From owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Tue Dec 2 12:33:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: from lists.io.com (lists.io.com [199.170.88.15]) by pyramid.sjgames.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA32603 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:33:29 -0600 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by lists.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id MAA24024 for in_nomine-digest-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:11:16 -0600 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:11:16 -0600 Message-Id: <199712021811.MAA24024@lists.io.com> From: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com (in_nomine-digest) To: in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Subject: in_nomine-digest V1 #495 Reply-To: in_nomine-l@lists.io.com Sender: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Errors-To: owner-in_nomine-digest@lists.io.com Precedence: bulk in_nomine-digest Tuesday, December 2 1997 Volume 01 : Number 495 In this digest: Re: Lilith (Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki)) Re: IN> The 144,000 Re: IN> Symphonic Truth IN> What to do after a vessel dies - I must be dense Re: Archangels and Christianity (was Re: IN> Theology) Re: IN> Seraphim Re: Archangels and Christianity (was Re: IN> Theology) Re: Archangels and Christianity (was Re: IN> Theology) Re: IN> Celestial genders Re: Archangels and Christianity (was Re: IN> Theology) Re: IN> Superiors' Notes IN> Just a heads-up... Re: IN> Seraphim Re: IN> Kyrio hit points IN> So who is this God person anyways? IN> Crib death Re: IN> So who is this God person anyways? Re: Lilith (Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki)) Re: IN> What to do after a vessel dies - I must be dense Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> So who is this God person anyways? Re: IN> Kyriotate and Nominous Corpus Re: IN> So who is this God person anyways? Re: IN> Strange Question Re: IN> Seraphim Re: Archangels and Christianity (was Re: IN> Theology) Re: IN> Seraphim Re: IN> The 144,000 Re: Lilith (Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki)) Re: IN> Seraphim Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord (was Re: Achmetha) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:38:00 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: Lilith (Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki)) > >(2). I know nothing about Lilith. Was she made from Adam's side > >as well? Why is she not mentioned in the Bible? Why is she > >female? When did her story first come to light? I sorta know about > >her role in the World of Darkness but neither White Wolf nor SJG > >explains these questions about her. > > Lilith is, IIRC, apocraphal. (Did I spell that right?) Apocryphal. > She shows up in certain Jewish (?) traditions, as a demon of crib > death and as Adam's first wife, who cut out on him after having > gobs of kids (who were not necessarily human...). Actually, the original source of the Lilith legend, the Alphabet of Ben Sira, is *not* very Jewish. The whole thing tends to be a pretty big broadside at Biblical characters, who are portrayed (variously) as fat, lazy, scheming, and unfeeling. However, Lilith did work her way into the Jewish faith, desipite the sordid source. The story you quoted is from the Alphabet. People interested in more should go to the following pages: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/lilith.html Has the Alphabet and other stories, as well as analysis of those stories. http://www.cjnetworks.com/~lilitu/lilith/khephera.html A hypertext paper on Lilith by a guy names Khephera. I haven't read it extensively, so judge for yourselves. Looks okay, though. Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:38:00 +0000 From: "Nathaniel Eliot" Subject: Re: IN> The 144,000 > On a more seasonal note, how about St. Nicholas? A perfectly real > saint, who just happens to have been swept up in the folklore and > hype around Christmas. Those aren't elves at the North Pole; > they're relievers. That would explain a lot, now wouldn't it? They haven't ever been seen, because their low Forces have enabled them to escape detection. And Nicholas is a Saintly servator of Yves with Master of Divine Knowledge. If you have to ask what Choir he took, you are not paying attention....;-) > Now, short of Armageddon, a GM might add interest or color to a game > involving Saints by distinguishing certain saints as members of the > 144K. These might be particularly heavy-duty, NPC saints. James > Bond saints, Green Beret saints, whathave you. Perhaps the > government of Heaven is bicameral and the 144,000 form a "House of > Commons" or "House of Representatives" to the Seraphim Council's > "Senate" or "House of Lords." Very nice stuff - I hadn't thought about Saints that much before, but now that I have Night Music, I will... Nathaniel Eliot temujin9@ix.netcom.com "It's the eternal question, really; to be a slave in Heaven, or a star in Hell. But sometimes Hell doesn't look like Hell. On a good day, it can look like LA." - Playing God ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:23:19 -0700 (MST) From: Kingsley Lintz Subject: Re: IN> Symphonic Truth > >A final point, and one which might get me flamed: > >Why doesn't a Seraph of Dominic, with 6 Celestial forces, and perception > >12, simply find some slob and ask him 'Why does God allow evil?'