lost_; Mammon was the architect of Heaven, who rebelled in order to build great new cities. In my game, he is rather upset at the way things have worked out, and stopped actively fighting the War around the turn of the 19th century. Marc and David are former Servitors of his, and have spent the last two hundred years working to get their one-time boss to Redeem. The writeup in H&H is nothing like the way I see him. Not that it matters; like Mephistopheles he's background -- the 26 superiors in the main book are as much as I can handle.) Angelic Attitudes Most of the archangels acknowledge the need for Hell's existence, but after that things get confused. The main faction is led by Yves while a few dissenters are led by Michael. The faction led by Yves claims that while the existence of Hell is required, it is not necessary that Hell contain any souls. These angels seek the ultimate salvation of absolutely everyone, and are generally the most sympathetic towards demons trying to Redeem. They also tend to be some of the most active angels in trying to influence the course of human affairs. (Novalis, Marc, Laurence, and Blandine are the other major members of this faction.) The other group is lead by Michael. Actually, it's just Michael, Eli and Janus; and Michael is usually the only one who shows up for Seraphim Council meetings. These three archangels have a much more limited set of aims. They hold that it's foolish to believe that humans can have free will while simultaneously believing that no human will ever honestly choose Hell. In their view, this contradicts the entire history of the species. As a result, their preferred strategy is to stop the demons from corrupting mankind and otherwise letting humans find their fates and destinies for themselves. Actually, this implies more ideological uniformity among the three dissenters than is warranted. Michael wants to kill all the demons and then bring the Host back to Heaven, so that the Symphony will be completely free of all celestial interference. Janus prefers a stalemate between Heaven and Hell, and Eli just doesn't care anymore. (Ask if you want to know why.) Game Consequences (this is different from H&H) One of the results of this explanation is that when a divine intervention is rolled in Hell, no divine action occurs. Instead, the roll is treated as an ordinary roll of 2 with a check digit of 1. The only weirdness to the roll is that the character who rolled the intervention will, for a brief instant, get the impression that God is silently witnessing the proceedings. Angels in Hell automatically gain a note of dissonance upon entry. They are forcing themselves away from God, and this violates their natures. They also lose the ability to use their natural resonances, and the intervention rule above applies to them. - ---- Neel Krishnaswami neelk@alum.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:42:18 -0700 (MST) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] > *ALL* of Valefor's servitors know whether he's really Janus or not? > Wouldn't that be a tremendous security leak? One disaffected Personally, I don't think Janus and Valefor are really CERTAIN... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:33:17 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> The Nature of Hell > Emily Dresner's[*] writeup of infernal politics has prompted me to dig up my > notes on the metaphysical nature of Hell from the perspective of Heaven. It > probably won't be useful for you IN-backwards types, since it is so heavily > slanted towards an "omnipotent God" outlook, but hopefully it will be food > for thought. > > [*] I hope I got the name spelled correctly. If not, apologies. Huzzah, you got it right. Check that out. Mmmm.... Playing IN Backwards tends to mean that the rules get "tweaked" in several interesting and annoying fashions. Not to say that the rulebook gets tossed, just that things are a bit more blacker then they should be. Just to make a clarification. > ---- > The Existence of Hell > > Many young angels and souls new-come to Heaven ask about the existence of > Hell. How, they ask, can a benevolent God permit the existence of a place of > eternal suffering? > [snip] > > And this is what Hell is: a rejection of the divine. The nature of the > celestial plane is to turn metaphysical condition into geography, and Hell > is simply what happens when God ceases to intervene. This is not necessarily > eternal torture; Hell is exactly what its inhabitants make of it. They lack > the possibility of divine transcendence, but that is their choice; Dominic > is the first to note that the gates of Hell are locked from the inside. > I thought I should just mention this, because it made me think of it. This is a character's perspective, not my own, and not the Truth in my game. The perspective is that Evil is a Lack of the Divine, and the more Evil there is, the less God there is in the world. If Evil takes over the World, then God, and Heaven, will be out of business. Fatality, Lucifer Wins. Out of http://www-personal.umich.edu/~zenith/in-nomine/el1.html: I shrugged, and put my spoon down. "It's