From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Mon Dec 1 20:55:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA27808 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:55:30 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id UAA14323 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:45:14 -0600 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:45:14 -0600 Message-Id: <199712020245.UAA14323@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #494 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Monday, December 1 1997 Volume 01 : Number 494 In this digest: Re: IN> Kyriotate and Nominous Corpus Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 Re: IN> Em, The Demon of Playing In Nomine Backwards Re: IN> Kyrio hit points Re: IN> Em, The Demon of Playing In Nomine Backwards Archangels and Christianity (was Re: IN> Theology) Re: IN> Christmas in Heaven Re: Archangels and Christianity (was Re: IN> Theology) Re: IN> Celestial genders Re: IN> Christmas in Heaven Re: IN> Kyrio hit points Re: Archangels and Christianity (was Re: IN> Theology) Re: IN> Em, The Demon of Playing In Nomine Backwards Re: IN> Furfur (was Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG]) Re: IN> Seraphim IN> Christmas in Hell Re: IN> The 144,000 Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 Re: IN> The 144,000 Re: IN> Superiors' Notes IN> What to do after a vessel dies - I must be dense Re: IN> Fluff: Celestials in Space Re: IN> Christmas in Heaven Re: IN> Theology (was Re: digest #487) Re: IN> Celestial genders Re: IN> What to do after a vessel dies - I must be dense Re: IN> The 144,000 Re: IN> Superiors' Notes Re: IN> Fluff: Celestials in Space Re: IN> Superiors' Notes Re: IN> Celestial genders Re: IN> Celestial genders Re: IN> Seraphim Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> The 144,000 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:56:54 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotate and Nominous Corpus At 1:56 AM -0800 11/27/97, Stefano Ponti wrote: >When a kiriotate sings a Numinous Corpus how is this applied to his >multi-vessel? A Kyrio may have one NC per host. It can make those NC appear on *any* one of its hosts (it can, for instance, sing with one and make the NC appear on another right after), but this takes at least a round in combat. If it wants more of its hosts to have the effects of that Song at the same time, it has to perform the Song again. If it has three hosts (call this a 15-Force Kyrio, for grins), and sings Claws once, then one of those hosts, per round, may have the effects. If it sings Claws again, then two hosts may use Claws. If a third time, all three hosts get to slash. If, however, it abandons one of those hosts for two smaller ones (call it 2 cats), only one of those will get Claws "automatically." It must sing Claws a fourth time for all four hosts to use that NC. "And I'll sing with a drunken angel...on the merry side of Hell" - --Michael Longcor - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:51:52 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 At 4:04 PM -0600 11/26/97, tom timberlake wrote: >a superhero named tony wrote: >> >> > Anyone else ever felt that God must be really, really bored. The [...] > or God is a GM improv-ing >wildly as His players [us humans] make unexpected choices. Needless to >say, [but I will say it anyway] the all-knowing maze architect is a much >more reassuring God to worship. It may be my experience with a certain improv GM, but in some ways, I'd *rather* that version. (The squabbling Archangels and Heaven politics, as they've manifested in our games, are actually *more* appealing to me than many conventional views of Christianity. Mind you, my paternal grandfather watches Oral Roberts, so my view of "conventional Christianity" may be a bit skew...) I guess I kinda like the explanation of "The Divine (and its minions) *is* basically benevolant, but can make mistakes. It feels bad about mistakes, tries to fix them if it can, but it's not doing bad things for some ineffable plan." Sort of more comforting, really. All the bad things are *mistakes*, not some kind of "learning experience" or Habbie-style test. Mis- takes can be learned from, and hopefully avoided in the future... - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:38:53 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Em, The Demon of Playing In Nomine Backwards > >Em, Balseraph Captain of the Game, Demon of Playing In Nomine Backwards > >I have Rites and everything. :) > >I work for Azzie. But I hang with Kobal's people sometimes, just because > >it's cool. > > Either that, or she's a spy, but what else do you expect of the Game? Moi? I'm perfectly innocent. I'd never spy on friends. I have more tact, and infinitely good Balseraph hair. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:00:29 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio hit points At 7:44 AM +1100 11/28/97, Patrick O'Duffy wrote: >G'day. > I remember this being debated a while ago, but don't recall what the >canon verdict was. With the rules for the HP of mortal changing in >Night Music, what does this mean for the HP of mortals possessed by >Kyrio/Shedim? Kyrios treat the host body as a vessel of level equal to the host's Corporeal Forces plus any Toughness. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 19:59:27 GMT From: maya@tcp.co.uk (GR Cogman) Subject: Re: IN> Em, The Demon of Playing In Nomine Backwards >> Either that, or she's a spy, but what else do you expect of the Game? > >Moi? I'm perfectly innocent. I'd never spy on friends. I have more >tact, and infinitely good Balseraph hair. > >- Em Ah, but you have cute Cherubs of Judgement hanging around to muss it for you, thus giving you that innocent and friendly impression which makes all the difference. - --- Maya, Elohim of Eli in service to Blandine maya@tcp.co.uk - -- "There are those who say that wizards are subject to temptations and addictions beyond the understanding of ordinary men: the addiction to shape-changing, or to meditation under the influence of certain herbs and conditions of the stars; the obsession with knowledge, and the development of power. Yet this is not so. Temptation is temptation, obsession is obsession, and choice is choice." - Isar Chelladan, Precepts of Wizardry. -- "Dog Wizard", Barbara Hambly. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:04:12 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Archangels and Christianity (was Re: IN> Theology) On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Steve Jessop wrote: > This is not true in IN, where Christianity is simply Laurence's pet > project. Having read up on Laurence in Night Music, I got the impression that _Catholicism_ was Laurence's pet project. He doesn't actually seem to appreciate the fact that there are other sects of Christianity. Which leads me to my question: do the other Christian sects have their own patron Archangels or Word-bound angels? Laurence doesn't want them, so somebody in Heaven (in In Nomine) must be looking out for them. Here are my theories about it. Janus would be the patron Archangel of the Protestant movement in general; after all, he doesn't like things to be static and unchanging, and the Martin Luther got things shaken up pretty well in regards to the Catholic church. Michael might not be the patron of any sect in particular, but he would look with favor on any sect that was just starting out (because they would have to fight for survival) or any group that believes in active missionary work (because proselyting missionaries tend to see themselves as soldiers in a war), as long as they were sincerely trying to serve God. Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:07:10 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> Christmas in Heaven Shadowcat wrote: > What do the various Archangels do for Christmas? Carols would be highly traditional for all angels. Lessee... Gabriel waxes sentimental and roasts chestnuts on an open fire. Janus goes on a whirlwind shopping spree. Dominic doublechecks St. Nick's list on whose been naughty and nice. Jordi visits stables. Novalis hands out Christmas trees and poinsettias. Michael goes to a USO Christmas show for servicemen. Yves gives out calendar books and something you're GOING to need... Eli sends out Christmas cards with no return addresses. Marc gives gift certificates. Jean includes the batteries. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:11:44 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Archangels and Christianity (was Re: IN> Theology) gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > Michael might not be the patron of any sect in particular, but he > would look with favor on any sect that was just starting out > (because they would have to fight for survival) or any group that > believes in active missionary work (because proselyting missionaries > tend to see themselves as soldiers in a war), as long as they > were sincerely trying to serve God. Michael, more than Laurence, would be a good patron of Christianity in general. In fact, he is traditionally so regarded. Also patron of the Jews. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:14:49 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Celestial genders On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Frank Lazar wrote: > I'm not sure, but I believe that there is at least one of the medieval > bestiaries that not only lists Gabriel as a female angel, but as the only > one! If that were true in the beginning, no wonder she's crazy. :) I don't know anything about medieval bestiaries, but I think Gabriel should be portrayed as male. Why? The name Gabriel means "man of God". I know that doesn't necessarially mean anything in In Nomine, but I would like to think that the Archangels have names for a reason. Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:15:30 -0500 (EST) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> Christmas in Heaven In a message dated 12/1/97 11:37:47 AM, you wrote: > What do the various Archangels do for Christmas? Here's my list: Blandine and Christopher are keeping the children "all nestled safe in their beds/While visions of sugarplums dance in their heads" Laurence attends the Midnight Mass at Rome. Dominic attends the Midnight Mass at Notre Dame de Paris. David stands watch over Bethlehem. Michael stands watch over the world. Novalis joins carolers. Marc makes sure the last-minute deliveries are made to orphanages and soup kitchens. Janus hangs out in the NORAD tracking room, laughing. Jordi glowers, seeing all the "cute pets" that are about to be abandoned. Gabriel hides and weeps. Yves tries to comfort Gabriel. > Shadowcat Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 06:21:09 +1100 From: "Patrick O'Duffy" Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio hit points > >G'day. > > I remember this being debated a while ago, but don't recall what the > >canon verdict was. With the rules for the HP of mortal changing in > >Night Music, what does this mean for the HP of mortals possessed by > >Kyrio/Shedim? > > Kyrios treat the host body as a vessel of level equal to the > host's Corporeal Forces plus any Toughness. Hmmm.... okay. That seeems a bit kludged - and I kinda like the idea of possessed hosts being more fragile than regular vessels - but it looks like it will work for play balance, so I'll go with it. Thanks. - -- Patrick O'Duffy, Brisbane, Australia I'm on the floor, I play with knives You can call and ask your wife She's been over once or twice, she likes to use me AFGHAN WHIGS, "I'm Her Slave" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:23:40 -0500 (EST) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: Archangels and Christianity (was Re: IN> Theology) In a message dated 12/1/97 12:06:31 PM, you wrote: >Michael might not be the patron >of any sect in particular, but he would look with favor on any sect that >was just starting out (because they would have to fight for survival) or >any group that believes in active missionary work (because proselyting >missionaries tend to see themselves as soldiers in a war), as long as they >were sincerely trying to serve God. > Actually, the only joint project between Novalis and Michael is the odd denomination known as the Salvation Army. Their motto is "Blood and Fire," but their lapel "S"'s stand for "Saved to Serve." They commission officers instead of ordaining ministers, and rather than referring to "Church" the refer to "Corps." Mark (just a thought...) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:36:13 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Em, The Demon of Playing In Nomine Backwards > Ah, but you have cute Cherubs of Judgement hanging around to muss it for > you, thus giving you that innocent and friendly impression which makes all > the difference. > *wave hands* Go away! I'll have nothing to do with them! Besides, I think the local Bal of the Media has a claim on the Cherub of Judgement. :) - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:58:59 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Furfur (was Hell's Politics [REALLY REALLY LONG]) On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, David Chart wrote: > (Furfur made a fool of Lucifer? That's not how I read Night Music, but I > don't have the later books yet.) Made a fool of _Lucifer_? Heh. He couldn't even make a fool out of my players when they stopped him from becoming Demon Prince of Hardcore, and that was with me trying everything I could think of to ensure that he succeeded. If he couldn't even outfox a bunch of 9-force angels, how's he suppossed to make a fool of the Prince of Lies? Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 16:02:14 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, David Chart wrote: > >> "Are Janus and Valefor the same being?" > > > > Why hasn't Dominic asked Janus this question? > > Dom's a Bal... Eh? What? How do you figure that? Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:31:59 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: IN> Christmas in Hell ... or did you think they didn't have holidays down there? Andrealphus goes down to Earth in female vessel and invites men to participate in an Immaculate Conception. Asmodeus brings lumps of coal to all the bad little imps, gremlins, frotlings, familiars, and other demonlings. Baal wraps up pipe bombs with labels reading 'Do Not Open until Xmas'. Beleth gets well-meaning video companies to re-release the Mexican 'Santa Claus' movie. (No, Lupita!!) Belial buys Yule Logs for all his favorite Servitors. Haagenti and Nybbas remind everyone there's only 137 shopping days left until Easter. Kobal goes around all the malls and shopping centers pulling down Santa's beard. Kronos tests light strings to make sure each and every one is defective in some subtle way. Malphas buys up a few thousand cases of Tickle Me Elmo's and has a weenie roast. Saminga giggles as he hoses down the bridges in the Deep South to make them nice and slick. Valefor drops $50,000 fur stoles in the Goodwill collection box. Vapula works hard designing even more annoying noises for battery-operated toys to make. And Lilith goes around all the other Demon Princes, asking, "What did YOU get me for Christmas?" Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "Hmmm... Sugar Plum Fairies." http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | --- Haagenti at the ballet c/o White Lightning Productions | * * * * * * http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | "MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Laurence and Haagenti http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:37:32 -0500 (EST) From: MarkDEddy@aol.com Subject: Re: IN> The 144,000 In a message dated 12/1/97 11:14:27 AM, you wrote: >High-powered saints give a whole alternate hierarchy to Heaven for >the GM who likes to roll their own. Unfortunately, In Nomine has already done this. Look at St. Dominic (Dominicans, the Friars who ran the Inquisition), St. Laurence, St. Christopher (no longer recognized by the R.C. Church), St. Marc (Mark, the patron of Venice), or St. David (King David of Bethlehem) >Earl Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:51:47 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Corey wrote: > >No. Not if you believe that humans have free will. If you believe that, > >then God is not responsible for evil. He merely allows it to continue for > >a time. Why? Because, as free beings, humans have to be given a real > >choice between good and evil. Without evil being allowed to exist for a > >time, there would be no real freedom to choose good. After all, if all > >you can choose is "X", then how free are you when you choose it? > > I agree whole heartedly with this, as I addressed in one of my other posts. > How 'ere, simply allowing it to continue, even for good, is still an evil > act. Keep in mind this all IMO, I am no theologian. On the other hand, > God is ineffable, and therefore whatever He wants to do is most likely right. I don't quite agree. Allowing evil to go unopposed is evil, granted. However, Judeo-Christian theology also raises the point that evil is not going to go unopposed. God will end it in His own good time, but not before we have had a chance to have our freedom and learn to act in the manner we desire. Of course, this is all my opinion as well. I'm no theologian either. Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 16:54:02 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> The 144,000 MarkDEddy@aol.com wrote: > Unfortunately, In Nomine has already done this. Look at St. Dominic > (Dominicans, the Friars who ran the Inquisition), St. Laurence, St. > Christopher (no longer recognized by the R.C. Church), St. Marc > (Mark, the patron of Venice), or St. David (King David of Bethlehem) This, at least, explains where some of the non-Biblical, non-Hebrew names for Archangels come from. Thank you. However, just because some angels and some humans share names doesn't mean IN canon has pre-empted the idea of a "College of Saints" to counterpoise the Seraphim Counsil. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:19:07 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Superiors' Notes > He's perverting creativity, you mean. All those creative people who're > being harnessed into making the great media-mobile keep turning around, > anyone who is lured into writing trashy sitcoms because it pays well > when really they could have been soaring so much higher. Promoting > trashy creativity automatically means crushing non-trashy creativity -- > its the same pool of creators who are pulled into either side. Now some > people can do both, but Nybbas doesn't encourage /that/. Indeed. > > Media is about control, pure and simple. Sure, they'll tell you its > creative, but servants of lust will tell you that lust is healthy. As my > art teacher used to say, draw your own conclusions ;) The aim of the > Media is not to encourage the masses to explore their own creativity > (and it is largely successful in this). Right. I've seen Nybbas and Kobal exploring the dark sides of creativity, in two