. The guy Well, it's been hashed over a couple times, but... > >says 'Because He doesn't care', the angel has an automatic success on his > >resonance, with check digit 7-12, and instantly knows The Truth, whatever One note that's been suggested many a time, which our dearest Archangel didn't go into, is that Resonance check digits -don't- go over six, particularly regarding the Perceptive ones. Personally, I go the step further and suggest that you don't GET check digit bonuses on them, except for Resonance-specific modifiers (per p.57) and Essence spent, on the grounds that Resonance is too much...core nature. It's a fact of being, not a learned skill. {Personally, I think even Dominic has to take the dice, but Archangels DO have the advantage of effectively unlimited Essence to burn, so he can get himself the regular 6 check digits anyway.} Archangel Beth replied (in LE/GM-only mode) > There are some Truths that cannot be held in consciousness outside of > the upper Heavens. Myself, I still find this one kind of cheap, but there you are... > Hem. And the other thing, as Prince David () points out, is > that GMs should generally restrict Symphonic Truth results to things > that directly concern the person being asked. There has to be that This is the tack I tend to take on it. You can get Answers relevant to the bit of the Symphony you're asking, but even on a 6, no mere Angel is good enough to question the -WHOLE- Symphony... > thematic connection, to get the Whole Truth. (So if you ask someone, > "Do you think your wife is seeing someone else?" and he says "No," > you could get: "He believes she's not, but the Truth is that she's > got a whole string on the side." But if you ask J. Random Human, > "Do you think Mrs. Jones is cheating on her husband?" and the > guy goes, "Oh, sure -- women do it all the time," the most you could > get is "He doesn't know the Truth about Mrs. Jones." Since he knows > nothing of her, the Symphony simply can't reveal anything. Which I'd agree with, save the note that on a six with J.R.H., I'd probably offer tidbits like, "...though he uses this as his excuse why he's cheating on HIS wife," since it's a bit of Symphonic truth about Mr. Human that pertains somewhat to the question asked... (So if you went with the, "Why does God permit evil?" question, you'd get back, "Turns out God hasn't vouchsafed that to this particular Note, but on a related note, he thinks his boss allows Cher to leave 15 minutes early every day because she wears those low-cut blouses.") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 00:31:53 -0500 From: David Edelstein Subject: IN> What to do after a vessel dies - I must be dense There isn't really a canon answer (and personally, I think that's a glaring oversight), BUT, I tend to handle it on a case by case basis, and assume that a celestial who dies valiantly and competently defending his Superior's Word will be given a free replacement vessel by his Superior. The less "valiant" and "competent" the death was, the less the Superior will replace for free... I.e. if you had a Vessel/3 and walked into an obvious trap that you'd been warned about and get your vessel scragged (but you WERE actually carrying out your Superior's orders) your Superior might say "All right dimwit, I'll give you a new vessel, but I'm not giving you a really good one until you prove you can take care of them", and send you back to Earth with a Vessel/1. If you got killed acting like an idiot and were on your Superior's s*** list anyway, then your Superior might give you Vessel/1 AND some Discord to go with it. (Realistically, we might assume that Superiors won't give a real screw-up a new vessel at all, but since that would effectively take a PC out of play unless he has the character points to spend-- or unless the GM is willing to run adventures for that character in Heaven or Hell as he tries to work his way back into his Superior's good graces again -- you should probably let the PC have a vessel, but he *owes* for it. Discord is a good way to represent that debt, although you could just say he now has a negative character point balance and the next few he earns will have to pay off the vessel.) Malakim probably get cut more slack than anyone else, since they're _supposed_ to dive into mortal combat whenever they have the opportunity (though even a Malakite who