not that difficult, really, when you think about it. Other then the fact that no one ever sees this God guy, well . . . " I played with the salt shaker. "Look at it this way. What is evil? Well, some say evil is an expression of selfishness, but I disagree. I've seen too many people billed as evil do selfless acts. I believe that evil is simply a definite lack of the presence of God. Evil is the void that is created when there's no divine." I paused, and he motioned for me to go on with a particularly well buttered crust of bread. "Here's this God guy," I continued. "He's billed as omnibenevolent, right? So being all good and understanding only good He could only make a world he understood, which was filled completely with good as well, whatever the definition of good is today. And before man knew between good and evil, all was much like an episode of Full House with less clothing." I let go of the salt shaker and started to gesture instead with my fork. "But now the world isn't a good happy warm fuzzy place. The Fall came and went. There are many more demons then angels. And signs from this nebulous God guy are few and far between. "The lack of God abounds. I'm, well . . . " I leaned in a bit forward. "I have all the markings to suggest that I am not exactly, you know, human. Although the horns and the green skin are often indicators of something going hideously wrong, the fact that I have to ascend from Hell every morning to get my coffee and bagel is the kicker. I'm a demon, man. I'm evil. And therefore, by my own admission, my own existence clearly shows that God is severely lacking in the existence department." - - Em, Still the Demon of IN Backwards, who finally got to flip through Heaven and Hell. Current Quote: How can you say, "We are wise and the law of the LORD is with us," when, in fact, the false pens of the scribes has made it into a lie? - Jeremiah 8:8 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 00:34:57 -0500 From: "Ehrbar" Subject: Re: IN> Haagenti and Belial >> So, in Canon, which way is it? Non-canonly, I already plan >> to go with the original rulebook, because that plays into >> the extended writeup I'm giving Haagenti. > >Which you are going to post to the list when you're done, right? >Nudge, nudge... Of course :) AND, I'm going to send an editied version of my DV Michigan posts. AND, I'm eventually going to finish and post the Archangel of Redemption I've been working on off and on for three months. I've just got to get it all done. I'll probably finish it during Christmas break. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 00:41:55 -0500 From: "Ehrbar" Subject: Re: IN> Haagenti and Belial >When I was writing up all that STUFF yesterday *postpost* I occasionally >found myself utterly baffled at some of the attitudes of the Demon >Princes. Some of them just don't make any sense at all, and aren't >exactly explained. That was one of them. > >I have three theories on why this is: > >A) Belial is outright hostile to all of the Princes of Shal-Mari in >general save Lilith, since everyone loves her. Or owes her. Maybe they >made a bunch of rude comments about his clothing style one day or >something. "Dahlink," Andre said, "but your HAIR." Or maybe he simply >sees them all as weak. Haagenti is just returning the hostility. > >B) Haagenti hates bullies of all sorts, and it's possible that, as a >familiar, he got screwed over by Belial or Belial's people. Belial is >just too big to CHOMP, but he might be tasty with some horseradish >somewhere down the line. > >C) Belial might have gotten into a fight with Kobal at some point, and >fighting with Kobal means fighting with Haagenti. Or, of course, the similarities pointed out by the author of The Marches might be the source of the conflict. My writeup basically says that Haagenti isn't just a normal ambitious Prince, but that his Word makes him a glutton for everything...including power. And that the slice of the pie he wants next is Belial's. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 01:50:55 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: RE: IN> Seed : Casting Call >Nybbas has a space on his prime-time network for a new regular feature slot! >Naturally, a number of his subordinates want to push their brilliant ideas >to fill this slot, and are backstabbing each other with glee. Various >Princes would like a film or series advantageous to themselves or >disadvantageous to an enemy to go in this slot. The PCs may be servants of >Nybbas, inhabitants of Shal-Mari, or poor fools who have been blackmailed, >tempted, dragooned or ordered into interfering, either to help one project >or to damage another. Ooooooh, neat! I'm running a Soldier thingie; maybe... hmmmm... having the after-effects of this in the campaign might clutter things up and bit too much. - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I saw a monster come with speed, Its face of grimmest green. On human beings it used to feed, Most dreadful to be seen. -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 02:00:52 -0600 From: John L Veazey Subject: IN> Pagan Victory I believe I remember that there were supposed to be 6 parts to the Pagan Victory outline, but I remember only the first part. Have I missed the rest or have they not been written and sent yet? It's another tidbit upon which I wish to gorge myself. Vz -- the ever lurking - -- John L Veazey (Vz) | Warning: In case of accidental overdose, veazey@ebicom.net | seek professional assistance or contact jlv2@ra.msstate.edu | Poison Control Center Immediately. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 08:54:51 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial names and other questions OK, a bit about the Hebrew behind malakhim ('kh' is supposed to be the throaty 'ch' sound, not a K). Stop me if I get into lecture mode, I've had a rough day in the labs ;-) ;-) Hebrew words are all made up of a three letter 'root', so different words can share the same root but have different vowels. Usually they'll have related meanings (eg. the words for 'large' and 'to grow' come from the same root). In this case the root is M-L-KH, the hebrew for king is 'melekh' and 'malakh' actually means servant or messenger but comes from the same root. I've heard this explained as meaning that it is the duty of a king to be a servant to his people (but that might be viewed a s a bit flimsy ;) ) -- I guess that whatever the hebrew for throne is probably also comes from the same root, but they are all different words. Actually the word for salt ('melakh') is also from the same root so I'd guess that in biblical times people paid a tithe of salt to the king or something. ie. I wouldn't translate malakhim as 'kings', it does mean servants. Ignore the Yiddish in this case, they do wild and wonderful things with hebrew vowels! *grin* Also Baalzebub means literally 'lord of the flies'. jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:17:45 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] >>Thanks ;-) Love Kobals pointless senior heirarchy *grin* Emily Dresner wrote: >No problem, although SOMEONE on the List owes me big. :) OK! Hey, I have this great new prototype to hand if you want to sneak a copy. Cute little mobile phone, plays Spice Girls songs instead of ringing[1], and you can send email on it too -- of course you really need 17 fingers to be able to do that.... and it doesn't work in Basingstoke (yet). But for you.... >I've done extensive work on Kobal's people for various reasons. They're >a very weird, pragmatic group never without their exploding chewing gum. Weeeell... here's a plot seed that occurred to me last night... to give them a chance to get their own back ;) Summary: Recently Nybbas got a little carried away on the card tables in Shal-Mari and wound up agreeing to a crazy bet with Kobal to straighten up his account. The bet is that he will promote a newly fledged demon to be his first Duke and that if said Duke can survive 6 months in that position, Kobal will wipe out the debt and give the Prince of the Media first choice of any of his own unworded servitors (this is a reasonable deal -- Kobal has some very competent unworded servitors) -- if the Duke doesn't survive then Nybbas has to cede one of his own unworded servitors to Dark Humour. Notes: Nybbas is playing to win and his servants are ordered to protect and co-operate with the new 'duke' who must be seen to come out of any and all situations smelling of roses (they're good spin-doctors but this could be their toughest task yet). Kobal is playing to lose, the more unqualified dukes there are in hell who don't look completely useless, the more idiotic the entire hierarchy looks. He sends servitors to watch the proceedings and try to counter any other outside influences on the bet. Asmodeus not only wants the 'duke' to fail mightily but it would be an added bonus if it went renegade (this would give him an excuse to say that princes who promote new demons are not only acting stupidly but also treacherously. In addition to sending some demons to observe the proceedings (and try to throw spanners in the works) he also sends in a team to act as agents provocateurs -- of course if they are caught doing it then they're toast. Only the princes and their most senior advisors are aware that this is just a 6-month bet. The 'duke' itself is bright enough to be feeling very very nervous; with reason, when the time is up it will probably be destroyed unless it has done something extremely impressive. Generally most of hell's younger demons are rooting for the 'duke', whereas the old ones want to see the whippersnapper put in its place, regardless of what their princes have told them to do. jo [1] Would it upset anyone to know this was an idea which actually did come up in a meeting? (I really do design mobile phones as my day job) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 01:56:35 -0800 From: Stefano Ponti Subject: IN> Kiriotate and Nominous Corpus When a kiriotate sings a Nominous Corpus how is this applied to his multi-vessel? Could all vessel use the Nominous? only one ? only one at time ? Thanks Stud "They say there's a heaven for those who will wait Some say it's better but I say it ain't