From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Dec 1 10:40:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA24464 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:40:06 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA00199 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:26:42 -0600 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:26:42 -0600 Message-Id: <199712011626.KAA00199@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #492 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, December 1 1997 Volume 01 : Number 492 In this digest: IN> Theology (and Seraphim) IN> (Pagan Victory) Interlude 1 Re: IN> (Pagan Victory) Interlude 1 Re: IN> (Pagan Victory) Interlude 1 Re: IN> (Pagan Victory) Interlude 1 IN> [DV] Business as Usual Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] IN> Kronos Question Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] Re: IN> Theology Re: IN> Superiors' Notes: Nybbas, Vapula,, Kobal, and Andrealphus Re: IN> [DV] Business as Usual IN> How to get a head in advertising!! (plot seed) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 18:02:30 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> Theology (and Seraphim) >>>OK, fair enough. It was canon for a long, long time though.<<< So was an Earth-centered universe. Just remember that there have _always_ been Christians who didn't necessarily accept every doctrine out of Rome. It's just been fairly recently that (a) viable alternative theologies have existed and been able to spread, and (b) that we'd have a way of knowing about them. (We know a little bit about some Christian sects that broke off and followed "heretical" views that many Christians consider reasonable today, such as the Cathars...all of them were suppressed when the RCC was the only real Christian power. We have no way of knowing how many Christians, including Roman Catholics, may have actually preached toleration and a more benevolent view of God than we traditionally get from medieval sources, and simply were never recorded in history because they didn't have enough influence to get noticed.) >>>IMO, Christianity (to overgeneralise) has only recently decided that attempting to get along with other religions is worthwhile.<<< See above. And to be fair, Christianity was always able to "get along" with Jews and Muslims and even pagans when it was convenient, and vice versa. Most of the religious antagonism was really driven by political/economic concerns (the Europeans and the Muslims were competing for control of Mediterranean trade, for example, and Jews were easy to hate because the upper classes usually owed them money -- exiling all the Jews was an easy way to get out of your debts...), and religious dogma was more a justification than a _reason_ for the conflict. >>>Thanks. It makes more sense now. However, Laurence must therefore be a fairly 'modern' Christian, in that he knows full well that non-Christian's _are_ saved, regularly. It is hard to reconcile him supporting Catholicism both in the 13th Century, and now.<<< He knows that mortals don't have to be Christian to go to Heaven. But he believes that Christianity is the BEST way for the balance of power to shift in Heaven's favor...that if Christianity prevails, more people will be led to Heaven. He probably figures God sent Jesus to give the angels an edge, and that Heaven should take advantage of it. >>>That's a close run thing. Certainly IMC, you could never get an answer to a 'fundamental' question. If you run it your way, Seraphs might get stuck in cases where the subject is straight misinformed. Obviously I'm happy for each GM to run it however he thinks best. It just takes a lot of thought beforehand.<<< There's no way to make an ironclad rule that doesn't require some GM discretion. Seraphim can always come up with bothersome questions that threaten to reveal things the GM doesn't think should be revealed. A general rule of thumb, though, is that the person questioned must be _capable_ of knowing the answer for him to have a chance of letting the Seraph tap into the Symphonic Truth. So asking random people questions about things about which they have no clue and don't even know what you're talking about, hoping that 1 time in 6 the Symphony will chime in with an answer out of the blue, is a waste of time (and an abuse of an angelic resonance, so saying God or the Symphony will just slap the presumptuous Seraph down is fine too). >>>Why hasn't Dominic asked Janus this question?<<< Maybe he has, but having satisfied himself with the answer, he's not about to let LESSER beings question another Archangel! Maybe he has and Janus said "Buzz off, twerp." Maybe he doesn't think this is the case. Maybe asking another Archangel outright "Are you a Demon Prince?" is something even Dominic would balk at. (Janus is older and much more powerful than Dominic, and even Dominic might think twice about offending such a capricious being...) Maybe Janus won't stay in one place long enough to be questioned. Maybe Dominic's resonance isn't completely reliable against other Superiors. Maybe there are other reasons. Maybe it's all a big false lead. >>>Umm... At risk of causing offence (I will accept correction), both Judaism and Islam consider worship and respect far more important than love for God. Christianity is unique in this way.