throws his life away needlessly might annoy his Archangel -- fearlessness is good, recklessness isn't). - -David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 00:49:19 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: Archangels and Christianity (was Re: IN> Theology) On Mon, 1 Dec 1997 gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > Here are my theories about it. Janus would be the patron Archangel of the > Protestant movement in general; after all, he doesn't like things to be > static and unchanging, and the Martin Luther got things shaken up pretty > well in regards to the Catholic church. Mm...sort of. Martin Luther didn't -mean- to cause a schism; he merely wanted to bring to light some practices of the church that he found troubling, and correct them internally. The squabble that resulted certainly seems like Janus, but I'm more inclined to think that Yves was behind it all. (Yves is behind everything. -Everything-. It's a conspiracy, I tell ya.) > Michael might not be the patron > of any sect in particular, but he would look with favor on any sect that > was just starting out (because they would have to fight for survival) In my games, Michael and David are the patrons of Judaism. > or > any group that believes in active missionary work (because proselyting > missionaries tend to see themselves as soldiers in a war), as long as they > were sincerely trying to serve God. Like the Jesuits? They're practically the Green Berets of the RCC. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 00:57:13 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > > > Dom's a Bal... > > > > Eh? What? How do you figure that? > > Old joke...search the archives for Dominic and Balseraph if you want > the whole shooting match. I think it was originally one of Em's Actually, it was mine. It just -sounds- like something Em would come up with. Every so often, I get wacky ideas like this while standing in the shower. It all hinges on the fact that he's always wearing that cloak..what's he trying to hide? Check the INC webpages for the full details. (Gotta plug my Superior's product. ;:;) - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 00:12:45 -0600 (CST) From: redneck@txdirect.net (Redneck Gaijin) Subject: Re: Archangels and Christianity (was Re: IN> Theology) >On Mon, 1 Dec 1997 gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > >> Here are my theories about it. Janus would be the patron Archangel of the >> Protestant movement in general; after all, he doesn't like things to be >> static and unchanging, and the Martin Luther got things shaken up pretty >> well in regards to the Catholic church. > >Mm...sort of. Martin Luther didn't -mean- to cause a schism; he merely >wanted to bring to light some practices of the church that he found >troubling, and correct them internally. The squabble that resulted >certainly seems like Janus, but I'm more inclined to think that Yves was >behind it all. > >(Yves is behind everything. -Everything-. It's a conspiracy, I tell ya.) > Actually, according to Night Music, it was -Laurence- who set up Martin Luther to begin reform in the Church. What Luther actually did taught Laurence to treat humans like, well, people. Since he never learned this about -angels,- though, this is known as Laurence's Last Lesson. Redneck Kris Overstreet, will write for food... | "Hmmm... Sugar Plum Fairies." http://www.txdirect.net/users/redneck | --- Haagenti at the ballet c/o White Lightning Productions | * * * * * * http://www.jurai.net/~redneck/wlp/ | "MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!" Webmaster for Antarctic Press | --- Laurence and Haagenti http://www.antarctic-press.com/ | ***QUESTION EVERYTHING*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 01:25:36 -0500 (EST) From: Casca Subject: Re: Archangels and Christianity (was Re: IN> Theology) On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Redneck Gaijin wrote: > >(Yves is behind everything. -Everything-. It's a conspiracy, I tell ya.) > > > Actually, according to Night Music, it was -Laurence- who set up Martin > Luther to begin reform in the Church. What Luther actually did taught > Laurence to treat humans like, well, people. Since he never learned this > about -angels,- though, this is known as Laurence's Last Lesson. I never said that Laurence didn't set up ML...I simply said that Yves was behind it all. Perhaps he obliquely suggested it to Laurence in such a vague way that the Sword took it as his own idea....I mean, it taught Laurence a valuable lesson, didn't it? Changed the way he saw humans, and therefore how he fought the war. Sounds like Destiny to me.... -especially- given Yves' comments in the NM writeup. Just because someone is behind something doesn't mean they did it. - -- Casca, Seraph of Archives (bertishg@db.erau.edu) "...I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above Him were seraphs, each