I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints Sinners are much more fun You know that only the good die young" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:22:45 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> (Various) Kingsley Lintz wrote: >> BTW Lawrence told me he resents the purple tutu crack.He does not prance, >> he gracefully jumps and he prefers strawberry pink and pistachio green. > With his coloring? Egads. We've GOT to get that boy to a fashion >consultant. (Why do you think he favours vessels with dark hair and eyes? Man, that colouring can get away with any bright colour! :-) Its those pastel shades we have to keep him away from... and egads, the paisley dinner-shirts *wince* ) Emily Dresner wrote: >I work in an enviroment where there are two seperate entities, what people >WANT, and what people NEED. Wow, imagining all those Lilim of Technology working on technical specs even as I type, or the marketing Lilim who work for the Media *shiver* >Additionally, there is a built in montior for "fairness". The resonance >for a Lilim is for a) Equality in a deal and b) Freedom that exists >outside the deal itself. A compromise posed by a Lilim is not going >to make everyone happy by any stretch of the imagination, but it's >certainly going to be fair and evenly dealt on both sides. It's unique in >a way that doesn't exist anywhere else. OK, I think I see what you are driving at now ;-) What I am wondering is whether simply knowing people's real needs is enough to assign Lilim as brilliant negotiators (I'm sure the old ones are -- as you say they have plenty of experience). I can imagine some meetings where all the participants come to the meeting with the simple need to ensure that nobody else gets what /they/ need out of the deal. Also, how fair is it really? Sometimes needs of equal priority might be result in a blatently unfair resolution (even if those involved are equally happy/ unhappy with it). Basically I'm still not sure, but I can see how they'd have an objectivity that no other demon in hell could match. (I guess if you really want a fair deal in heaven, you need some of Dominics people at the table as well as Marcs, although this might be a bit intimidating for everyone else), Agree totally about bright lilim of trade being scary things -- I wonder if Marc sends out recruiting squads, and whether other archangels try to sabotage them ;-) >If he knew Valefor was >Janus, Asmodeus would be working actively to get the guy removed and >Valefor would have everyone as "enemy", except maybe Kobal who would be >too happy to do anything about it. (But since he is probably responsible for starting that rumour in the first place...) >If Asmodeus knew they were >seperate, then he wouldn't have much of an excuse to be after the guy, >except out of general spite. *pause* Well, pure spite works just fine for me. What do you reckon, Em? ;) jo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 10:11:25 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> (Various) > >I work in an enviroment where there are two seperate entities, what > people > >WANT, and what people NEED. > > Wow, imagining all those Lilim of Technology working on technical specs > even as I type, or the marketing Lilim who work for the Media *shiver* Luckily for you, neither Nybbas nor Dr. Vapula have trouble getting Lilim. Granted, Dr. Vapula far less then Nybbas, but the QUALITY is decent. I thought of that too, and grinned merrily. > OK, I think I see what you are driving at now ;-) What I am wondering is > whether simply knowing people's real needs is enough to assign Lilim as > brilliant negotiators (I'm sure the old ones are -- as you say they have > plenty of experience). If they are old enough, or have the inclination to do so. Lilim sort of do whatever they like when not under Geas. If they don't get anything out of it, they're out of there. > I can imagine some meetings where all the > participants come to the meeting with the simple need to ensure that > nobody else gets what /they/ need out of the deal. At which point the Lilim would say something "unfriendly, unhelpful and wholy uncooperative". :) > Also, how fair is it > really? Sometimes needs of equal priority might be result in a blatently > unfair resolution (even if those involved are equally happy/ unhappy > with it). Basically I'm still not sure, but I can see how they'd have an > objectivity that no other demon in hell could match. I'm sure it happens, and that the negotiators throw up their hands, look at their Princes, and demand raises. I never said they were 100% successful, but getting into a situation where everyone wants to screw everyone else and that's ALL they Need is pretty rare. People and Celestials alike have a wide range of Needs at any one time, some which are more pressing then others. Drawing the other Needs out and putting them on the table for discussion is what ultimately serves for successful negotiations. And no one said a fair or balanced deal made everyone happy. > > (I guess if you really want a fair deal in heaven, you need some of > Dominics people at the table as well as Marcs, although