completely different directions. Nybbas channels it into frivolous, meaningless and overall gratuitious displays of selfishness for everyone to see, and people can't get with his program fast enough. It doesn't get anyone to explore their own creativity except those doing the creating, it forces people to sit there and accept what Nybbas and Crew churn out, be it mentally stimulating Discovery Channel or Urkel. But I keep in mind, on his picture in the source book, that one of the TVs has a picture of Eli. It makes people passive. It's a most interesting version of Sloth. Kobal is a different thing entirely. It takes a real obnoxious character to make it in his organization, but anyone can play stupid little pranks. Political commentary, long stand-up routines, even laughing out loud in church or during a funeral may be rude, nasty, and horrible, but people will certainly talk about it later and if it's really good, a long time to come. Even suicidal little pranks force humans to stand back and wonder if this is... really such a good idea. It's the exact opposite of the angelic (especially Dominic's) close minded view of blindly accepting the status quo because it's the status quo. Here's an odd, totally random thought. Although Nybbas is spreading Kobal's word, by removing the need to listen and think, he's removing alot of it's punch. (Jim Carrey vs. the Marx Brothers, anyone?) The need to question the way things are through the use of scathing pain is part of Dark Comedy... but if it's watered down by the sitcom, does it make it less important? The funniest shows are the smartest ones, but those are becoming few and far between. (Taxi vs. Full House, say.) Maybe part of Kobal's irritation comes from this... a loss of enlightenment, as his word supports Sloth. Hmmm. - - Em, who is NOT SPYING on the Kobalites. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 02:32:38 -0800 From: Andrew Walters Subject: IN> What to do after a vessel dies - I must be dense Honest, I've read the rules (original book only) and the FAQ and I still don't understand one thing: Let's say I've got a starting angel character and we're all running around fighting evil and my vessel gets squished under a large metal trapezoid with "16 tons" written on the side of it (Toons crossover). Assume I avoid or waith out Traume. I've got plenty of essence, but no character points, so I can't buy a new vessel. I can't earn any more character points in heaven, so down to Earth I go to help my friends complete our mission in my celestial form. Right. I know what job I'd get: "You go just outside town and create a diversion..." Seems to me that you would always want to buy a one-point mouse/bat/sparrow vessel to switch into right before you bite it - this lets you escape for just one essence, and you drag the potentiality of your nearly-dead vessel somewhere safe where it can recover when time allows. This way you would avoid Trauma and get to keep your vessel. Even if the timing of the mission does not allow your regular vessel to heal, you have the mouse vessel and celestial form to choose from for the rest of the adventure (and possibly the next couple of adventues, until you get three character points. Alternatively, make sure you have a possesion song ready, or once you get some character points make sure you always keep three in reserve. Of course, I realize this is not a strategy game but a role-playing game, but are you role-playing a celestial so dumb that they won't make sure they have a simple, inexpensive escape mechanism? Its like a life jacket or a spare tire, simple efforts at self-preservation are always "in-character". So I guess my questions are: 1) Do I understand the mechanics right? Or have I missed something? 2) How do others play out this situation in actualy play? Do characters have spare vessels, other escape mechanisms? Do they wonder around in celestial form for a few sessions? Do you assume they get a dressing down and then given a new vessel "on credit" by their superior? 3) Has anyone abandoned a character because of this situation? That doesn't feel like role-playing to me, since only a small part of the celestial has actually died. I've only read the mailing list now and then (and looked at the archives), but if this has been hashed-to-death then I apologize, but I couldn't find it... Thanks in advance... Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:16:38 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Fluff: Celestials in Space At 3:44 PM -0500 11/29/97, Frank Lazar wrote: >> >>> [Canon Request] Are there any Celestials on the moon? >> >>[Canon Request] Are there any Celestials on Alpha Centauri? [...] >Hmm... one appropriate place might be Deep Space Nine, the most religously >contested corner of the Trek Universe. :) Now that's an idea for a >crossover story I just might do. Deep Space In Nomine... Yeah, I could see the Wormhole as having a Tether in it... I'd love to see that story! - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:52:03 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Christmas in Heaven At 8:44 PM -0600 12/1/97, Shadowcat wrote: >Greetings all. > This weekend Fran asked me a question that I thought that you all >would appreciate. > What do the various Archangels do for Christmas? Hmmmmmm..... Gabriel likes burning Yule logs. (Belial likes christmas lights with shorts in them.) Laurence attends midnight Mass. Blandine goes all-out with the sugarplum visions. David goes caroling with friends. Eli has a party. A *big* party. With Novalis. (But all the trees are live ones.) Yves goes quietly visiting and has eggnog with people who need that. Jean is busy programming and hasn't looked up since the last time one of his Servitors called and doesn't have a clue what day it is. Dominic *intends* to go to midnight Mass, but probably won't make it because of business. Maybe if one of his Servitors is there and he can just drop in anyway. Christopher is doing "Blue Santa". Janus is harnessing up a bunch of Ofanim with reindeer vessels and the Songs of Motion. Jordi doesn't care about silly human holidays. Litheroy is trying desperately to find somebody who'll talk about what JC was or wasn't. Michael is looking for a snowball fight. (So is Baal, but he's dunking his in water so they're icy.) Marc is swooning at all the shoppers, and trying to track down Mammon to shoot him. Hmmmm.... That about everybody? - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:14:52 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Theology (was Re: digest #487) At 7:22 PM +0000 11/29/97, Steve Jessop wrote: >On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, The Saint of Killers wrote: >Incidentally, who exactly _was_ Christ? God's vessel? Some other being >higher than the angels? A soldier doing as he was told? Or are SJ Games >not telling? Canonically, *nobody knows* (or at least, anybody who knows isn't talking!) whether JC was a manifestation of God, an angel, a Soldier, an ethereal spirit (!!), a mundane human or *WHAT*. Not even some of the *Archangels* know... Gaby, presumably, does, but she's not talking and you might not be able to tell whether her answer was alagorical, truthful, or squid. Yves may know, but since when has *he* ever given a straight answer that didn't suit his purposes... >A final point, and one which might get me flamed: > >Why doesn't a Seraph of Dominic, with 6 Celestial forces, and perception >12, simply find some slob and ask him 'Why does God allow evil?'. The guy >says 'Because He doesn't care', the angel has an automatic success on his >resonance, with check digit 7-12, and instantly knows The Truth, whatever >it is. I can only think of two ways out: There are some Truths that cannot be held in consciousness outside of the upper Heavens. On a 111 for resonance, the Seraph ascends there instantly and is out of the game. On a 666, his mind is utterly cracked and he becomes a gibbering Balseraph on the spot. Any other result gets him a flash of blinding insight -- and when he wakes up, he can't remember what the Truth was, except that he *understood* for a moment. (Sort of like waking up from a dream. I wish I remembered how to build such an elegant "square" In Nomine character...) And the GM grins unplesantly and asks, "And do you have any *other* smart questions of your Archangel, sweetscales?" Hem. And the other thing, as Prince David () points out, is that GMs should generally restrict Symphonic Truth results to things that directly concern the person being asked. There has to be that thematic connection, to get the Whole Truth. (So if you ask someone, "Do you think your wife is seeing someone else?" and he says "No," you could get: "He believes she's not, but the Truth is that she's got a whole string on the side." But if you ask J. Random Human, "Do you think Mrs. Jones is cheating on her husband?" and the guy goes, "Oh, sure -- women do it all the time," the most you could get is "He doesn't know the Truth about Mrs. Jones." Since he knows nothing of her, the Symphony simply can't reveal anything. Or so I would play it. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:32:39 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Celestial genders At 3:14 PM -0400 12/1/97, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Frank Lazar wrote: > >> I'm not sure, but I believe that there is at least one of the medieval >> bestiaries that not only lists Gabriel as a female angel, but as the only >> one! If that were true in the beginning, no wonder she's crazy. :) > >I don't know anything about medieval bestiaries, but I think Gabriel >should be portrayed as male. Why? The name Gabriel means "man of God". >I know that doesn't necessarially mean anything in In Nomine, but I would >like to think that the Archangels have names for a reason. The Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary says: Gabriel, God is my strength... So obviously that's not the *only* translation. Whee. O:/ - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:44:56 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> What to do after a vessel dies - I must be dense At 2:32 AM -0800 12/1/97, Andrew Walters wrote: >Honest, I've read the rules (original book only) and the FAQ and I still >don't understand one thing: > >Let's say I've got a starting angel character and we're all running >around fighting evil and my vessel gets squished under a large metal >trapezoid with "16 tons" written on the side of it (Toons crossover). Kobalic minions. >Assume I avoid or wait out Trauma. I've got plenty of essence, but no >character points, so I can't buy a new vessel. [...] Okay, here's what's been batted around... If you've been doing a good job and got vessel-toasted in the line of duty, supporting your boss's Word, and the boss is pleased, your Superior gives you a new vessel (probably in lieu of character points). If he's only a little pleased with you, you get a wimpy or slightly defective vessel. If he's neutral, you may get to "owe" the points ("I'll give you this vessel, but you'd better be supporting my Word real well with it..."). If he's annoyed with you... You probably show up in a half-blind three legged animal vessel and you owe him for that much. And if you get Heaven & Hell, you *can* do stuff in Heaven if the GM wants to do politics or such. >Seems to me that you would always want to buy a one-point >mouse/bat/sparrow vessel to switch into right before you bite it - this >lets you escape for just one essence, and you drag the potentiality of >your nearly-dead vessel somewhere safe where it can recover when time >allows. This is another good thing to do -- though I usually like Vessel/1, for 3 points. They tend to be more useful, and sometimes you can use it for other stuff. (Like hiding under the car seat and being glad that they can't arrest kitty-cats like they're gonna arrest everyone else when they catch the Ofanite who's broken *how* many traffic laws??) >This way you would avoid Trauma and get to keep your vessel. >Even if the timing of the mission does not allow your regular vessel to >heal, you have the mouse vessel and celestial form to choose from for >the rest of the adventure (and possibly the next couple of adventues, >until you get three character points. You can't stay in Celestial form for more than Will + CD minutes. >1) Do I understand the mechanics right? Or have I missed something? Mostly, though there is text that implies you *can't* go to the corporeal realm without a vessel (unless you're a reliever or equivalent). >2) How do others play out this situation in actualy play? Do characters >have spare vessels, other escape mechanisms? I do, but some others don't... They just serve their AA very diligently. >Do they wonder around in celestial form for a few sessions? Nope. p. 54 of In Nomine... >Do you assume they get a dressing down and then given a new >vessel "on credit" by their superior? That's my basic assumption, aye. - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 18:23:34 -0500 From: "B. Colley" Subject: Re: IN> The 144,000 >patron of Venice), or St. David (King David of Bethlehem) David is not a Saint, I should know, I am his father. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 18:27:00 -0500 From: "B. Colley" Subject: Re: IN> Superiors' Notes >less important? The funniest shows are the smartest ones, but those are >becoming few and far between. (Taxi vs. Full House, say.) Maybe part of >Kobal's irritation comes from this... a loss of enlightenment, as his word >supports Sloth. Are you suggesting that Taxi was funny? I may have to disagree. - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 18:32:47 -0500 From: "B. Colley" Subject: Re: IN> Fluff: Celestials in Space >>> >>>> [Canon Request] Are there any Celestials on the moon? >>> >>>[Canon Request] Are there any Celestials on Alpha Centauri? >[...] >>Hmm... one appropriate place might be Deep Space Nine, the most religously >>contested corner of the Trek Universe. :) Now that's an idea for a >>crossover story I just might do. > >Deep Space In Nomine... Yeah, I could see the Wormhole as having >a Tether in it... > >I'd love to see that story! Forget that! In Nomine in Monty Python and the Holy Grail! The Knights that Go Ne are Lilim, The Peasents are Seraphim, The Wenches of the Castle are Impudites etc. etc. What Fun! - -Jesse ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:28:50 