with six wings: with two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying...At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook, and the temple was filled with smoke." -- Isaiah 6:2,4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:12:31 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Celestial genders Elizabeth McCoy wrote: >(Some of the translations from the Hitchcock thingy are quite >interesting... I've managed to piece together that "Dan" is >"judgement" (Daniel, Judgment of God, Jordan, river of Judgment...), >and "Uri" seems to meant "light/fire", and there's a few others that >I managed to figure out...) Yep, 'dan' does roughly mean judgement (a 'din' is a specific type of law -- one which is laid down without any reasoning -- most divine laws are 'dins' [like I said, if 2 hebrew words are based on the same root you can assume they'll have related meanings]). For Gabriel, 'Geber' is something I've seen translated as 'might' or 'strength' which is where 'strength of God' would come from. You are sort of close with Uri, but the actual word for light is 'Aur'. Uriel is taken from the same root, I think -- I have a friend whose name is Orli, again from the same root (you have to try not to get too distracted by the vowels). It translates as 'My light' which is kind of sweet. The word for fire is 'Esh'. jo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:21:00 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: Archangels and Christianity (was Re: IN> Theology) Casca wrote: >(Yves is behind everything. -Everything-. It's a conspiracy, I tell ya.) What if... Yves was unintentionally behind the Fall. He invented his Divine Logic attunement and taught it to some eager young Seraph, accidentally inventing the first balseraph. (and Jean coughed and said 'OK boss, how about you leave the experimentation to me in future?') jo What if.. Saminga's oppressed minions discovered trade unionism and called a general strike... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:16:45 -0000 From: "Hart, Joanna" Subject: Re: IN> Superiors' Notes Emily Dresner wrote: >Nybbas channels it into >frivolous, meaningless and overall gratuitious displays of selfishness for >everyone to see, and people can't get with his program fast enough. It >doesn't get anyone to explore their own creativity except those doing the >creating, it forces people to sit there and accept what Nybbas and Crew >churn out, be it mentally stimulating Discovery Channel or Urkel. But I >keep in mind, on his picture in the source book, that one of the TVs has a >picture of Eli. It makes people passive. It's a most interesting version >of Sloth. Absolutely! Nybbas and his demons aren't creative, they're just leeches. (You wondered where Eli was? He ain't wandering the world spreading his word and converting renegades; he's just sitting in a cheap hotel room, glued to the box.. Those ambiguous errands he sends his remaining servitors on? 'Uh.. can you pick up a pizza and a bottle of coke for me on the way through?' ). Although some of those programmes are genuinely educational, very few of them encourage the viewer to turn off their TV set and do something more fulfilling instead. So whats the use of all that education if you don't do anything with it? Sloth indeed ;-) I find Nybbas to be one of Hell's most sinister nobility -- you get this feeling that if he ever took those glasses off there'd be nothing behind them. >Kobal is a different thing entirely. It takes a real obnoxious character >to make it in his organization, but anyone can play stupid little pranks. >Political commentary, long stand-up routines, even laughing out loud in >church or during a funeral may be rude, nasty, and horrible, but people >will certainly talk about it later and if it's really good, a long time to >come. (Wow, we agree again ;-) ). I think his demons probably are genuinely creative, maybe the only really creative force in hell (although some of the Tartarus researchers can get close they're more inventive than creative ;) ) -- shame they're bending all their efforts into mockery really. Satire & irony are very two-edged swords, and I'm sure he swings them both ways and takes a shot at hell as often as at heaven. So why do the other DPs tolerate it? Either they totally don't get the jokes, or else find it amusing, or useful, or else they're trying to get rid of him or.. like Lucifer, they can maybe see that dark humour is the only thing which makes hell habitable. Its a shame about the over exposure via TV though -- although comedies rake in the audience figures, they're losing their punch. (I'm not really sure about funny shows becoming fewer and further between .. maybe I have a different perspective, being in the UK). jo (I'm not really the demon of annoying mobile phone ring-tones, honest) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 07:44:59 -0500 From: David Wood Subject: IN> Just a heads-up... I've been posting on and off here for some time, and I've been including the URL of my webpage. But I hadn't been advertising the fairly extensive In Nomine section chronicling the campaign I've been running. You can get my URL from any of my signatures, but to get to My Own Private Blasphemy (Idaho just isn't Infernal enough), tune to: http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/tabletop/innomine/index.htm (This is the proper link/warning page; I felt like playing it safe that day.) I'd enjoy hearing people's comments... - -David http://www.bluecrab.org/members/dwood/ No, not THAT David. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 07:59:46 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim > > > Dom's a Bal... > > > > Eh? What? How do you figure that? > > Old joke...search the archives for Dominic and Balseraph if you want > the whole shooting match. I think it was originally one of Em's > twisted ideas... > *bow head in shame* I didn't originally post it, but I certainly helped it along. - - Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 13:28:55 +0000 From: Sam Kington Subject: Re: IN> Kyrio hit points Elizabeth McCoy wrote: [snip] > Kyrios treat the host body as a vessel of level equal to the > host's Corporeal Forces plus any Toughness. So Body hits=Strength x (Kyrio Corporeal Forces + host Corporeal Forces + host Toughness) Sounds good to me. Sam - -- Home page: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/ INWO Homebrew: http://www.illuminated.co.uk/cgi/illuminati I used to be indecisive but now I'm not so sure. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:31:58 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: IN> So who is this God person anyways? On Dec 1, 12:33pm, gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Re: in_nomine-digest V1 #487 > > > On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Corey wrote: > > > But _if_ God is truly omniscient and omnipotent, then he must be held > > responsible for the evil in the world, as well as the good. To continue > > with your example, he created and set in motion the the hedge maze. > > Therefore he is responsible for all the things in the maze. > > No. Not if you believe that humans have free will. If you believe that, > then God is not responsible for evil. He merely allows it to continue for > a time. Why? Because, as free beings, humans have to be given a real > choice between good and evil. Without evil being allowed to exist for a > time, there would be no real freedom to choose good. After all, if all > you can choose is "X", then how free are you when you choose it? All these arguments fall into the category of "Can God make a rock so big that he can't lift it?" If He truly is omnipotent and omniscient then he can see the results of all possible actions and has the power to make any event occur with full foreknowledge Unless He Chooses Not To. So, in essence, God in granting free will is voluntarily either limiting his own Omniscience or his omnipotence... from our point of view. (Either "I choose not see the result of my actions" or "I will not use my full powers to make the result I desire come about") My (non-Canon) guess is that in In Nomine God has limited Omniscience. He knows everything that Is and Was but not everything that Will Be. He's the best pool shooter in the universe and he's made an agreement (with himself) not to cheat by moving the balls around directly or peeking into the future. OTOH, God could be totally ineffable. What we think of as 'Good' is totally wrong and the omnibenevolent God is doing what's best for the entire universe, but we are too small to see the big picture. ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:38:27 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: IN> Crib death > >(2). I know nothing about Lilith. Was she made from Adam's side as well? > >Why is she not mentioned in the Bible? Why is she female? When did her > >story frist come to light? I sorta know about her role in the World of > >Darkness but neither White Wolf nor SJG explains these questions about her. > > Lilith is, IIRC, apocraphal. (Did I spell that right?) She shows up > in certain Jewish (?) traditions, as a demon of crib death and as > Adam's first wife, who cut out on him after having gobs of kids > (who were not necessarily human...). Speaking of crib death, there is a growing pile of evidence that sudden infant death syndrome (I'm not sure if that is the proper name) is a lot less common than people thought. What was really happening is simply infanticide by people (usually mothers) that wanted to do in their children. Researchers invented this syndrome, I believe, because they didn't want to believe that a mother would suffocate FIVE of her own children on separate occasions. What does this have to do with In Nomine? Well it seems that this would make a GREAT word for a demon. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 09:42:07 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: IN> So who is this God person anyways? John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > My (non-Canon) guess is that in In Nomine God has limited > Omniscience. He knows everything that Is and Was but not everything > that Will Be. He's the best pool shooter in the universe and he's > made an agreement (with himself) not to cheat by moving the balls > around directly or peeking into the future. This is the position of Process Theology, a modern branch of theology founded by Harteshorne and Whitehead, with earlier contri- butions by Henri Bergson. Mainstream Christian theology is split on this. The "Arminian" position is that God "limits" His omnipotence in that He does not dictate the outcome of all events, specifically the choices of free moral agents. The Calvinistic position is that God doesn't limit anything. Islam, so far as I know, tends to side with Calvin on this. I don't know about Judaism. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 09:46:28 -0500 From: Earl Wajenberg Subject: Re: Lilith (Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki)) Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > Actually, the original source of the Lilith legend, the Alphabet of > Ben Sira, is *not* very Jewish. The whole thing tends to be a pretty > big broadside at Biblical characters, who are portrayed (variously) > as fat, lazy, scheming, and unfeeling. However, Lilith did work her > way into the Jewish faith, desipite the sordid source. Lilith had a minor part in Jewish folklore before the Ben Sira story, though you are certainly right about that story forming the core of the current legend. In the earlier versions, Lilith was not Adam's first wife; he was occasionally said to have had an extra-marital fling with her and thus sired the Lilim, but that was all. She was just a succubus figure, also responsible for the deaths of infants and young men. Earl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:23:30 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> What to do after a vessel dies - I must be dense > >1) Do I understand the mechanics right? Or have I missed something? > > Mostly, though there is text that implies you *can't* go to the > corporeal realm without a vessel (unless you're a reliever or > equivalent). I also allow (close to Canon, but not quite yet) angels/demons to go down via tethers. Of course they have to go in celestial form and there are definite limits on that! The guidelines that Beth posted are pretty close to what I use (I'm a little bit kinder in the 'upper' categories). One thing to keep in mind is that the vast majority of 9+ Force angels and demons with vessels are the valued servants/resources of the Superiors on earth. Those superiors invest a lot of time and energy into them, but want to see a reasonable return for their efforts (if they don't, they'll use different agents). If a character is doing well, but got unlucky, then fixing him up and sending him back is very reasonable. If a character is doing poorly (failing missions, not supporting the superior's Word) the superior has doubts as to whether the servitor is worth the effort so is less likely to expend a lot of energy. - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:25:33 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question On Dec 1, 9:38pm, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question > > >I would point out that the demon is hot in temperature only; why > > >*any* angel would get it on with a Shedim is beyond me... > > > > [...] > > Though I suppose that if one had a kinky streak... No, I won't go > > there. I just won't go there. Not in public. Refer to > > vap.alt.sex.shedim.drip.drip.drip... > > Thanks, no. I'll stick to vap.alt.sex.habbalah.I.can.take.it. > > (Just turned 18 yesterday, got my first tattoo today. I'm on a roll, > folks...) What do y'all think: Shedim possession? ;) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:32:48 -0500 From: johnk@lucent.com (John Karakash - Lucent ASCC) Subject: Re: IN> So who is this God person anyways? On Dec 2, 9:42am, Earl Wajenberg wrote: > Subject: Re: IN> So who is this God person anyways? > John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: > > > My (non-Canon) guess is that in In Nomine God has limited > > Omniscience. He knows everything that Is and Was but not everything > > that Will Be. He's the best pool shooter in the universe and he's > > made an agreement (with himself) not to cheat by moving the balls > > around directly or peeking into the future. > > This is the position of Process Theology, a modern branch of > theology founded by Harteshorne and Whitehead, with earlier contri- > butions by Henri Bergson. Heh. I'm glad that my position has a name... gives it