<<< All three religions say you should worship, respect AND love God. The exact order of importance varies in each religion, according to time and place and the particular sect. >>>Don't say that too loudly. MML&J are divinely inspired scripture (at least, I have always had to accept this to discuss them with committed Christians). They are not wrong. They might be misinterpreted.<<< Again, SOME Christians believe the Bible is the inerrant, literal word of God. Many do not. Most Muslims believe the same thing of the Quran. Either way, both books are still subject to interpretation, since even Biblical and Quranic inerrantists don't agree with each other on what many verses mean (and they all tend to say "Of COURSE our interpretation is _obviously_ the correct one....") - -David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 15:45:54 -0600 (CST) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: IN> (Pagan Victory) Interlude 1 Sorry for the delay, but here's the next piece. Expect two or three more in the next 24-48 hours. Pagan Victory: Interlude 1 =========================================================== (Author's Note. I know that in In Nomine canon, _Heaven and Hell_ lists Crazy Horse as living in the Groves, but that didn't sound right to me. It is different here.) Eagle soared quietly over what remained of the Hunting Grounds. The land was faring somewhat better in recent years, but was still shrinking at a steady, unstoppable rate. Wakan had stopped communicating with his children long ago and the rest of the people's cultures and spirits threatened to join him soon in silence. Scanning the ground, he did not see the one for whom he was searching, but a familiar form below looked up as the shadow passed over him, inviting Eagle down to join him. Eagle glided down to the ground, perching in a withered sapling near the fire. Crazy Horse set aside the knife he had been sharpening. "I am on an important errand, Crazy Horse, so I cannot speak with you long. What do you wish to say.?S "Many have come to me asking that we again search the Earth for the spirit of my cousin, Black Elk. I, too, would like to look again for him. He must surely be there still and his spirit would aid us greatly." "I am sorry, but there is no time now. Heaven and Hell are too far along in their preparations for battle; we can spare no energy for this. After we have cleared out the usurpers, we can find him, but I grieve to tell you that it must wait for now." Crazy Horse grunted noncommittally and rubbed his back with one arm; the bayonet wound had began bleeding more heavily recently. The bird shifted on the branch. "I am sorry, but there is no time. Have you seen Little Crow recently? I have need of him." The warrior resumed the sharpening of his blade. "I saw him earlier walk beyond those hills with Dull Knife." Eagle gave a cry of thanks as he leapt into the sky. =========================================================== "I have no desire to speak to the spirits of the Wasichu. They lie as easily as their followers and their treaties are no good," spoke Ta-oya-te-duta. "These are not the gods of the wasichu. These are the spirits of another group of people. They have no love of the wasichu's God either." "Eagle, they are all wasichu and shall all try to take what little we have left. They will not aid us; they will not bring any cannon we have earned to defend us." "No, my friend. They care for what is best for their people, the Japanese and do not wish to concern themselves with the land of our people or others. They have not suffered under Heaven and Hell as greatly as we or other spirits have, but they understand that understand that they may be in danger of being displaced or destroyed like our people. I want you to come and convince the uncertain among them." Little Crow sighed and rearranged his shirt so that the sleeves covered his shriveled wrists and forearms. =========================================================== "...and that is how the wasichu and their god lied to me and my people to take their land through misworded treaties and guns when the treaties failed. My own death came as I was gathering supplies for my family to live among the tribes of the plains when two wasichu saw me picking raspberries with my son and shot me for the twenty-five dollar bounty the state had put on all Dakota scalps. At least my child escaped death at that time." The old man stared at the ground, his tale stirring up painful memories again. The Kami of the Sun sat upon her throne considering the words of the man Inari, Kami of Rice, and the spirit called Eagle had brought before her. Kaguya-hime smiled triumphantly. "See, Amaterasu? His story provides evidence of what I have said. To throw