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: IN> Superiors' Notes > >>less important? The funniest shows are the smartest ones, but those are >>becoming few and far between. (Taxi vs. Full House, say.) Maybe part of >>Kobal's irritation comes from this... a loss of enlightenment, as his word >>supports Sloth. >Are you suggesting that Taxi was funny? I may have to disagree. I -love- Taxi. I wouldn't call it smart by any means, but it was outstandingly funny. Intellectual comedy doesn't seem to do that well in the States, at least not commercially. I tend to look overseas for that sort of thing. Redneck (Asmodeus is -such- a smeghead) Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "Hmmm... Sugar Plum Fairies." http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | --- Haagenti at the ballet c/o White Lightning Productions | * * * * * * http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | "MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Laurence and Haagenti http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 19:45:40 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Celestial genders On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 3:14 PM -0400 12/1/97, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > > The Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary says: > Gabriel, God is my strength... > > So obviously that's not the *only* translation. Whee. O:/ Oops. That's what I get for thinking names in foreign languages translate exactly into English. Sorry. Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:26:32 -0500 From: Elizabeth McCoy Subject: Re: IN> Celestial genders At 7:45 PM -0400 12/1/97, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > >> At 3:14 PM -0400 12/1/97, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: >> >> The Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary says: >> Gabriel, God is my strength... >> >> So obviously that's not the *only* translation. Whee. O:/ > >Oops. That's what I get for thinking names in foreign languages translate >exactly into English. Sorry. Which translation has it as "man of God"? (My Dictonary of Angels and Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary both agree with "God is my strength," but it's always good to check out other sources...) (Some of the translations from the Hitchcock thingy are quite interesting... I've managed to piece together that "Dan" is "judgement" (Daniel, Judgment of God, Jordan, river of Judgment...), and "Uri" seems to meant "light/fire", and there's a few others that I managed to figure out...) - --emccoy@nh.ultranet.com // arcangel@io.com In Nomine Line Editor GURPS, Roleplayers, In Nomine stuff; Art: http://www.io.com/~arcangel/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:38:00 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim > > >> "Are Janus and Valefor the same being?" > > > > > > Why hasn't Dominic asked Janus this question? > > > > Dom's a Bal... > > Eh? What? How do you figure that? Old joke...search the archives for Dominic and Balseraph if you want the whole shooting match. I think it was originally one of Em's twisted ideas... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:38:00 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > >I would point out that the demon is hot in temperature only; why > >*any* angel would get it on with a Shedim is beyond me... > > [...] > Though I suppose that if one had a kinky streak... No, I won't go > there. I just won't go there. Not in public. Refer to > vap.alt.sex.shedim.drip.drip.drip... Thanks, no. I'll stick to vap.alt.sex.habbalah.I.can.take.it. (Just turned 18 yesterday, got my first tattoo today. I'm on a roll, folks...) Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:38:00 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> The 144,000 > >High-powered saints give a whole alternate hierarchy to Heaven for > >the GM who likes to roll their own. > > Unfortunately, In Nomine has already done this. Look at St. Dominic > (Dominicans, the Friars who ran the Inquisition), St. Laurence, St. > Christopher (no longer recognized by the R.C. Church), St. Marc > (Mark, the patron of Venice), or St. David (King David of Bethlehem) This may be (in some people's games, at least) a misnomer on the part of the Church, possibly caused by those angels using publically known vessels to do holy deeds. What were those saints sainted for? Another thing to consider - at least one source that I have been reading refers to Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael as saints, even while calling them archangels. So it may be that the term saint is used a bit more loosely in the Church. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #494 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.