this might be a > bit intimidating for everyone else), > > Agree totally about bright lilim of trade being scary things -- I wonder > if Marc sends out recruiting squads, and whether other archangels try to > sabotage them ;-) I would say... yes. I would also say that Michael secretly recruits Lilim as well, for the very same reason. > > >If he knew Valefor was > >Janus, Asmodeus would be working actively to get the guy removed and > >Valefor would have everyone as "enemy", except maybe Kobal who would be > >too happy to do anything about it. > > (But since he is probably responsible for starting that rumour in the > first place...) Well, yeah. "Boss, will you please STOP SPREADING RANDOM RUMORS? We have three guys down here who are claiming to be Angels of Theft in the front room." > > >If Asmodeus knew they were > >seperate, then he wouldn't have much of an excuse to be after the guy, > >except out of general spite. > > *pause* > Well, pure spite works just fine for me. What do you reckon, Em? ;) Oh god help me, I'm about to quote from the sourcebook. pg 180, main sourcebook. "But most of Hell's more austere royalty - Asmodeus, Baal, even Kronos - think there's something terribly wrong and dangerous about Valefor." Enemies are bad. Hostility is fine, Hostility = pure spite. But enemies imply that not only are the angels out to get you, but so are certain demons. This means Azzie's people show NO MERCY to Renegades of Theft. This means that Kronos's people undermine any of Theft's recruited soldiers. What Asmodeus feels for Valefor is not pure spite. It's hatred. He literally hates this guy more then Kobal, even when the Kobalites are breaking into Hades and wreaking random happy havoc. If Asmodeus didn't think there were grounds to have this guy removed, he would just be another "Everyone Else" in the spite column. - - Em, Demon of Playing IN Backwards. Use my stuff! Give me Essence! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:25:59 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] - ---------- > From: Hart, Joanna > To: 'in_nomine-l@lists.io.com' > Subject: Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] > Date: Thursday, November 27, 1997 4:17 AM > > >>Thanks ;-) Love Kobals pointless senior heirarchy *grin* > > Emily Dresner wrote: > >No problem, although SOMEONE on the List owes me big. :) > > OK! Hey, I have this great new prototype to hand if you want to sneak a > copy. Cute little mobile phone, plays Spice Girls songs instead of > ringing[1], and you can send email on it too -- of course you really > need 17 fingers to be able to do that.... and it doesn't work in > Basingstoke (yet). But for you.... > This must be the work of Kobal. The Spice Girls? Excuse me while a suppress a shudder. Dammit, I can never suppress a shudder when the *Spice Girls* are involved. What scares me about this is that this idea is somewhere out there floating around. > > >I've done extensive work on Kobal's people for various reasons. > They're > >a very weird, pragmatic group never without their exploding chewing > gum. > > Weeeell... here's a plot seed that occurred to me last night... to give > them a chance to get their own back ;) > I really like the plot seed. :) I have a question: The PC's in my campaign are angelic (I'm playing forwards :) ) . . . Have any ideas how to get them involved in the plot? > > > jo > > [1] Would it upset anyone to know this was an idea which actually did > come up in a meeting? (I really do design mobile phones as my day job) Say it ain't so, Joanna. Say it ain't so. :) Geez, be gentle with an old man. These shocks can kill me. Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, The Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, The Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:42:18 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] - ---------- > From: Kingsley Lintz > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] > Date: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 9:42 PM > > > > *ALL* of Valefor's servitors know whether he's really Janus or not? > > Wouldn't that be a tremendous security leak? One disaffected > Personally, I don't think Janus and Valefor are really CERTAIN... You want to know something, King? I had a very similar thought. Maybe Janus/Valefor suffers from Multiple Personality Disorder, perhaps some form of Discord. Janus and Valefor are aware of one another (enough to be each other's primary enemies), but they don't even realize that they're actually the *same* entity. Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, The Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, The Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 10:59:36 -0600 From: Corey Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 At 04:04 PM 11/26/97 -0600, you wrote: >Funny, that isn't how I see it at all. God sees, IMHO, all the infinite >multipaths of maybe, all the way to the end of every one. He doesn't get >bored because it.... amuses [?] Him to see what choices we [humans] >actually do end up taking. This also explains why bad things happen with >a good God... in order to set up a maze that leads to the best of all >possible worlds, branchings that allow such things as childhood cancer, >the Fall, and the Apple also had to be built into the maze, and we took >[or were lead down, depending on whether you blame the serpent for >tempting Eve with the Apple, or blame Eve for choosing to listen to the >serpent {similar comments about Eve, the Apple, and Adam}] a less than >optimal path to the maze's end. Either that or God is a GM improv-ing >wildly as His players [us humans] make unexpected choices. Needless to >say, [but I will say it anyway] the all-knowing maze architect is a much >more reassuring God to worship. But _if_ God is truly omniscient and omnipotent, then he must be held responsible for the evil in the world, as well as the good. To continue with your example, he created and set in motion the the hedge maze. Therefore he is responsible for all the things in the maze. In case you can't tell, I'm a big Preacher fan. Corey - --"I see the end in every beginning. I hear the last word echo in the first. I do not desire, or dream, or destroy. I do not despair, or delight. I know." -Destiny. "Destiny: A Chronicle of Death's Foretold" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:45:54 -0600 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 > > At 04:04 PM 11/26/97 -0600, tom t. wrote: > >Funny, that isn't how I see it at all. God sees, IMHO, all the infinite > >multipaths of maybe, all the way to the end of every one. He doesn't get > >bored because it.... amuses [?] Him to see what choices we [humans] > >actually do end up taking. This also explains why bad things happen with > >a good God... in order to set up a maze that leads to the best of all > >possible worlds, branchings that allow such things as childhood cancer, > >the Fall, and the Apple also had to be built into the maze, and we took > >[or were lead down, depending on whether you blame the serpent for > >tempting Eve with the Apple, or blame Eve for choosing to listen to the > >serpent {similar comments about Eve, the Apple, and Adam}] a less than > >optimal path to the maze's end. Either that or God is a GM improv-ing > >wildly as His players [us humans] make unexpected choices. Needless to > >say, [but I will say it anyway] the all-knowing maze architect is a much > >more reassuring God to worship. Corey: > But _if_ God is truly omniscient and omnipotent, then he must be held > responsible for the evil in the world, as well as the good. To continue > with your example, he created and set in motion the the hedge maze. > Therefore he is responsible for all the things in the maze. > > In case you can't tell, I'm a big Preacher fan. > Well, I am an XMan fan myself, who believes in the dream of Prof. Xavier, so you know I am a hopelessly cockeyed optimist right from the start. ;-] tom timberlake ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:08:14 +0000 From: "David Chart" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial names and other questions - --On Wed, Nov 26, 1997 1:13 pm -0400 gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > You're kidding me. Furfur is the name of an actual, historical demon? I > thought the good people at SJG were just having a bad imagination day when > they came up with him. I was a little surprised as well, since I came across the historical reference after the IN name. I will chase up his description. (Actually, he may have been in the "demon catalogue" part of the book, and if so I won't have the ritual.) Amazon.com lists the book, but apparently it hasn't been published over the water yet. David Chart Seraph of Destiny ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 07:44:35 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: IN> Kyrio hit points G'day. I remember this being debated a while ago, but don't recall what the canon verdict was. With the rules for the HP of mortal changing in Night Music, what does this mean for the HP of mortals possessed by Kyrio/Shedim? - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia Look at me mum, squatting pissed in the tube hole At Tottenham Court Road I just come out of the Ship talking to the most blonde I ever met Shouting lager lager lager lager Shouting lager lager lager lager UNDERWORLD, "Born Slippy" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 22:15:12 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Kinney Subject: Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Hart, Joanna wrote: > copy. Cute little mobile phone, plays Spice Girls songs instead of >[...] > [1] Would it upset anyone to know this was an idea which actually did > come up in a meeting? (I really do design mobile phones as my day job) > So, you say you actively serve both Kobal and Nybbas...? alberich@iglou.com | Mark Kinney | http://www.iglou.com/nations "Greenland is a cold, barren land, a land that bears no green, Where there's ice and snow and the whale-fishes blow, and the sun is seldom seen" -- "Greenland Whale Fisheries" (Traditional) ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #489 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.