off the yoke of the angels and demons, the nations must be united." Amaterasu shook her head. "No, we must unite by choice if possible. The alternative has already proven itself ...distasteful..." The Kami of the Moon's face flushed red. "My previous campaign suffered from mistakes and infernal influence, but I will not let that happen again. The giri of the nation, however, is too important..." The ruler of the kami raised her hand slowly, as if the weight of her responsibility for her Japan as a literal burden upon her shoulders. "No. That path is not acceptable. The need for a unified people in Asia does not require such drastic action now. We must cooperate so that all of us may be free to nurture our charges." Yamato nodded to itself in the corner. It had not forgotten the pain and misery Kaguya-hime's previous attempt to unite southeastern Asia under Japan's banner had ended. Yamato still suffered the intense pain left by Fat Man and Little Boy. Yuki-no-Onna sat unperturbed, her cold eyes boring into Amaterasu mercilessly. Amaterasu tried to ignore the Snow Woman's look. "I cannot afford to let this opportunity pass. Inari believes them when they say that the Celestial Armageddon is coming soon and surely a Kitsune would detect any trickery in their plans. If this is our best hope, then I must take it," the ruler of the Kami thought to herself. "We will aid the gaigami in their efforts. We will not be able to send every kami to fight. Not all are warriors and the defense of Japan herself must be our first priority, but we will do what we can." She could feel a subtle shift in the air of the throne room as the other kami reacted to her decision. "I do not like to do these things, but we must have a leader and she must do what is best for Japan." =========================================================== Black Elk sat quietly under the giant trees of the Grove, wondering at the increased pitch in the training of the angels and their greater distancing from himself than usual. "I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised. The Great Spirit has supported the wasichu as these spirits do. I must still make them nervous though I have accepted my role in this world." Even the tree had been more cryptic than usual lately, answering his questions as to the war to come with only veiled hints that the angels were going to go remove the last of the wicked spirits who harmed man. A soft rustling above caught his attention. He looked up in time to see a dark spirit drift down next to him, gliding on dark purple wings. Such spirits always made him nervous, even after all these years although he could not say why. "Janus, Archangel of the Wind would like for you to climb to the canopy and speak to him soon," spoke the Malakim with the faintest hint of humor in his voice. "Of course, I would be honored," said Black Elk. "Perhaps he will tell me what is truly happening," the shaman thought to himself. As if hearing the Lakota's thoughts, the dark angel chuckled softly to himself as he leapt back towards the trees, scattering two startled Ofanim of Fire caught unawares by his speed. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 22:27:52 +0000 From: tom timberlake Subject: Re: IN> (Pagan Victory) Interlude 1 Donald G Bixler wrote: > > Sorry for the delay, but here's the next piece. Expect two or three > more in the next 24-48 hours. > > Pagan Victory: Interlude 1 > [much snippage for bandwidth's sake] "Wakan's Children" was well done. I am eagerly awaiting the next episode of Pagan Victory. tom timberlake ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 00:11:27 EST From: "Perry M. Lloyd" Subject: Re: IN> (Pagan Victory) Interlude 1 Donald G Bixler wrote: > Pagan Victory: Interlude 1 He he he... __ __ @ ^ ^ ~ \___/ | - -Perry Perry M. Lloyd "I saw a monster come with speed, Its face of grimmest green. On human beings it used to feed, Most dreadful to be seen. -Lewis Carroll (from "Horrors"-1850) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 23:27:08 -0600 (CST) From: Donald G Bixler Subject: Re: IN> (Pagan Victory) Interlude 1 Oh yes, I forgot to mention one other thing. It looks like we're going to have six or so main episodes with an interlude between each. That's a little more than we had originally intended, but I hope none of you mind. Oops da Ogre, mudgb4@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu PS: Invaluable assistance with the kami thanks to Scott Johnson (zagyg@io.com) (Sorry I accidentally dropped you from the credits.