more class, it does. Thanks! I kinda assumed that most any theological idea I came up with would have been hashed out centuries ago. I guess it's refreshing to see that theology isn't moribund and constantly debating over points that have been debated over in the 13th century. =) - -- ___________________________________________________ / \ |John Karakash - Lucent Technologies (formerly AT&T) | | (919)380-4629 | | | | The power to tax involves the power to destroy. | | -Chief Justice Marshall | \___________________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:03:09 -0600 (CST) From: Martin Leslie Leuschen Subject: Re: IN> Kyriotate and Nominous Corpus 'Er 'oliness Beth inscrivid: ************** [...] If, however, it abandons one of those hosts for two smaller ones (call it 2 cats), only one of those will get Claws "automatically." It must sing Claws a fourth time for all four hosts to use that NC. [...] *********************** So what's the penalty involved in using NC Claws (6) in a cat vessel. (Cat with 1 foot claws!?) What about a mouse vessel? (Mouse with 1' claws!!!!?????) What about a swarm of insects? (Mosquitos with 1' claws?!!!????) Don't forget yer bug repellent guys, the swamp just got a whole lot mo' dangeruss. Regards, Martin Leuschen martinl@rice.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 10:00:46 -0600 From: Corey Subject: Re: IN> So who is this God person anyways? At 10:32 AM 12/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >On Dec 2, 9:42am, Earl Wajenberg wrote: >> Subject: Re: IN> So who is this God person anyways? >> John Karakash - Lucent ASCC wrote: >> >> > My (non-Canon) guess is that in In Nomine God has limited >> > Omniscience. He knows everything that Is and Was but not everything >> > that Will Be. He's the best pool shooter in the universe and he's >> > made an agreement (with himself) not to cheat by moving the balls >> > around directly or peeking into the future. >> >> This is the position of Process Theology, a modern branch of >> theology founded by Harteshorne and Whitehead, with earlier contri- >> butions by Henri Bergson. > > Heh. I'm glad that my position has a name... gives it >more class, it does. Thanks! > I kinda assumed that most any theological idea I came >up with would have been hashed out centuries ago. I guess it's >refreshing to see that theology isn't moribund and constantly >debating over points that have been debated over in the 13th >century. =) Wow, hardly expected this great a response to my first post. Thanks guys, its been very enlightening. Corey - --"I see the end in every beginning. I hear the last word echo in the first. I do not desire, or dream, or destroy. I do not despair, or delight. I know." -Destiny. "Destiny: A Chronicle of Death's Foretold" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 11:48:58 -0500 From: Jesse Rooney Subject: Re: IN> Strange Question >> > >I would point out that the demon is hot in temperature only; why >> > >*any* angel would get it on with a Shedim is beyond me... >> > >> > [...] >> > Though I suppose that if one had a kinky streak... No, I won't go >> > there. I just won't go there. Not in public. Refer to >> > vap.alt.sex.shedim.drip.drip.drip... >> >> Thanks, no. I'll stick to vap.alt.sex.habbalah.I.can.take.it. >> >> (Just turned 18 yesterday, got my first tattoo today. I'm on a roll, >> folks...) > > What do y'all think: Shedim possession? ;) Well let's see here... 18 huh? That's (quick math) 6 shots of tequila for you! - -Jesse Ofanite of Tequila, enjoys supporting his Word. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 12:16:19 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Nathaniel Eliot wrote: > Old joke...search the archives for Dominic and Balseraph if you want > the whole shooting match. I think it was originally one of Em's > twisted ideas... So, how _do_ you search the list archives? I've tried it from the Steve Jackson website, and keep getting told the fnords ate them. Is there some other way? Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 12:28:28 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: Archangels and Christianity (was Re: IN> Theology) On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Casca wrote: > On Mon, 1 Dec 1997 gantr@NKU.EDU wrote: > > > Here are my theories about it. Janus would be the patron Archangel of the > > Protestant movement in general; after all, he doesn't like things to be > > static and unchanging, and the Martin Luther got things shaken up pretty > > well in regards to the Catholic church. > > Mm...sort of. Martin Luther didn't -mean- to cause a schism; he merely > wanted to bring to light some practices of the church that he found > troubling, and correct them internally. I'd still go with Janus, possibly at the instigation of Yves. I know that Martin Luther wasn't trying to cause a schism, but it wouldn't have taken a lot of thought to realize that one would happen anyway. The Catholic Church wasn't the most open of organizations at the time. > (Yves is behind everything. -Everything-. It's a conspiracy, I tell ya.) Does Yves have a pyramid with a lidless eye in it as one of his vessels? :) > In my games, Michael and David are the patrons of Judaism. Well, I'm not saying that they wouldn't be. I was just talking about who supported particular Christian sects. Personally, in my campaign, I have Dominic as one of the patrons of Judaism. I figure that if anyone had a hand in the Law of Moses, it was Dominic. Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 12:31:16 -0400 (EDT) From: gantr@NKU.EDU Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Casca wrote: > Actually, it was mine. It just -sounds- like something Em would come up with. > Every so often, I get wacky ideas like this while standing in the shower. > It all hinges on the fact that he's always wearing that cloak..what's he > trying to hide? His poor fashion sense? Seriously, now. In my campaign he wears it to disguise the fact that he looks like somebody's stern but kind grandfather, and then only when he is despensing justice. > Check the INC webpages for the full details. (Gotta plug my Superior's > product. ;:;) I'll do that. Nice seraph smile, by the way. :) Rich Gant ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:36:56 EST From: MarkDEddy Subject: Re: IN> The 144,000 In a message dated 12/2/97 9:12:34 AM, jrooney@moose.uvm.edu writes: >>patron of Venice), or St. David (King David of Bethlehem)> >David is not a Saint, I should know, I am his father. >-Jesse I think this was a joke, but there actually is a point to it. King David is only a Saint in the Orthodox tradition; neither the Roman nor the Anglican tradition lists him in their Haggiographies. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:46:13 +0100 (MET) From: David Skogsberg Subject: Re: Lilith (Re: IN> Angels and Souls (was Angelaki)) On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 7:45 PM -0500 11/23/97, Jesse Rooney wrote: > > >(1). What is Kult? > > It's another RPG with a religious slant. Gnostic, mostly, IIR the desginer's notes C. Of course, Kult has much more of a nihilistic than a religious slant. cd - -- cd skogsberg | d97skog@dtek.chalmers.se Starving Freshthing at Chalmers University, Dept. of Computer Science and Technology ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:51:22 -0500 (EST) From: Emily Dresner Subject: Re: IN> Seraphim > > His poor fashion sense? Hee hee hee. Casca's original writeup was rocking, and it lent to a most amazing yet entertaining little 'discussion', right from Sheol. His poor fashion sense indeed. And I believe Kingsley filled it out with most of the rational. > > Seriously, now. In my campaign he wears it to disguise the fact that he > looks like somebody's stern but kind grandfather, and then only when he is > despensing justice. Nah, he wears bondage gear. - - Em, Avoiding the Deadly Gaze of an Evil Dominic. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:07:03 +0100 (MET) From: David Skogsberg Subject: Re: IN> An Awful Noise in the Name of the Lord (was Re: Achmetha) On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Elizabeth McCoy wrote: > At 11:39 AM -0500 11/23/97, David Wood wrote: > > >The farthest away the good ones can be and still automatically detect it > >is 1800*6.1 = 10980 miles ...and the Earth is only 8,000 miles in > >diameter as the crow burrows (or swims through that molten part in the > >middle). Since it's a Celestial sound, it wouldn't be slowed down by > >earth, would it? [Canon Request] > > That's what I'd rule -- celestial noise can cross the Earth's core. > (And radiate out into space, for that matter, so if there are any > celestials on the moon...) Hmmmm. Weird Idea. A (slightly deranged) Habbalite of Vapula, formerly an Elohite of David, who, together with his trusty assistant, conducts seismic mappings of the Earth's core by killing humans and surveying Divine reactions around the globe. And let's not forget the (Vapulan) who used to belong to Janus, who is trying to research the speed of sound in the Symphony compared to lightspeed, by co-operating with Seismo-boy and stands on the moon when Seismo kills someone and simulaneously points a laser at the moon... Just the thing to confuse your players with. > >[Canon Question] How big is the freakin' UNIVERSE? > > You people are being *mean* to me! I don't have the > Hawkings book with me. "Space is big. Really big." -- HHGTTG cd Ofanite of Beth tonight, on a caffeine and sugar buzz... - -- cd skogsberg | d97skog@dtek.chalmers.se Starving Freshthing at Chalmers University, Dept. of Computer Science and Technology ------------------------------ End of in_nomine-digest V1 #495 ******************************* The material here is (C) 1997 Steve Jackson Games, Incorporated. All rights reserved.