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 23:38:14 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: IN> [DV] Business as Usual Here's a quick snippet of something-or-other to keep my hand in... * * * * * * He'd wanted to be the Angel of Sparrows, once. Sparrows are sweet little creatures, tiny little birds whose habits include eating seeds and insects, singing loudly at intruders before flying up to a higher branch, and being used in parables by religious figures. He'd loved sparrows, once. Now he sat in parks and fed them Alka-Seltzer. John, you see, was the Demon of Small Birds Exploding. It had been a 'gift' from Lucifer in one of his more playful moods, a 'welcome to Hell, here's your accordion' gift. At one shot, he'd been given a thorough introduction to how things worked in Hell, and how his new life would be different from the old. He hated it. John hated Alka-Seltzer, he hated rice, he hated ginger ale and all carbonated beverages, he hated everything which had to do with his job, even the poor helpless pathetic little featherballs themselves. Most of all, he hated his boss, Saminga, Demon Prince of Death, who had won the bid for his soul when he'd Tripped all those years ago. Deep in his heart, John had been hoping that Saminga would get his during Armageddeon. He'd Fallen only reluctantly, and perhaps unwisely- he'd been a young Cherub and hadn't understood the hazards of attuning oneself to anything and everything with feathers- and he wanted so badly to be Redeemed and let back into Heaven. Now, of course, there wasn't any Heaven to be a part of. John snapped a tablet of the abominable Seltzer in half and sighed. Just figures, instead of getting waxed, Saminga had become the most powerful being in all Existence. His old boss, Jordi, was running full bore looney across the savannahs of east Africa, and he was one of the -lucky- Archangels. John hadn't done anything wrong, really, and now he was condemned to keep on killing and killing poor, defenseless little birdies. "Hello, John," a sultry voice cooed from over his shoulder. He didn't bother looking around; he knew the voice's owner well enough. "Indulging in your favorite pastime?" "What do you want, Zedderah?" The Lilim of Malphas always got on his nerves. It seemed to be a sport with her. All things considered, he'd much rather participate with -another- sport with her, but her prices always ended up being too high. Zedderah dropped down onto the park bench, smiling playfully at him. "Just seeing who's left after all the defections," she said. "Amelia went Renegade last week." "I heard," John shrugged. "Wonder where she thinks she can run to." "Well, I've heard," Zedderah smiled, "I've -heard- that she made it to Texas. There's angels in Texas, you know." "That's just tabloid press," John growled. "If there were any big groups of angels, Saminga would be stomping them into little greasy spots in the Symphony." Zedderah ran her fingers through her blonde hair. "Saminga wouldn't know a group of angels if he were at a Malakite convention in Notre Dame." John didn't argue the point. "Any orders from Higher Up on your end?" "Not a one," Zedderah shrugged. "I'm still seducing cops, and you're still blowing up birds." She leaned back and sighed. "I figured things would be different after the Apocalypse, didn't you?" John tossed the fragments of the Alka-Seltzer tablet onto the sidewalk. "They did," he sighed. "Just not for demons like us." He tossed the torn packets into the trash, took a long, sad look at the perpetually overcast red sky, and then trudged off down the park walk. He'd be back tomorrow... --- Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "Hmmm... Sugar Plum Fairies." http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | --- Haagenti at the ballet c/o White Lightning Productions | * * * * * * http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | "MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Laurence and Haagenti http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 01:52:33 -0500 From: Jesse Rooney Subject: Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] I don't think that Kobal can assign Words at will; Lucifer awards Words. >I dunno. The people I assume who REALLY know are Janus/Valefor, his >highest rated flunkies, and maybe Lucifer himself. I suspect that his >servitors gossip, and pass rumors back and forth. It's no secret that >Kronos and Asmodeus SUSPECT something, and they just happily embellish on >the facts. If you ask a servitor of Theft, they'll do exactly what I >said, which is smile cheerily and borrow some of your belongings on a >permenant basis. Yves would know. I don't see any reason why Lucifer should know though. Jesse - -Ofinate of Tequlia. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 03:25:39 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: IN> Kronos Question Okay, I'm sitting there, letting my brain rot doing my service to Nybbas (i.e. watching TV :) ). A commercial for an upcoming episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer comes on. For those of you who know what such a thing is like, something clicks between my ears as two previously unconnected neurons finally connect. Suddenly, I sit bolt upright in bed with a gleam in my eye. Ah! Inspiration! Sweet inspiration! I frantically search for a pen, knowing that if I didn't write my idea immediately, the idea would be forgotten almost as quickly as I received it. Here's my idea (the question comes afterwards): a human being chased down by Servitors/Soldiers of Kronos. I know it sounds simple, but the simple ideas are usually the best ones (IMHO). You see, she is one of those people whose Destiny is much stronger than her Fate. This is somewhat similar as Hitler's Fate being stronger than his Destiny, just reversed. Now, is this a little too unsubtle for Kronos? Would he just whack someone because their Destiny is stronger? Or would he work that much harder to drive that person to their Fate? Trying to kill them before they achieved their Destiny could quite possibly drive them *to* their Destiny. I can just imagine the Destined One (whomever that might be) getting pissed, talking to Larry about becoming a Soldier, and picking up a weapon to join the fight. What do you guys think? Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, The Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, The Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:51:53 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] > >I dunno. The people I assume who REALLY know are Janus/Valefor, his > >highest rated flunkies, and maybe Lucifer himself. I suspect that his > >servitors gossip, and pass rumors back and forth. It's no secret that > >Kronos and Asmodeus SUSPECT something, and they just happily embellish on > >the facts. If you ask a servitor of Theft, they'll do exactly what I > >said, which is smile cheerily and borrow some of your belongings on a > >permenant basis. > Yves would know. I don't see any reason why Lucifer should know though. > Jesse > -Ofinate of Tequlia. Of COURSE Lucifer knows. It's quite simple, really. He wouldn't have let the game go on so long otherwise, and if he was in doubt, he just would have outright killed Valefor and seen what happened. It's not like Valefor doesn't have a Duke who would happily become the next Prince of Theft. Heck, if I was Lucifer, I'd help out with the disguise. It bothers poor Asmodeus so, and he needs to be brought down to size every once in a while. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 09:47:47 -0500 From: Jesse Rooney Subject: Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] >> >I dunno. The people I assume who REALLY know are Janus/Valefor, his >> >highest rated flunkies, and maybe Lucifer himself. I suspect that his >> >servitors gossip, and pass rumors back and forth. It's no secret that >> >Kronos and Asmodeus SUSPECT something, and they just happily embellish on >> >the facts. If you ask a servitor of Theft, they'll do exactly what I >> >said, which is smile cheerily and borrow some of your belongings on a >> >permenant basis. >> Yves would know. I don't see any reason why Lucifer should know though. >> Jesse >> -Ofinate of Tequlia. > >Of COURSE Lucifer knows. <> Well no, Lucifer, while powerful, is not all knowing. Otherwise he would have seen the fool that Furfur and Jesus made of him and stopped it or prevented it. There reallly is no reason why Lucifer should see the big picture. Some of the Princes, Belail and Samgina esp., have proved to be easy to manipluate where as sneaky Princes like Malphas and Valefor can hide stuff from Lucifer. There is no reason why Lucifer should have a complete understanding of Hell and its Politics. He would have the best idea but not the whole thing esp. while Malphas is around. - -Jesse Ofinate of Tequlia ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:23:29 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG] > >Of COURSE Lucifer knows. > <> > Well no, Lucifer, while powerful, is not all knowing. Otherwise he would > have seen the fool that Furfur and Jesus made of him and stopped it or > prevented it. There reallly is no reason why Lucifer should see the big > picture. Some of the Princes, Belail and Samgina esp., have proved to be > easy to manipluate where as sneaky Princes like Malphas and Valefor can > hide stuff from Lucifer. There is no reason why Lucifer should have a > complete understanding of Hell and its Politics. He would have the best > idea but not the whole thing esp. while Malphas is around. *shrug* My game, your game. I have a very distinct view from alot of other people, and I'm fond of it. I refuse to have a Lucifer that doesn't know what is going on all of the time, at least in Hell. He's not like just some Prince. He's King. Malphas is just a player. Valefor is just a player. They're just pawns in Lucifer's big game. He's the master of the politics. He's the Lord of Hell. He's the big kahuna. He's the Lord of Lies, the guy who puts fear into the hearts of the most powerful demons alive. Those Princes are just babies compared to the guy who tried to outmanuever God himself. Maybe the Princes can hide for a little while, but not for long, and certainly not forever. From each other, sure. They're on the same playing field. But from the guy THEY call Master? But this is all my point of view. I have Lucifer on another level completely. He tangles with the Big Guy upstairs. And let me tell you, Jesus's followers have supported him just fine over the course of history, and FurFur will do the same, if he likes it or not. Like the Dominion on DS9, Lucifer has a bad habit of seeing the long view. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 10:37:13 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Theology Miscellaneous replies to theological miscellany: > I have never seen any Biblical support for the salvation of > non-Christians. It is quite true that many missionaries and apologists have used the "only Christians are saved" idea as a heavy-handed marketing ploy, and that some denominations as a whole do so, and that the Church as a whole has sometimes used it as a political slogan while heresy-hunting within itself, and all this is deplorable. But there is a difference between (a) what some parts of Christendom sometimes do, (b) what the general position of the Church is, and (c) what is in the Bible. One of the things in the Bible is: "...we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe." -- 1 Timothy 4:10 This passage both acknowledges an "edge" for believers and clearly does not limit salvation to believers. Then, going back to the gospels, there is Christ's parable of the separation of the sheep and the goats. It is an image of Judgement Day, quite explicitly, and the basis for judgement is not belief in anything or anyone, but benevolence and charity to other people. As to the "no one comes to the Father but through me" idea, some "dodges" have already been suggested. C. S. Lewis remarked that no one avoids scurvy except by eating vitamin C, and this applies whether or not the people "believe" in vitamin C or have even heard of it. Around 1300, Dante wrote, in his Paradiso, of a tour of heaven. He encountered there, among many others, Trajan, a pagan Roman emperor. He inquires about the emperor's presence there and is told, basically, that Heaven is not interested in formalities when it comes to admissions policy. St. Thomas Aquinas worked out similar "loopholes" on a more formal, theological level, and is still accepted as a standard of Catholic theology. About Descartes and Ontological Arguments: Descartes did come up with an Ontological Argument for the existence of God. It is not the same one as Anselm's, and is not so often discussed. On Augustine's quip: "What was God doing before He made the world? Making a Hell for people who ask questions like that." Actually, Augustine didn't make that up; he just quoted it; it appears to have been an old joke even back in his day. And he quotes it to dismiss the attitude and go on to say that we still, after all, want an answer to the question. The answer he provides is almost exactly the same as the answer given by a modern cosmologist: Time is a feature of the created world, so there was no time before the world was created, hence the question "What was God doing *before*" does not have a real meaning. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:08:33 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Superiors' Notes: Nybbas, Vapula,, Kobal, and Andrealphus > Okay, the Wheel of Em spun and we got text! *SPIN* The Wheel is spinning right now, but no one will leave me alone long enough for me to grab it and stop it. Pretty soon I'm going to be singin' Entropy at people just to get them to leave me alone. > > Good for the most part, but I have a different take on Kobal and his > relation with Nybbas. Not any kind of canon nit, just a matter of different > focus. Well, hell, that's understandable. My take on Kobal is pretty game specific. > I see the relationships between these four breaking down like so: > > Vapula - Hardware Developer > Andre - Content Developer > Kobal - Content Developer > Nybbas - Access Developer > > Specifically, with regards to Kobal's recent boredom in this tail end of > the century, I can quite easily see large numbers of his minor demonlings > chained to typewriters, cranking out sitcoms (an infinite number of imps at > an infinite number of typewriters will eventually create all the scripts of > "Full House") and the like, while he keeps on only a limited number to do > the necessary scutwork in his organization. No no no... Full House wasn't random! It was a well planned attack on the Human Psyche! And it really isn't funny, if you think about it. That was an Impudite of Nybbas. "Boss, this is good annoying sickening family television, perfect for kids! And it will spawn spinoffs!" Writing sort of spans between both of them, Kobal and Nybbas. I doubt you need to chain anyone to anything, they'll do it willingly, but the chains are a good cosmetic, when Lucifer's auditors come through. (And at this point, I'd like to point out that writing, even bad scripts, is an act of creation which may inadvertantly lead to rather positive things for humans, especially some scathing political commentary and satire. Very intellectual, and.... well. Something to seriously ponder about those guys, and in different ways.) > > Just about every Prince whose Word depends on humans (Lust, Gluttony, > Factions, etc.) has at least a liaison office in Nybbas' realm, if not a > full fledged content development team. Pretty much the only Princes who > don't utilise Nybbas' services are Saminga, Vapula(who has a different > sort of relationship), Asmodeus, and Belial, but Nybbas is fairly > aggressive about promoting his services and is constantly trying to drum up > sales among those Princes. Working in Nybbas' Ad Sales department is > literally murder... Yeah.... funny that. I noticed that as well. Everyone is working through Nybbas, except the Old Guard who is circling horses and building walls between themselves and everyone else. Baal, Asmodeus and Kronos are sort of off on their own, promoting their Words the old way, but they are getting promoted ANYWAYS, just as a side effect. Everyone else needs a 'special' relationship with Nybbas, even Vapula just to get the media distributed on a wide scale. Even Saminga is getting promoted in small, mild ways... trashy industrial music, war on CNN, famine in Ethopia on the 11 o'clock news. I wonder a bit about Nybbas's soaring power, and scratch my chin. I have NPCs who work for Nybbas. He's promoting a very odd side of Creativity, even if it's trash, isn't he? - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:00:55 -0500 From: "Thomas Davidson" Subject: Re: IN> [DV] Business as Usual - ---------- > From: Redneck Gaijin > To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com > Subject: IN> [DV] Business as Usual > Date: Monday, December 01, 1997 12:38 AM > > Here's a quick snippet of something-or-other to keep my hand in... > > * * * * * * Damn, Kris, but this is good stuff. Thanks. Thomas Davidson tdavidso@suffolk.lib.ny.us MUSIC: Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, Rush, Jimi Hendrix GAMES: Champions (old and new), In Nomine, Nephilim TV: The X-Files, The Simpsons, Superman, The Tick, The Animaniacs OTHER: Religion, Philosophy, mysticism, the runes, the Tarot, writing ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:17:55 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: IN> How to get a head in advertising!! (plot seed) This is based on the idea that there is a very underpowered and inexperienced new Duke of the Media around, together with an entourage who have been ordered to doctor its PR so as to make everything it does seem inspired (if thats the right word) and impressive to any outsiders. Servants of more old-guard DPs are also hanging around to try to bring it crashing down. Angels (or demons) with initiative might be able to take advantage of this ;-) Personnel in brief: a) Nils, Balseraph Duke of the Media (unworded) (Newly fledged and on 8 forces (Nybbas was feeling generous that day), with 4 of them in Ethereal. It is quite a bright cookie but has no idea why it got plucked from obscurity to high rank; with characteristic Balseraph paranoia it harbours vague suspicions about the motives of everyone involved but has decided to play dumb in the hope of catching one of its 'advisors' out. Its quite an amiable character (has a couple of points of charisma) and its advisors are finding it nicely pliable and easy to manipulate. At least one of them has been struck by the notion that if they can only keep it in the Duke's spot, anyone who gets to serve it is on the gravy train for life.) Summary: An outstandingly successful advertising agency is losing its touch. An executive who might otherwise have had a half-decent destiny throws himself off a bridge. A secretary has taken an extended holiday.. and hasn't come back. As the firm crumbles, suddenly an external offer comes in from a high profile competitor whose director is a well-known founder member of the 'ethics in advertising' pressure group. Angels are drafted in to help this director (a servant of Marc) secure the deal... when they hear that there is also a Duke of Hell in town... Background: This is a set-up job. The firm's original success was based on the fact that some media demons had located a statistical phenomenon, a human woman whose opinions totally reflected those of the general population -- suddenly they didn't need to do large polls, they could just ask her what she thought of their adverts/ products/ programmes and know how the public in general would respond! In order to hang onto her, they found a job for her in the firm as a secretary with the promise that chances for modelling would surely follow. It was easy for one of Azzie's demons to entice the secretary away and imprison her in a nasty little relic it had been given which was supposedly in the hands of a servant of Technology, then all they had to do was to make sure someone suggested asking the 'Duke' to take an interest. They think it would be a good ploy to use the hapless Duke to drive a wedge between Nybbas and Vapula. Diplomatic incidents are fun. What they weren't expecting was that Marc's people were ready and waiting to pounce on the opportunity, and had been trying to work out the secret of the firm's success for some time. Notes: ** Anyone who worked at the old firm, from the managing director to the part-time cleaner, will know how significant the secretary was to the organisation even though she wasn't very good at her job. (ie. only the admen will know why she was so important). ** The media demons are working like .. well.. like demons on two fronts. They need to be seen to be thwarting angelic power-plays AND they need to find this secretary pronto -- they are working on the assumption that angelic forces have got her. Senior advisors have decided to let the Duke front up the angel-opposition, as they think this will be easier to stage-manage, while they do the important human-hunting stuff. ** In order to make their takeover bid seem attractive to the board of the old company, Marc's people have pinpointed 2 main clients that they'd like wooed to 'their' firm before they can make a solid bid. PCs may be assigned to this. They also fully intend to use every trick in the book with regards to bribery, incentives etc for existing members of the board and are organising a grand gala party which is notionally supposed to celebrate some successful advertising campaign, actually its to get all the board in the same place so they can work on them. ** The Duke has 'decided' (ie. its advisors presented the idea to it in such a way that it decided it had been its own idea all along -- balseraphs are prone to this mode of plagiarism :) ) to take an active hand in turning this agency around, while its minions locate the woman. Accordingly, they are on a fullscale recruitment drive. It also intends to turn up to the party, with associated hangers on, in the hope of identifying relevant angelic-aligned beings and also getting to the board (its a balseraph, it is confident it can convince any mortal of anything). Once they have identified some angels, it will try to get brownie-points by screwing with them and their servants. ** A couple of Kobals demons (or even PCs if they're aligned that way) also want to see this woman found. But they think it'd be sort of cool if the angels did their work for them, especially if it was made to look like a setup that the Duke cunningly saw through. They'll hang around in domino masks and black cloaks, pretending to be stereotypical spies, and feed useful information to any angels they can find. If asked, they will claim to be working for the Duke.. sort of... ** Locating the woman. Friends will know that she did go on holiday, mentioning excitedly that she was planning to go to Hollywood, and neighbours whisper that she was picked up from her house in a nice black limo, from a car hire firm. Although an airline ticket was booked in her name, she never took the flight. ** Azzie's boys (or PCs) do actually want this woman to be found, so that they can start the whispering campaign. As soon as anyone starts making enquiries at the airport, car hire firm etc someone will drop a hint to one of the searchers that there was a bit of symphonic activity in a run down hotel at around that time. If anyone goes there to ask at the reception about who was there at the time they'll be asked for credentials (ie. police or reporters credentials) before any information is given. The receptionist is actually a demon using its humanity attunement and can drop a question as to whether PCs are connected with a guy who was staying at the hotel as he left something in a hotel strongbox and hasn't collected it. ** This demon will gleefully hand over a locked photograph album to anyone who asks for it, making a show of servility. It is very obviously a relic, and is marked in the corner with a sticker saying (in demonic) 'Beta-testing version only. Please do not remove from Tartarus test-benches'. The album is a half-finished relic (more in later plot seeds, maybe ;) ) and holds only one photograph -- its a picture of a burning building. Any celestial who examines the photo (and makes their perception roll) will have an uneasy feeling that the flames are flickering, out of the corner of their eye. It isn't clear what you would have to do to activate the artefact. Feeding essence to it is the trick, but evidently not a good one. If anyone does this, the flames really will start to flicker and burn, and watchers will see a female figure inside the burning building, screaming. As they watch, the building burns down and the woman (it is definitely the secretary) dies in flames. Eventually all the photo shows is a pile of ashes. ** The photo actually connects to a pocket of Beleth's realm. The only way to get in there is via dream-walking or the song of dreams. As soon as anyone enters, the flames will begin to burn so any celestial rescuers don't have very long to find the woman and get her out. ** As an outcome, everyone will be trying to put their own spin on whatever happens. If the woman is successfully located/ rescued and the photo album discovered, Azzie's people will start rumouring that Vapula's demons were provoked by something the Duke did into capturing her in the first place. ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #492 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.